Tips for field pacingand YO issue please.

[Illusion100]

Long one, sorry! As mentioned in a previous thread my horse started pacing the fence line when turned into a paddock at a recent yard.

He was been on individual t/o since 2 yrs old and I've never had this problem. On recent yard he initially was turned out in a paddock with no nearby horses for company but was right next to the yard/car park/arena and settled brilliantly. Then after 8 days the YO requested him moved to a different paddock a significant distance from the yard. He had 6 other horses around him for company but spend most of his time pacing the fence line closest to yard, often stopping to stare over at the yard in the corner of the field closest to it.

I could tell he was spending most of his time doing it as 90% of poo was being trampled into the track and as you can imagine, a nightmare to clean! As the YO refused to move him into any of the numerous spare paddocks close to the yard and the Vet recommended calmer was ineffective, I moved yards.

He has settled very well at this yard, the best I've known him to (he is even settled enough to be put back into a bit of work). He is in a daily routine and his paddock is next to the arena, closest to stable block. He can see everything that is going on, has numerous paddock neighbours and all was well with the world.

Then, one day middle of last week he started pacing again, luckily YO has a little Shetland that was put in with him and he settled soon after. I decided to try him on his own again thereafter to see if it was a one off. He didn't pace again until today, so Shetland is in again with him now. He has been at new yard for 16 days and is not on any calmer as it didn't make any difference to his pacing previously.

Throughout his life if he got frustrated/anxious/upset in field, he would have a bomb about throwing his legs everywhere and then snort/prance around with his tail over his back for a bit, then carry on grazing. Now he clearly has this learned behaviour of pacing instead.

So, tips to stop pacing full stop please?! It is unlikely I will be able to stay at current yard long term as it is a considerable distance and I am very reluctant to have to end up buying a companion pony. The pacing is methodical and systematic, he is not notably stressed and I'm struggling to determine the root cause.

Also I have poo picked previous paddock at recent yard that he made the track/continuously trampled poo into but YO is unhappy. It is simply humanely impossible (unless you wished to get on your hands and knees and spend hours picking tiny bits of trampled poo from the grass edges of the track) to do this! The contract requests that you leave the stable and paddock clear. I have replied that I have poo-picked to the best of my ability and haven't heard back. I informed them late June that he was wearing a track and that clearing the trampled poo was a difficult task but they offered no alternative management. I am a bit unsure what else can be reasonably expected of me and what to say if they refuse to accept the paddock has been cleared?

Thanks everyone.

 

[Polos Mum]

Sounds like a companion keeps him happy, lots of charities will loan you one and (I think) the blue cross even give you a contribution to wormer, vacs etc. - not cheap but maybe better than having such an unhappy horse ?

 

[LittleGinger]

Will the YO not allow the shetland to stay in with him? This seems like the ideal solution. He sounds happier with company, and this saves you needing to buy/loan that company!

 

[oldie48]

Poor you and poor horse! he needs a companion, doesn't he? I know some horses are happy as long as they can see another horse but many aren't and TBH I don't think you will stop the pacing. I'd look for another yard where they turn out in a small group or try to get a companion for him. I watched my two this evening when I turned them out, Mr B just wanted a good scratch from his friend and watching them groom each other was lovely, horses need to be able to socialise and frankly, humans just don't fill the gap for so many of them!

 

[Illusion100]

Sounds like a companion keeps him happy, lots of charities will loan you one and (I think) the blue cross even give you a contribution to wormer, vacs etc. - not cheap but maybe better than having such an unhappy horse ?

So far at this new yard, he has been very happy and calm (for him!). He hasn't required a chain to be lead/handled and is being very easy for others to handle on a daily basis. His feet are already in much better condition now he spends the majority of his time eating, he no longer has that 'banana' shape from constantly pacing with his head in the air, his musculature is greatly improved in a rounded/balanced form and he is taking all of the yard goings-on in his stride and I put him on the lunge for the first time in months and he was really sensible and enjoyed himself.

If anyone has a companion pony, I would be interested in knowing average costs to keep.

 

[Illusion100]

Will the YO not allow the shetland to stay in with him? This seems like the ideal solution. He sounds happier with company, and this saves you needing to buy/loan that company!

Yes, I can keep her in with him. He will go out with her daily as I wish to determine if this is a possible long-term solution. If he then starts pacing with a companion in the field, I will be at my wits end!!!

 

[Tiddlypom]

If he then starts pacing with a companion in the field, I will be at my wits end!!!

Is herd turnout an option?

 

[Illusion100]

Poor you and poor horse! he needs a companion, doesn't he? I know some horses are happy as long as they can see another horse but many aren't and TBH I don't think you will stop the pacing. I'd look for another yard where they turn out in a small group or try to get a companion for him. I watched my two this evening when I turned them out, Mr B just wanted a good scratch from his friend and watching them groom each other was lovely, horses need to be able to socialise and frankly, humans just don't fill the gap for so many of them!

