Tildren/navicular

superpony

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My 8 year old TB was diagnosed with navicular June 2010, he has worn eggbars ever since and been on a danilon a day. He has been fine hacking, schooling, small jumps etc, up until about 8/9 weeks ago when he went lame again.

Hes not badly lame in a straight line but isn't *right* and is quite obviously lame on a circle especially on hard ground. He was re xrayed a few weeks ago and the navicular hasn't detoriated but he is still lame despite being reshod by another farrier.

On the barefoot front... I have thought about/researched it and my vets do not recommend it to help him, if the tildren doesn't work/I decide not to do the tildren then I am going to take his shoes off and let him chill in the field and see what happens but I want to follow the vets advice first..

I have spoken to the vets and the last resort before retirement is tildren, at the cost of approx £500. I am happy to pay this (he is no longer covered under insurance for navicular) if there is a decent chance of marked improvement, however I do want to be throwing good money after bad!!!!

Also he is very sensitive so I am worried about the stress of it all as well as the risk of colic afterwards etc! And whether it will make enough of an improvement to ride him again.

So I was wondering if anyone could share their experiences on navicular/tildren please? Good and bad welcomed!!!
 
Hi my boy has navicular.

This was diagnosed a year ago. He had Hy50 injections in both front feet and is shod with quarter clips and wedged pads.

This treatment seems to suit him perfectly he has been sound ever since and returned to full work. I'm very carefull with the ground I ride him on and don't do alot of trotting on the roads.

Has your horse had these injections? Harry is on no bute just synequin, the vet did say this will not improve his navicular but will help slow down any other wear and tear on other joints.

Fingers crossed your horse will make an improvement, i don't have any experiance of tildren this was never mentioned to me.
 
Hi my boy has navicular.

This was diagnosed a year ago. He had Hy50 injections in both front feet and is shod with quarter clips and wedged pads.

This treatment seems to suit him perfectly he has been sound ever since and returned to full work. I'm very carefull with the ground I ride him on and don't do alot of trotting on the roads.

Has your horse had these injections? Harry is on no bute just synequin, the vet did say this will not improve his navicular but will help slow down any other wear and tear on other joints.

Fingers crossed your horse will make an improvement, i don't have any experiance of tildren this was never mentioned to me.

Thank you for your reply.

That sounds very postive, no these injections havn't been offered, could you tell me a bit about them please?
 
Do yourself and your horse a favour and look up Nic Barker at Rockley Farm.

Then decide.

I have done this but unfortunately I cannot afford to send him here.. the cost of livery works out at about £1.5K + plus cost of travelling him down there, which is alot of money on a horse which may still not be rideable afterwards.
 
As far as I know the injections are a steroid and like a false joint fluid this was injected into his coronet band and once shoes and wedges out on he was back in work.

Definately worth speaking to your vet about. Did your horse have the typical lollipops on his navicular when he was x rayed?
 
My first horse had DJD of the coffin joint which, certainly then (10 years ago) had the same prognosis and treatment as navicular. He gradually became lame in eggbars (put on by an examiner farrier) - I thought it was just the shoes but actually his angles were worsening because the trim wasn't right. I too him to the most amazing Natural Balance farrier and he was made sound there and then in the first shoeing. Sadly I lost him to a field accident not long after so I can't say whether it was a long term success.

I would now choose barefoot first (and lots of vets are anti barefoot for way too many horses, they do have their prejudices) and Natural Balance shoeing second.

I have read a comment from a human orthopaedic surgeon that they would never inject their horse with Tildren and that spoke columes to me. I know one person who has had it done and it has worked only moderately well - a few months of total comfort and soundness but a very slow decline ever since which is about 3 years.

As far as I know barefoot is the only thing that can actually show a reversal of the condition rather than a slowing of it, over the long term.
 
Caudal hoof (back half) cannot be properly diagnosed with x rays. On the strength of the quality of the navicular bone my friend was recently given an extremely poor prognosis on her daughter's horse from a top veterinary hospital. "Minor" ddft/collateral ligament damage was seen on MRI but discounted by the hospital because the navicular bone itself was so damaged.

