Tik Maynard Clinic in Oxfordshire in August

[Ambers Echo]

Anyone know anything about Tik Maynard?

On paper he sounds right up my street as I love Guy Robertson/Mark Rashid/ Buck Brannaman etc and he sounds similar. But is an eventer and that is something I have never found before. All the others come from a ranching/Western riding tradition.

https://www.organisedequestrian.com/tik-maynard-clinic-2019/

I can;t justify the cost as a rider but I am very keen to spectate unless someone knows more about it and can warn me off!

 

[Alibear]

I've read his book and he seems good, he has spent time with top trainers in every discipline so has a good broad base of knowledge.
Book on amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/Middle-Are...nard&qid=1558444362&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull

 

[TPO]

That sounds really good.

I read his book but I do have to admit that I struggled with it. He is also a writer and I found the book too "I am a writer" (e.g. As I basked in the dappled sunlight and felt the warm glow of the day upon my skin (paraphrasing but very descriptive/flowery to me) and that detracted from my enjoyment. The stories didn't flow in the same way that Mark Rashid's do if that makes any sense? However despite not being a "how to" book there is lots to learn and pick up from it in the same way as you do from a MR book. He is what I would class as a horseman rather than an "eventer" iykwim?

The only condition of going must be that you provide a full clinic write up afterwards

 

[Ambers Echo]

He is what I would class as a horseman rather than an "eventer" iykwim?

TPO that' s the gap I want to bridge - how to apply the horsemanship principles of MR etc to eventing. I love my RI but in dressage she has me riding with a strong contact for example. Whereas MR/BB are all about the soft feel. I don't know how to ride a dressage test with a soft feel. How to maintain a frame with a soft feel. Or how to ride XC without bitting up for it. Though I know Michael Jung rides his horses XC in a snaffle. In schooling I am either practicing things I have learned from Guy, Buck or Mark or practicing things I am learning from my current instructors. But the 2 types of practice are very different. Amber seems to adapt happily between the 2 without confusion but I'd rather blend them somehow - or choose an approach and use it consistently - than to one day be practicing no rein transitions and the next day be practicing holding her in a frame through transitions.

 

[splashgirl45]

once your horse is balanced and using her back end properly she should become lighter in the contact. i think quite a few dressage instructors make you hold on to the front end at first, not something i was happy with but found as my horse starting working from her back end correctly the front lightened so maybe they are right. i had been working on lots of transitions and change of bend etc and couldnt get the same result....mind you i only got as far as novice dressage !!!!! so i am def no expert...

 

[be positive]

once your horse is balanced and using her back end properly she should become lighter in the contact. i think quite a few dressage instructors make you hold on to the front end at first, not something i was happy with but found as my horse starting working from her back end correctly the front lightened so maybe they are right. i had been working on lots of transitions and change of bend etc and couldnt get the same result....mind you i only got as far as novice dressage !!!!! so i am def no expert...

Until the horse and rider are balanced, the horse is strong enough to carry itself, is secure in the contact and on the aids most will be a bit heavy in the hand, aiming to get them light in the hand is part of the training process not a stand alone aim, many that feel light are not actually working correctly from behind and can often also be btv which is not going to help the dressage scores even if it feels good to the rider.

I think there is middle ground where the horse is light, soft and going correctly but for the average rider it is not easy to achieve without going through the stronger phase where the horse is needing more help to maintain it's balance and work in a frame while it develops the strength to carry itself and the rider correctly, throw into the mix jumping and competing and it makes matters even more tricky.

 

[splashgirl45]

thankyou BP that explains it much better than i could,

 

[Leo Walker]

Until the horse and rider are balanced, the horse is strong enough to carry itself, is secure in the contact and on the aids most will be a bit heavy in the hand, aiming to get them light in the hand is part of the training process not a stand alone aim, many that feel light are not actually working correctly from behind and can often also be btv which is not going to help the dressage scores even if it feels good to the rider.

I think there is middle ground where the horse is light, soft and going correctly but for the average rider it is not easy to achieve without going through the stronger phase where the horse is needing more help to maintain it's balance and work in a frame while it develops the strength to carry itself and the rider correctly, throw into the mix jumping and competing and it makes matters even more tricky.

Yup, this. A friend drove mine tonight and I had to tell her to take much more of a contact. I liken it to holding their hand. You are providing them with support through the contact until they are strong enough to support themselves.