Will keep little pony in with him to see how it goes. I'm just very confused as this pacing is a very new behaviour. He had been on individual t/o for the past 3 years without a hint of pacing. I initially thought he started pacing at that yard in that paddock because he felt a isolated from the yard as he had just come back from some time at a very busy eventing yard and was upset because he couldn't see what was going on. Then I thought I'd cracked it with current yard set-up, obviously not!

 

[LittleGinger]

If anyone has a companion pony, I would be interested in knowing average costs to keep.

My lad is £75 a month grazing (so that depends on your yard). He has Veteran Vitality (£11-12/bag, lasts around 50 days @ 400g hard feed a day); turmeric (£10 bag, lasts about six months); pepper; copper (can't remember cost but minimal!). Dentist £55 a year; farrier £25 every 8-10 weeks. Insurance £19 a month. Jabs £80 a year. Wormer - about £20 a year.
Hay in winter is about £100-130 a winter.

That's it, I think...

 

[Illusion100]

Is herd turnout an option?

On current yard, no. I have also had bad experiences of this in the past and would hope to avoid it unless there was absolutely no other choice.

 

[FinkleyAlex]

OP I appreciate this is a hard situation - I also have a pony that cannot be left alone, or rather can be left alone but freaks out if he even *considers* that he'll be left out alone properly ie. another horse nearby is brought in. For years I had to have him turned out late and brought in early. Herd turnout was no longer an option as he'd been kicked four times seriously (numerous times non-seriously) and had to have surgery on his knee as a result, all in two years. Eventually I bought another ridden horse and put them out together, original pony is now perfectly happy and stays out 24/7 with his 'brother'. I now have a new problem - original pony is happy to leave his brother and vice versa, but if original pony is taken out and his brother is left behind then he goes absolutely mental. So I now have a happy elderly retired pony, and a young needy pansy ridden horse. The ideal solution for you OP would be to find a yard with permanent (as possible) small groups for turnout - three or four horses max. Enough for them to not get overly attached but not enough to create herd-related issues etc. I know it's hard to find but I'd definitely try that before going down the companion route.

 

[Illusion100]

I see where you are coming from! Have had some awful experiences of group turn out too, injury wise.

When I got this horse at 5 months old I put him with my retired eventer. After time I couldn't do much with the youngster as my old horse developed separation anxiety which then quickly spread to the youngster. The time approached when youngster was 2 for the old horse to be PTS. After getting numerous opinions, I followed the one most recommended. Move them to a new yard, separate on arrival and new surroundings will help keep them distracted from each other, therefore old horse wouldn't be stressed by being separated to be PTS/nor youngster witness mentor PTS. Old horse had a few months of enjoying Summer and was PTS very calmly.

Youngster was on individual t/o for 3 years and wintered out. He was on his own every night during winter and couldn't have cared less.

On recent yard, he settled very well with no company nearby at all next to yard but quickly developed this pacing when put in paddock away from yard surrounded by other horses. I noticed he did not care about leaving the others when I took him to yard to do something with him but got upset when any horse was taken from their own paddock for the same reason. However once they were out of sight, they were out of mind, which also made me think he was more concerned about being 'left out' of what was going on rather than anything else.

I actually have little doubt he will start pacing after the novelty of a companion wears off (ever the optimist eh?!), hence why I was hoping for ideas on how to break the cycle that doesn't involve other horses.

In reply to FinkleyAlex!

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

As a YO myself I can see that having a horse like this on any yard would pose serious difficulties as regards management.

The YO in OP's situation was presumably doing her best to manage a very complex problem and unfortunately some clients have no idea of the practical problems involved in trying to solve the difficulties that having a horse with this obviousl level of "issues" would place on any yard. YO has obviously done her best - and there are other clients on the yard in question and not just the OP with her difficult horse! A YO's nightmare I would say.....

This horse is obviously very sensitive and highly strung, and it might be that OP will have to keep moving her horse until she finds the right combination of field-companions, turnout, and livery/supervision - perhaps this horse would be better on a more structured yard rather than on a DIY set-up as it is obvious that there are some very complex issues involved in managing this particular horse.

The other thing that occurs to me is that perhaps the whole exercise-to-food-to-turnout ratio needs to be addressed. Maybe this horse would benefit from being on working livery as it just might benefit from a little more work???

But I do think the YO in question has really done all she can; and if it was OP's stated responsibility in the livery contract to make sure the area was ship-shape before relinquishing her livery, then I do not think the YO can be blamed for that!! This horse has obviously been a very difficult animal to manage effectively, and as a YO myself, albeit on a very small scale, I think I'd certainly struggle, to the extent that I'd probably suggest to OP that her horse might well settle better on another yard...............