The horse was sound within weeks of a proper barefoot rehab.

Challenge your vet to explain this to you. X-rays tell you almost NOTHING about whether a horse with lameness originating in the back half of the foot can be resolved or not, most of the time they are a complete red herring.

My own rehab with bad Xrays last year had tildren and was still lame. He was sound to compete dressage after 11 weeks out of shoes, and sound to jump after 12 weeks on a 6 mile farm ride.

You do not need to send you horse to Rockley to do a barefoot rehab, though there is little doubt that it is much easier to do so!
 
My horse was given tildren following a diagnosis of navicular. He was given tildren while waiting for MRI - I was advised the treatment would be the same regardless of what the MRI said, so I may as well have it done while he was at the vets. I felt quite rushed to make a decision and followed their advice, he had tildren - got him home he coliced.

A couple of weeks later he had the MRI which revealed DDFT, ligaments you name it he had it, so they then recommended 6 months box rest with a 5% chance of coming sound/PTS - in all the tildren was a waste of time.

That aside, even if it had worked seeing my horses reaction I would never put him through that again. And as I understand tildren only lasts a certain amount of time and generally wears off and has to be repeated -at £500 a time that could get as expensive. In my mind the benefit of barefoot (in my simple terms) is that the horse can grow the foot it needs to resolve the long term issue/cause rather than artificially trying to do it with remedial farriery or managing it with pain relief.

Which brings me to Rockley - my horse has just come home from there. We have a way to go yet but he is back in light work hacking out, thats after vets said PTS in end of May/June.

I appreciate it is expensive and a big decision to send your horse away, there are people on here who have made the transition to barefoot and rehabbed at home themselves - but it depends on your horses environment, knowledge/experience and what support you have. I didn't have enough knowledge or the right environment and felt Rockley was his best option to get him started, now he is home I continue the work.

Anyway, I have rambled enough, I wish you the best of luck with your horse whatever you do as I know how hard those decisions are.
 
Hi,

Just wanted to give my two penneth, my horse was diagnosed with navicular about a year ago and has had egg bar shoes ever since. The farrier has spent the last year improving the shape of one of her wonky front feet and I feel sure this is why she has now been sound for 8 months. She had tildren twice in that time which seemed to give her a boost and helped her stretch out in her stride but I feel sure the farriery has been what really worked. Not sure if she ever really had navicular (!) or was "just" foot imbalance. Both times she had tildren she had no reaction at all and stood like a lamb for the 30/45 minutes whilst it was dripped in. She didn't even flood the stable afterwards which I was given to believe was likley.

Hope this helps, I would probably try barefoot if all else fails but we (thankfully ) aren't there yet in fact she's going better than ever (fingers crossed as I write this ..)

In my case I stuck with my farrier as he seemed to think his work would pay off over the long term but you can't expect hooves to change overnight!

Best of luck with yours.
 
It really disappoints me when people still consider barefoot to be the last resort. It makes me feel like just giving up posting.....

You don't HAVE to spend a fortune on special shoes or drugs. All you need to do is take the shoes off and let the horse repair the damage.

You don't HAVE to send your horse to Rockley. It's perfectly possible to rehab a horse at home. But you DO NEED support and advice from someone who has experience and will work with you, not against you. And you DO NEED to be prepared to take on board changes to his diet and management as a part of the process.

Many vets say, "your horse won't go barefoot." Many vets are wrong on this point. I see this on my own yard:(

This is another horse from my yard, all rehabed at home and been out and competing ever since.....
http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/shoko.html
 
Annabel, the £1.5K is inclusive of livery, why does this sound expensive versus remedial shoeing costs, plus £500 for Tildren. Think about it.

I've followed the eggbar shoeing route (many years ago) and it relieves the pain for a while, then it returns, the next step offered is usually medication and or wedge pads. The same outcome, relief from pain for a while, then it returns. I lost that horse.

Now I'm a barefoot trimmer, and I recover similar horses from the condition that my horse died from. I know what I'm talking about, but the choice is yours.