 

[Ambers Echo]

That does make sense but why then do the Western riders never do that? They do work in collection - at least Buck does. If you watch his videos, his horses are athletic and balanced and collected. But he never supports a horse's head through the contact. At least as far as I can work out from the training DVDs and what he says at demos.

 

[splashgirl45]

the western riders are usually using a much stronger bit than we do so they dont keep a contact.... we have to ride dressage tests in the conventional way so we need to have a contact..

 

[Ambers Echo]

Mark Rashid rides in a snaffle. Buck rides all his green horses in a snaffle. I can't quite work out why but he progresses onto curb bits once the horses are established.

The whole concept of contact confuses me tbh! I listen to my RI who says Amber needs support and I need to be more secure in the contact and that makes perfect sense. And then I listen to Buck B who says the completely opposite thing - horses are taught to be dead in the mouth by strong contact. In fact he says the 2 wrinkles in the corner of the mouth advice means that they experience unnecessary pressure from the bit all the time which they need to learn to ignore. So there should be no wrinkles and from day 1 they should be taught to respond to rein weight only an to give at the poll to very light pressure (rein weight) and that also makes perfect sense!

My RI says that you need to generate energy from behind and then ride forward into a contact. Mark Rashid said that you need to soften and lighten the head/neck/jaw before generating energy from behind otherwise it's like 'driving a car into a wall'. So he (and Buck) spend ages in halt just picking up the rein, expecting the horse to immediately soften/flex at the poll - which sounds a bit like the false outline discussed above. But then Mark does generate the energy from behind once he has the softness.

Basically I have no idea what I think anymore! But I would love to talk to a person who uses Western idea in his riding AND events to a high level so I think I will go along in August and find out more.

 

[TPO]

the western riders are usually using a much stronger bit than we do so they dont keep a contact.... we have to ride dressage tests in the conventional way so we need to have a contact..

This is a fallacy based on a lot of established western horses being in a curb. The contact is very light and the curb should stay on the vertical. What is transmitted to the horse should be even lighter than snaffle aids and skilled horse(wo)men can ride a curb with one length of tail hair in place of leather reins so subtle are the aids.

However the horse is still ridden in a contact, is balance and working from behind despite the contact being light.

It all comes from having a horse forward and responsive.

 

[JFTDWS]

I don't really like the strong contact approach to dressage / schooling, and in my experience it's not necessary or desirable for any of the horses I've had. That's not to say I don't take a contact at times, nor is it to say I ride in a western style. I don't like "weight" in my hands, and I don't think my horses do either.

 

[Mule]

Mark Rashid rides in a snaffle. Buck rides all his green horses in a snaffle. I can't quite work out why but he progresses onto curb bits once the horses are established.

The whole concept of contact confuses me tbh! I listen to my RI who says Amber needs support and I need to be more secure in the contact and that makes perfect sense. And then I listen to Buck B who says the completely opposite thing - horses are taught to be dead in the mouth by strong contact. In fact he says the 2 wrinkles in the corner of the mouth advice means that they experience unnecessary pressure from the bit all the time which they need to learn to ignore. So there should be no wrinkles and from day 1 they should be taught to respond to rein weight only an to give at the poll to very light pressure (rein weight) and that also makes perfect sense!

My RI says that you need to generate energy from behind and then ride forward into a contact. Mark Rashid said that you need to soften and lighten the head/neck/jaw before generating energy from behind otherwise it's like 'driving a car into a wall'. So he (and Buck) spend ages in halt just picking up the rein, expecting the horse to immediately soften/flex at the poll - which sounds a bit like the false outline discussed above. But then Mark does generate the energy from behind once he has the softness.

Basically I have no idea what I think anymore! But I would love to talk to a person who uses Western idea in his riding AND events to a high level so I think I will go along in August and find out more.

I had a couple of lessons with an enlightened equitation instructor. She taught me to ride the horse on the bit with very light pressure. It was a bit like the western riders as she taught me to teach the horse to respond to a progressively lighter feel. We also did lots of lateral work to engage his back. She also taught me to hold a very steady contact so the horse would move in to it willingly.

My previous instructor taught me to kick to get the back up and sponge left and right with the reins. Because my hands were moving my reins kept getting too long. I much prefer my new way of riding. The horse is much happier too.

I think there's a lot to be learned from the good western riders. I like how the give the horse a complete release and time to digest things after learning something new.