Not an easy horse to manage, obviously. But hopefully OP WILL find a situation, somewhere, which suits her and her horse.

 

[Illusion100]

As a YO myself I can see that having a horse like this on any yard would pose serious difficulties as regards management.

The YO in OP's situation was presumably doing her best to manage a very complex problem and unfortunately some clients have no idea of the practical problems involved in trying to solve the difficulties that having a horse with this obviousl level of "issues" would place on any yard. YO has obviously done her best - and there are other clients on the yard in question and not just the OP with her difficult horse! A YO's nightmare I would say.....

This horse is obviously very sensitive and highly strung, and it might be that OP will have to keep moving her horse until she finds the right combination of field-companions, turnout, and livery/supervision - perhaps this horse would be better on a more structured yard rather than on a DIY set-up as it is obvious that there are some very complex issues involved in managing this particular horse.

The other thing that occurs to me is that perhaps the whole exercise-to-food-to-turnout ratio needs to be addressed. Maybe this horse would benefit from being on working livery as it just might benefit from a little more work???

But I do think the YO in question has really done all she can; and if it was OP's stated responsibility in the livery contract to make sure the area was ship-shape before relinquishing her livery, then I do not think the YO can be blamed for that!! This horse has obviously been a very difficult animal to manage effectively, and as a YO myself, albeit on a very small scale, I think I'd certainly struggle, to the extent that I'd probably suggest to OP that her horse might well settle better on another yard...............

Not an easy horse to manage, obviously. But hopefully OP WILL find a situation, somewhere, which suits her and her horse.

As the OP, I have to disagree with you.

That YO did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to assist with the pacing issue! He has never done this in his 5 years of life and although they were aware he settled very calmly in initial paddock they refused to move him back into the empty paddock that he was originally in. How is that 'managing' anything? As a YO, how can you possibly justify leaving a horse to pace and start splitting his feet and ignore concerns from the owner? Would you do it to your own? They were quite happy to take my livery money though! I have poo-picked the field (I'd poo picked daily in all the time he was there), what am I supposed to do, hoover the paddock and re turf the track?! Most of that yards clients are coincidently on waiting lists at other yards for various and similar reasons, it's not just me with the issue.

Horse has been on current yard for 16 days, hardly any time at all and has paced on 2 separate occasions for about half an hour, vast improvement I'd say! This current YO actually gives a **** about her clients and their horses and we've found the Shetland as a companion has worked, they are happy to turn them out together and we will see how it goes. This yard is part or full livery only and so he is on a structured daily routine. He is on no hard feed and now after a couple of remedial farriery sessions are his feet in good enough shape to have started back into light work at the weekend.

I discussed at length my horses background with current YO as I did with the previous YO, the difference is this YO cares. We actually went together to move my horse to her yard as I wanted her to see first hand the pacing behaviour, track he'd made and seen being handled on the understanding that if they felt he would be unsuitable for their yard on part livery they could turn us down before moving him. I want what is right for everyone involved and having my horses welfare disregarded isn't something I should have had to pay for.

So far horse really is doing great on new yard. It's small but active and he hasn't put a hoof out of line with anyone and they are happy for him to stay as long as I wish. I'm just concerned about this new learned behaviour and wish to prevent it happening again at all costs and so looking for experiences and advice.

 

[TandD]

(Not been on here for ages...all very different :S)

My horse learnt that fence walking would get him what he wanted - being brought in - as my YO doesn't like horses doing anything other than grazing in a field. He ended up fence walking for 7.5 hours once and me wanting to kill him for the mess he made of the field. YO then got nasty over an issue she caused.
I reduced the issue by changing up his turnout for a bit, keeping him in for longer in the morning and therefore he wanted to stay out. Just gradually started putting him out earlier once settled and he's been happy since.
YO also stopped bringing him in when he went faster than an ambling walk.

 

[be positive]

I think because it is learned stereotypical behaviour that it will be far harder to completely break than it was to learn, he seems more settled now, the YO is interested in helping unlike the last YO who seemed far more concerned about her field than her clients or their animals, being a YO can be a thankless task at times but I always have the care of the horse as my primary concern and will look at things from every angle when required if the horse is unwell or unhappy for some reason, it is not all about the bottom line it is about the welfare and well being of the horse.

I would hope that once he is in work he will use some of his energy in that, his mind is obviously ready to be doing more, this shows in that he is watching the yard activities rather than being interested in eating or being with the others, can he start doing something every day now? even just 10 mins in hand or on long reins doing pole work or something that makes him think may be enough to help get him totally relaxed when he goes out.
I think although it is somewhat pandering to him I would probably either bring him in before I thought he may start walking, you usually get a sense of what may trigger it and could prevent it by bringing him in or bring him in as soon as he gets started, yes it is rewarding him in some peoples eyes but it may help to break the habit if he never really gets started.
My horse has at times got into a real state charging about and gets very wound up, if I can get him in before he really gets going then it seems to relax him and I can turn him out after a while without him setting off again, yours may like to come in for an hour each lunch time or even when the yard is busy if he prefers, extra work for the staff but it may reduce his boredom if he has some time being more involved to break up each day.