Think about it, how does a perfectly healthy animal get lame in both front feet simultaneously????? I'll let you think about that.
 
My boy has a bony spur above his navicular bursa for which he has undergone a LOT of treatment this summer! This comment struck a cord with me as it's exactly what I find:

Hes not badly lame in a straight line but isn't *right* and is quite obviously lame on a circle especially on hard ground.

My boy had Tildren 8 weeks ago, by drip, at our yard. He was very wet overnight but this was the only side effect he suffered. Unfortunately, I have not seen any improvement at all but I know that there are people on here who have had good results.

However, I have now decided to take the barefoot route, my chap will be going to Rockley in a couple of weeks hopefully and that decision started to seed following advice on here.

I have already had his shoes removed as he is not doing any work and, as he had Equipak pads, I wanted his soles to harden back up. I have to say I was so worried that he would step of the mats and not be able to walk - I was expecting him to be very sore. But, the reality was he is coping wonderfully and people don't realise he has no shoes til they look down!

There is, obviously, a very long way to go and I am sending him to Rockley in the hope that they will lay good strong groundwork for me to build on. When you consider that you will not have your usual livery costs, remedial shoeing costs (for me this was £180 per set), veterinary treament (already in excess of 1.5k in my case) it really isn't so expensive!
 
As a referral farrier I would be very careful about putting 'egg' bars on.
The problem being that an egg bar does not support the centre of the foot.
If a shoe is needed I would favour a shot tongued hart bar so as to give the frog some absorbing pressure.
it is something I would talk over with your vet.
I think you will find that not many vets or farriers use the egg bar now.
 
Unfortunatley navicular disease is progressive and will continue to worsen over time. From my experience a horse with navicular may be suitable for light work on soft ground. Heart bar shoes are often useful as are wedges as they take pressure off the navicular bone. I would certainly not take his shoes off if I were you because his shoes shock absorb and take pressure off the bone. There are also injections which increase the blood flow to the navicular bone which can help, and also nerve blocks which are considered a last resort. The other alternative is to just keep him shod on the front feet and semi retire him ie; just do hacks around and low level flatwork
 
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Unfortunatley navicular disease is progressive and will continue to worsen over time. From my experience a horse with navicular may be suitable for light work on soft ground. Heart bar shoes are often useful as are wedges as they take pressure off the navicular bone. I would certainly not take his shoes off if I were you because his shoes shock absorb and take pressure off the bone. There are also injections which increase the blood flow to the navicular bone which can help, and also nerve blocks which are considered a last resort. The other alternative is to just keep him shod on the front feet and semi retire him ie; just do hacks around and low level flatwork

I'm afraid you are a little out dated. Would you care to tell all that to these horses.......
http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/shoko.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/09/morning-after-weekend-before.html
http://www.performancebarefoot.co.uk/page25.html

This is the official research that is ongoing
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/p/research-results.html

These are just a few of the horses for which barefoot was a last attempt before PTS who are all out and in work again - and not just light hacking.....

Heart bars and wedges may take pressure off the caudal part of the foot and the tendons and provide temporary relief. But the caudal foot is the problem. Due to the shoes, it becomes weak, atrophied, diseased and results in a toe-first landing. Over time this creates damage to the navicular bone and/or lesions to the soft tissues.

Taking shoes off and providing an appropriate, sympathetic trim and rehab will allow the caudal foot to strengthen and develop and re-establish a heel first landing. Thus the damaged structures can heal (I know there is still controversy as to whether the navicular bone can remodel, but if the horse is sound.....who cares).

So remedial farriery can provide relief for a while, but it doesn't fix anything.

As to shoes absorbing shock - I'm not sure where do you get that from?