 

[TheMule]

The way I see it, there are many different ways to train a horse and most of them have the same aim. The flexions are to create reactivity in the horse so a tiny touch gets the desired response- you have to train the horse to be light in the contact, which takes skilled hands and time. You can then have a 'conversation' with the horse with a very light touch. Riding leg to hand doesn't have to mean leg on to a strong contact, it just means that both systems are communicating with the horse to micro-adjust.
The heavy hands of modern dressage are a shortcut- you manipulate the horse to where you want it then ease the pressure and reapply it if the horse moves from that place. It's easier, it's quicker, it works. But is it the right way for the horse?

Anyway, I've only found a couple of decent instructors in England. Demelza Hawes is worth looking up, she is the closest I've found to the system it sounds like you want, though she only visits a few times a year.

 

[Mule]

The way I see it, there are many different ways to train a horse and most of them have the same aim. The flexions are to create reactivity in the horse so a tiny touch gets the desired response- you have to train the horse to be light in the contact, which takes skilled hands and time. You can then have a 'conversation' with the horse with a very light touch. Riding leg to hand doesn't have to mean leg on to a strong contact, it just means that both systems are communicating with the horse to micro-adjust.
The heavy hands of modern dressage are a shortcut- you manipulate the horse to where you want it then ease the pressure and reapply it if the horse moves from that place. It's easier, it's quicker, it works. But is it the right way for the horse?

Anyway, I've only found a couple of decent instructors in England. Demelza Hawes is worth looking up, she is the closest I've found to the system it sounds like you want, though she only visits a few times a year.

I've found the light contact is like having a pleasant conversation and the more physical approach is like having an argument.
My horse is a bit mulish by nature. The way to get his cooperation is to let him think what you want him to do is really his idea. I think his temperament is why he responds so much better to sympathetic riding.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks Mule, that's really interesting. I have ordered Tik's book. I'll read it first then decide if I am going to book on as a spectator.

I have tried classical dressage for almost a year now - deciding that there are probably many ways to achieve the same eventual aims and I just needed consistency. I did not like how heavy the contact felt but decided I just did not know enough to have an informed view on it and so did what I was told. If my scores had improved and Amber felt better I'd stick with it. But my scores are as terrible as ever and I don't really think Amber likes being ridden like that tbh.

 

[Leo Walker]

Theres a huge difference between a secure and elastic contact and a heavy, tight hold on the horses head. My preference is slobbing along, reins loose in one hand away with the fairies, but thats no good for anyone. Equally a heavy, fiddly contact and driving leg aids makes me cringe. Its finding the balance between the two that works for you and your horse and thats the hard bit!

 

[Pippity]

My RI says that you need to generate energy from behind and then ride forward into a contact. Mark Rashid said that you need to soften and lighten the head/neck/jaw before generating energy from behind otherwise it's like 'driving a car into a wall'. So he (and Buck) spend ages in halt just picking up the rein, expecting the horse to immediately soften/flex at the poll - which sounds a bit like the false outline discussed above. But then Mark does generate the energy from behind once he has the softness.

It sounds like my instructor (BHSII, specialising in 'classical manege riding', ie, the stuff that dressage evolved from) does the same as Mark Rashid. It looked ugly as hell at first, teaching her to soften and flex at the poll, but it really has helped. Most of the time, her neck is just above the horizontal, and if I do have to encourage her to lift it because she's getting heavy on the forehand, the emphasis is on lifting it from the base of the neck. There's no fighting her into a false outline - just encouraging her to relax into an outline that's correct for her level of schooling.

For the record, she's been ridden in a very light contact all the way through.

 

[milliepops]

Until the horse and rider are balanced, the horse is strong enough to carry itself, is secure in the contact and on the aids most will be a bit heavy in the hand, aiming to get them light in the hand is part of the training process not a stand alone aim, many that feel light are not actually working correctly from behind and can often also be btv which is not going to help the dressage scores even if it feels good to the rider.

I think there is middle ground where the horse is light, soft and going correctly but for the average rider it is not easy to achieve without going through the stronger phase where the horse is needing more help to maintain it's balance and work in a frame while it develops the strength to carry itself and the rider correctly, throw into the mix jumping and competing and it makes matters even more tricky.

agree, and I also think this process of needing to gain strength to develop self carriage & a lighter contact keeps circling back round throughout the training process.

You can teach a horse to go with enough balance and strength to work at prelim, but push up to Novice or Elementary and you can find yourself back with a heavier feel because you've changed the way-of-going goalposts and the horse is no longer strong/supple/balanced enough to keep up the same kind of contact. and so on, up the levels. As you say, adding in other disciplines will throw in additional difficulties to what is already not a linear process!