The information is all out there if you wish to find out more:)
 
Unfortunatley navicular disease is progressive and will continue to worsen over time. From my experience a horse with navicular may be suitable for light work on soft ground. Heart bar shoes are often useful as are wedges as they take pressure off the navicular bone. I would certainly not take his shoes off if I were you because his shoes shock absorb and take pressure off the bone. There are also injections which increase the blood flow to the navicular bone which can help, and also nerve blocks which are considered a last resort. The other alternative is to just keep him shod on the front feet and semi retire him ie; just do hacks around and low level flatwork

Yes, Oberons right. There are plenty of us on here who were told all of the above by the professionals but we discovered that it is all old hat and that taking the shoes off not only stops the progression but can reverse the damage too!
It never makes sense to me why we ever expected a different result (i.e. soundness) from doing the same thing (i.e. shoeing)!
as the saying goes if you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got!
 
Read the above - is interesting and I also had a look at those links. These horses clearly had navicular problems because of how they were shod - especially the first one. When diseased the navicular bone becomes roughened and this can damage the tendons as they pass over. Therefore these horses in the links appear not to have true navicular disease - just navicular problems, so the change in shoeing/trimming would have of course made a difference (especially the first horse!) I never said that shoes would fix the problem and I know of cases in which different shoes have helped the condition. Barefoot clearly works for some horses

Shoes do take some of the impact out of the concussion of the foot hitting the ground (simple physics - there is something between the foot and the ground.....) but no of course they are not complete shock absorbers.
 
Read the above - is interesting and I also had a look at those links. These horses clearly had navicular problems because of how they were shod - especially the first one. When diseased the navicular bone becomes roughened and this can damage the tendons as they pass over. Therefore these horses in the links appear not to have true navicular disease - just navicular problems, so the change in shoeing/trimming would have of course made a difference (especially the first horse!) I never said that shoes would fix the problem and I know of cases in which different shoes have helped the condition. Barefoot clearly works for some horses

Shoes do take some of the impact out of the concussion of the foot hitting the ground (simple physics - there is something between the foot and the ground.....) but no of course they are not complete shock absorbers.

I am really impressed that you can provide a different diagnosis than the vets who saw these horses:)

I can confidently speak regarding Schoko as I know the horse personally. He was diagnosed by the local horse vet (Mark Lingard, RIP) and also by Leahurst Equine Hospital (as the owner demanded a second opinion) as having navicular due to bilateral CHANGES TO THE NAVICULAR BONE.

I suggested barefoot at the time - but the owners weren't ready to ignore the vet's recommendations

8 months of remedial farriery by the farrier referred by the vet and he was still lame.

He only came sound when he went barefoot. It wasn't luck;)

We believe (in hindsight) that the navicular developed due to intervention to his boxy hooves by well meaning farriers.

He didn't have poor farriers - he always had 'the best'. Both the vets and farriers were happy with the jobs they were doing.

Regarding shoes and concussion - perhaps look into the biomechanics of the bare hoof and how it deals with concussion:)
 
Shoes do take some of the impact out of the concussion of the foot hitting the ground (simple physics - there is something between the foot and the ground.....) but no of course they are not complete shock absorbers.

Are you joking?

If you add half a pound of weight to the end of a long stick you INCREASE the force with which that stick contacts the ground by an order of magnitude, never mind what the weight is made of. Simple physics, only correct this time, where yours is not physics known in this Universe, sorry.

It also defies belief that you think that tempered steel - heated up and rapidly cooled to make it harder - has any shock absorbing capability. If it did, as Bruce says, no-one would make hammers out of it.
 
I am really impressed that you can provide a different diagnosis than the vets who saw these horses:)

I can confidently speak regarding Schoko as I know the horse personally. He was diagnosed by the local horse vet (Mark Lingard, RIP) and also by Leahurst Equine Hospital (as the owner demanded a second opinion) as having navicular due to bilateral CHANGES TO THE NAVICULAR BONE.

I suggested barefoot at the time - but the owners weren't ready to ignore the vet's recommendations

8 months of remedial farriery by the farrier referred by the vet and he was still lame.

He only came sound when he went barefoot. It wasn't luck;)

We believe (in hindsight) that the navicular developed due to intervention to his boxy hooves by well meaning farriers.

He didn't have poor farriers - he always had 'the best'. Both the vets and farriers were happy with the jobs they were doing.

Regarding shoes and concussion - perhaps look into the biomechanics of the bare hoof and how it deals with concussion:)





Hi - your starting to get bitchy and throw everything I say out of proportion. In case you haven't noticed - this is a forum where I am trying to give advice and my thoughts (from practical experience) to a lady whos horse has navicular. Your immiture personal attacks on me aren't appreciated.

I didn't provide a different diagnosis to the vets? You've just said that changes to the navicular was diagnosed - I also thought the navicular bone had undergone changes - disease of the navicular is not the same as navicular changes.

It is VERY clear by the photos of the first horse's hoof that navicular problems of any kind were caused by incorrect shoeing (boxy, upright feet) -therefore a farrier that doesn't know how to trim a hoof correctly. You have said the answer yourself - bilateral changes to the navicular bone - which would have occured if the structures in the foot (due to boxy feet) changed. I posted what I did in the first place because I have seen horses (and heard about ones) that have been diagnosed with navicular, have had the remideal shoeing and have improved, and also ones that have not. Not all horses suit the barefoot option, especially not some of the TB types who's feet cannot handle no shoes. I NEVER said barefoot doesn't work - I simply said in my opinion don't take shoes off (from MY experience). I never said it was luck either that he came sound - dont know where you got that from

Clearly we have different opinions, both which have been proven to work. I was offereing my advice and personal experience and you were offering yours. Lets leave it at that. It is up to the lady who started the thread to decide what she wants to do. As to the shoes and shock absorbing - I said this through personal experience. A horse I know was having problems with splints, sore joints in the leg and windgalls. Putting natural balance shoes on him prevented further splints and the windgalls disappeared. My friends horse had big windgalls from concussion too. Putting these shoes on him helped also. So they clearly do help with concussion/shock absorbtion :) They also help the closure of cracks in the hoof wall by protecting the hooves from direct contact (my horse) - so shoes have many benefits for this type of thing. Once again - MY personal experience. I'm not saying shoes are the only way to go. And it's clearly not rubbish because its worked for these horses. Thats all from me - and in the future people you need to apprectiate that other people are doing all they can on some of these forums to help other people. All I have said is correct, and from reading up what you have said is also correct - just another opinion.
 
Hi - your starting to get bitchy and throw everything I say out of proportion. In case you haven't noticed - this is a forum where I am trying to give advice and my thoughts (from practical experience) to a lady whos horse has navicular. Your immiture personal attacks on me aren't appreciated.

I didn't provide a different diagnosis to the vets? You've just said that changes to the navicular was diagnosed - I also thought the navicular bone had undergone changes - disease of the navicular is not the same as navicular changes.

It is VERY clear by the photos of the first horse's hoof that navicular problems of any kind were caused by incorrect shoeing (boxy, upright feet) -therefore a farrier that doesn't know how to trim a hoof correctly. You have said the answer yourself - bilateral changes to the navicular bone - which would have occured if the structures in the foot (due to boxy feet) changed. I posted what I did in the first place because I have seen horses (and heard about ones) that have been diagnosed with navicular, have had the remideal shoeing and have improved, and also ones that have not. Not all horses suit the barefoot option, especially not some of the TB types who's feet cannot handle no shoes. I NEVER said barefoot doesn't work - I simply said in my opinion don't take shoes off (from MY experience). I never said it was luck either that he came sound - dont know where you got that from

Clearly we have different opinions, both which have been proven to work. I was offereing my advice and personal experience and you were offering yours. Lets leave it at that. It is up to the lady who started the thread to decide what she wants to do. As to the shoes and shock absorbing - I said this through personal experience. A horse I know was having problems with splints, sore joints in the leg and windgalls. Putting natural balance shoes on him prevented further splints and the windgalls disappeared. My friends horse had big windgalls from concussion too. Putting these shoes on him helped also. So they clearly do help with concussion/shock absorbtion :) They also help the closure of cracks in the hoof wall by protecting the hooves from direct contact (my horse) - so shoes have many benefits for this type of thing. Once again - MY personal experience. I'm not saying shoes are the only way to go. And it's clearly not rubbish because its worked for these horses. Thats all from me - and in the future people you need to apprectiate that other people are doing all they can on some of these forums to help other people. All I have said is correct, and from reading up what you have said is also correct - just another opinion.