Horses also vary hugely obviously, but I really find the same horse can go through multiple stages as you develop their training and that isn't wrong, it's a natural consequence of increased or changing demands.

I also don't think of a strong contact as keeping the horse's head in or up, it's more about how the whole body fits into your aids. At the moment for the trot work to be a good quality I need kira to take quite a firm confident hold. When she does that then I know that her brain is thinking forward, the hindlegs are engaged and I can really help her balance, suppleness, develop a bit more uphillness etc - if she's too light then I know she's got the hindlegs out behind somewhere, she's sucked back in her brain and then she ends up losing suppleness and quality.
In walk she needs to be off my hand a little more otherwise she gets wooden, same in the piaffe work. If I get the firm "trot" feel when we are doing half steps then it's hopeless, she is inclined to run, drop her shoulders and can't sit.
So it's about knowing your horse and understanding where you are not just in the overall training scale, but in your horse's personal training "circle" for want of a better word. Falsely chasing after a light feel if you need other building blocks in place first can be totally counterproductive.

 

[Ambers Echo]

That was such an well informed and clear reply but also frustrating because I don't know where I am on a training circle!! Or whether a light feel is because she is dragging her hind legs or whether it's because she is getting more balanced. I just can't feel what she is doing.I can tell that she is fairly rhythmic and that she is obedient and she does not either stick her head in the air, drop it too far or tuck it in btv. Beyond that I am clueless about what is going on underneath me.

(MP the frustration comes from my sense of inadequacy - not anying about your reply which I am very grateful for).

I had a lesson with a new instructor last night - she taught my kids on pony club camp and she teaches a lot of my friends so I thought I'd give it a try. She had me riding into a very strong contact too. She did say Amber was too strung out and needed to concertina up a bit and I had to get her hind leg more active as she was very lazy behind. So I felt like I was booting her and hanging on to her all at the same time. Strong leg, strong hand. She went nicely but it felt horrible! She kept saying 'Yes! There! THAT trot!' and I could not really tell when it was good and when it wasn't.

She felt on the aids to me but apparently wasn't - she was rushing or dropping behind the leg. What is clear though is that I don't know anywhere near enough to do it 'my way' and basing what I do on long ago demos does not seem very sensible either. So I think I need to stick with what I am taught by instructors on the ground even if it does not feel great.

Back on the original topic - I am reading Tik's book and loving it - he has just been sacked by Herr Hinneman a few days after being told that he rode 'like a f***ing rabbit'. Tik said he was not sure if that was an expletive or an adjective but either way it wasn't complimentary! Which nearly made me snort my coffee out. But was also oddly reassuring. We are all learning and are all very bad compared to someone else. Just need to keep on keeping on!

 

[milliepops]

No I totally understand and believe me that frustration never goes away because even if you repeat some levels on other horses, the flipping horses are all so different that you still are left sometimes scratching your head thinking about it!

I think sometimes people shy away from something that doesn't feel good and think that means it must be wrong.
Each to their own, but my take on it is that I'm trying to teach a horse to do something that it doesn't understand the point of, doesn't even understand what you're asking when you first begin, its body starts off being too weak to do it well, as a rider I have to coordinate things that I'm not used to, and we both need to develop muscle memory, strength and stamina.

ergo, it's not going to feel good all the time, especially when starting something new. That is normal.and if you are wanting to progress, then you're going to be teaching new things quite often (relevant because staying on a plateau is easy).

If it was always rainbows and butterflies then CDJ wouldn't be dominating british dressage because it would have to be piss easy and we'd all be GP or 5* riders!

The thing that helps me the most is having a trainer I trust 100% with a track record and a teaching manner that fits well with me. We have a long term working relationship so he knows me and he knows my horse. Because then when I'm told to keep going even though it feels hard or uncomfortable, that it will come right.... I believe him and I do it.
We can still discuss things and chew it over, it's a 2 way thing because I'm the one on the horse but a regular steering hand to just help me keep the faith is priceless.
I'm in a bit of a funk at the moment over something so I'm going weekly for a few weeks to get through it. Without someone like that it's very very hard to stay positive and consistent.

 

[splashgirl45]

milliepops has got it exactly right, its a much better description than i could ever give, i am the same as you ae, i know lots of theory, know what looks right and wrong but cannot always feel it. have you tried getting your lessons videoed and maybe have a chat with your instructor while both watching the video. my friend and i videoed each others lessons and i found it really helpful to look at the video immediately after my lesson, i could then understand what the trainer was seeing and therefore understood what she was telling me to do more clearly....also maybe get your trainer to get on and show you what will work on your horse.. i am sure you will get there, lots of luck....