I'm sorry that you feel I have been bitchy and immature
I've certainly never been called that on this forum before?

Of course you are entitled to your opinion but to suggest my friend's horse's diagnosis was incorrect caused her to pause open mouthed for a moment tonight (while she was riding said horse around the school:) )

The point is - the issues with Schoko's feet are plain to see on the website. The 'before' and 'after' is startling as you say. But it is only AFTER going barefoot that we see what the feet could become like. Prior to this - vet, farrier and owner were happy with the shape of his feet. They'd never looked any different. No one could imagine they would become so lovely given the chance;)

I'm not meaning to rubbish your opinion or patronise you. I am just very passionate about hooves and hate seeing owners spend ££££ on remedial shoes/drugs/ or PTS for the lack of just taking the shoes off and letting the feet blossom (like Schoko's did).


And I'm sorry, but TBs CAN cope without shoes just fine - if done properly.
 
Shoes do take some of the impact out of the concussion of the foot hitting the ground (simple physics - there is something between the foot and the ground.....) but no of course they are not complete shock absorbers.

Excuse me, but without wishing to be accused of being bitchy and immature, I believe your understanding of simple physics to be innaccurate.

Horses' hooves have evolved to absorb shock nicely, even thoroughbreds. ;) that's due to the tissues involved, and the shape and structure of the foot. Lots of really interesting and in-depth videos are on you tube on this subject - if you'd like me to, I will find and post them for your interest :)

Nail on a piece of rigid iron and the nice, pliable, shock absorbers can't expand, contract and squish the way they would do normally. The piece of rigid iron does not take any of the stress out of the equasion, because it does not deform under load. But it does add to the concussion transferred up the horse's leg, because it stops the natural shock absorbers from working as effectively. I think farriers and barefoot advocates alike agree on that.

Hope that helps :)
 
Clearly we have different opinions, both which have been proven to work.


I think it does need to be said that the remedial shoeing/medication route which you have experience of working only returns something like 1 in 5 horses with "navicular spectrum" lameness to work, and even then their owners use expressions like "I am careful on hard ground". In contrast, the barefoot rehabbing which others are talking about has a 4 in 5 or better, record of returning horses to full work including hunting and jumping. Not only that, but those horses were often ones who were already in the 4 out of 5 failed by conventional shoeing and medication. Many of them, like my own, were in an "end of life" situation.

One fails four times as often as it succeeds, the other succeeds four times as often as it fails. I don't think that really counts as "both which have been proven to work", sorry.
 
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. As to the shoes and shock absorbing - I said this through personal experience. A horse I know was having problems with splints, sore joints in the leg and windgalls. Putting natural balance shoes on him prevented further splints and the windgalls disappeared. My friends horse had big windgalls from concussion too. Putting these shoes on him helped also. So they clearly do help with concussion/shock absorbtion .

I'm sorry but you are not describing natural balance shoes providing "shock absorption". There is no more shock absorption in a natural balance shoe than there is in any other steel shoe - none. The effects that you saw with the windgalls were due to a rebalancing of your horses' feet which allowed their OWN shock absorbing mechanisms in the pastern to work better for them. Incidentally, they would work even better with no shoe on at all.
 
I'm sorry but you are not describing natural balance shoes providing "shock absorption". There is no more shock absorption in a natural balance shoe than there is in any other steel shoe - none. The effects that you saw with the windgalls were due to a rebalancing of your horses' feet which allowed their OWN shock absorbing mechanisms in the pastern to work better for them. Incidentally, they would work even better with no shoe on at all.

Out of interest, whilst natural balance shoes are still made out of the same material as ordinary shoes (I believe?), and therefore I agree they have the same shock absorption, I am also under the impression that they are secured with more strategically placed nails, which allow for a bit more expansion and contraction of the heel than traditional shoes. Is that also your understanding of them?
 
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