 

[milliepops]

AE the other thing that is worth exploring is riding other horses. I'm not sure how many others you get to ride and of what standard they are? I know we've had discussions on here before about how schoolmasters can be difficult rides, and often can be a bit heavier in the hand than people might expect, etc, but it's all good information to have and you might find it easier to get that feeling of connection/engagement/quickness to your aids etc if you had some context to assess your own horse against?

I have one schoolmaster ride etched into my memory because it was truly enlightening how it felt to have a horse properly on the aids - not in a good way - I was there to work on changes but the first challenge set was to come across the school and counter canter round the short side. The horse knew the GP work so it was more than capable - could I keep the damn thing in CC?! could I heck! I had no idea I was shifting myself around in the saddle which the horse sensibly interpreted as an aid to change leads. That showed me firstly that i wasn't in control of myself, and secondly how dull to subtle aids my own horse was. It's that ability to compare others with your own (favourably and otherwise) that helps you to learn how to feel, IMO.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I'm halfway through Tik's book now and loving it. He has managed to articulate how I feel abut horses completely in a way I have never understood before. He wrote "it is impossible to overestimate the thrill of the gained agility, endurance and sheer athleticism achieved by joining up with a good horse. The horse's legs become my legs. My thoughts become his thoughts". I feel like this. Amber gives me wings. On the ground I am slow, clumsy. On Amber, I fly!! So the physical sport/ competing side of it is very important to me. What Tik describes as ''the childish delight of running and jumping we rationalise through organised sport'.

But he goes on to say "there is also the joy of training [and communication]....the challenge, the puzzle...part of my passion is the thinking and planning side of horsemanship". Again this is like me. I love training horses. I am not skilled enough to produce them under saddle well but I think I am ok at starting them from the ground. And I love doing it. I love trying to understand how they think, how they learn. And it has been humbling to realise just how often unwanted behaviour has been rooted in my lack of clarity and gaps in a horse's understanding. That one go at liberty I did in which Amber went up and down through the gaits and went over raised poles on a 20m circle at the first time of asking amazed me. She did it because she understood what I wanted and that's all she needs.

So I am now doing battle with my conscience about spending the money on taking Amber to the clinic in August. Has anyone actually seen him teach? I loved Buck's books but did not like his clinic and am very glad my place on it was free! In the other hand I'd sell a kidney to go to a ridden Mark Rashid clinic. I don't know what to do!

I am definitely going though, even if only as a spectator. So if anyone else wants to come along, let me know. I guess I could see what he is like this year and save up to take Amber next year if it looks good?

 

[milliepops]

I can't help with the specifics of this one but I know that when I've forked out for residential clinics with trainers I respect I have found i got more out of it than I ever expected, that kind of intensive training can really push you forward quickly. I particularly get a lot out of watching other horse and rider combinations over a few days too because often you can relate to what they are working on too, so you get a double whammy of your own direct lessons and the side effects of theirs

Sounds like it might be worth scrimping and saving for if you can make it this time....

 

[splashgirl45]

if you really like what he has written it would be worth trying to get on the course, a year is a long time to wait..

 

[oldie48]

What a very useful and informative thread! FWIW I have learned so much from watching others having lessons with really good trainers and it seems that whatever the level we all strive for the same thing ie to get the horse properly through and in self carriage. I'm struggling with Rose with this because she's not strong enough in her core to do this for too long so we go in and out of her carrying herself and her wanting me to carry her. It's interesting that we dislike the heavier contact but I think it's not necessarily true that the horse dislikes it. Proper self carriage requires a lot of strength and is hard work. Encouraging Rose to "get in front of the leg and off my hand" (technical terms here) does at times feel ugly but interestingly when i've been able to see it back on vid, I don't look as if I'm doing anything! I've watched lessons where other riders have said exactly the same thing, it feels awful, but from the floor it doesn't look awful. Developing "feel" is a lifetimes work, I think!
AE I'd go to watch if you can't justify the expense of taking your horse, you will still learn loads.

 

[Ambers Echo]

EEEEK I have just booked on! With Amber!! Very excited. Really hope it's as good as it sounds.

 

[milliepops]

you know you'll have to take detailed notes for your mammoth report afterwards