 

[YorksG]

The pacing is a typical stereotypey, not a learned begaviour IMO. The fact that this has stopped in response to having a companion, confirms this for me. You may have thought he was ok on his own, but obviously this is not the case. He does indeed sound like a difficult animal to place and would ideally be best kept on the owners own land, with at least one companion, where his management would not affect others. YO, whether they care, or not, have to consider the management of their land for all liveries. I do not know what the original paddock was kept for, but if it was the isolation paddock, I can understand why they did not want it occupying for any length of time. I can also see that if it was close to the yard, they would want it for winter turnout.

 

[Illusion100]

(Not been on here for ages...all very different :S)

My horse learnt that fence walking would get him what he wanted - being brought in - as my YO doesn't like horses doing anything other than grazing in a field. He ended up fence walking for 7.5 hours once and me wanting to kill him for the mess he made of the field. YO then got nasty over an issue she caused.
I reduced the issue by changing up his turnout for a bit, keeping him in for longer in the morning and therefore he wanted to stay out. Just gradually started putting him out earlier once settled and he's been happy since.
YO also stopped bringing him in when he went faster than an ambling walk.

I know how you felt. Trying to clear that track everyday was just a nightmare! Like trying to get chewing gum out of hair! Really glad your boy has settled now.

 

[Illusion100]

The pacing is a typical stereotypey, not a learned begaviour IMO. The fact that this has stopped in response to having a companion, confirms this for me. You may have thought he was ok on his own, but obviously this is not the case. He does indeed sound like a difficult animal to place and would ideally be best kept on the owners own land, with at least one companion, where his management would not affect others. YO, whether they care, or not, have to consider the management of their land for all liveries. I do not know what the original paddock was kept for, but if it was the isolation paddock, I can understand why they did not want it occupying for any length of time. I can also see that if it was close to the yard, they would want it for winter turnout.

He stopped pacing immediately at new yard for 10 days (so a significant change in behaviour), then started mid afternoon so Shetland went in for that afternoon. Then he was fine again until today, so Shetland went in again.

Previous yard (where pacing started) has approx. 20 empty paddocks, 5 of which surround yard. If they had even said to me 'they are winter paddocks and we cannot have them used during summer, under the circumstances we can move your horse to the original paddock with a months notice to find somewhere else', I would have been fine with that.

 

[Ebenezer_Scrooge]

.....wrong thread stupid phone

 

[Illusion100]

I think because it is learned stereotypical behaviour that it will be far harder to completely break than it was to learn, he seems more settled now, the YO is interested in helping unlike the last YO who seemed far more concerned about her field than her clients or their animals, being a YO can be a thankless task at times but I always have the care of the horse as my primary concern and will look at things from every angle when required if the horse is unwell or unhappy for some reason, it is not all about the bottom line it is about the welfare and well being of the horse.

I would hope that once he is in work he will use some of his energy in that, his mind is obviously ready to be doing more, this shows in that he is watching the yard activities rather than being interested in eating or being with the others, can he start doing something every day now? even just 10 mins in hand or on long reins doing pole work or something that makes him think may be enough to help get him totally relaxed when he goes out.
I think although it is somewhat pandering to him I would probably either bring him in before I thought he may start walking, you usually get a sense of what may trigger it and could prevent it by bringing him in or bring him in as soon as he gets started, yes it is rewarding him in some peoples eyes but it may help to break the habit if he never really gets started.
My horse has at times got into a real state charging about and gets very wound up, if I can get him in before he really gets going then it seems to relax him and I can turn him out after a while without him setting off again, yours may like to come in for an hour each lunch time or even when the yard is busy if he prefers, extra work for the staff but it may reduce his boredom if he has some time being more involved to break up each day.

Yard is 50 mins away and so he's on a livery package where he is turned out, mucked out, poo picked and brought in mon-fri so I only go a few times a week. I will be working him on the days I go and YO working him other days is not an option available.

He's a little rusty (or being a 'I know what I'm doing, leave it to me') so I need just to get him listening before extending his workload over the next few weeks. I hope for his saddle to arrive in the next 6 weeks so I can finally get on him! He definitely wants to do more/be involved, for instance he'd rather have stood being showered in the wash box than go back to bed, so will be upping his learning curve/general handling and workload. It may sound strange but with this type if horse I prefer for them to WANT to be handled/worked etc than expecting compliance, so to speak, it just seems to make things much easier! Now he is at that stage (and his feet are recovered enough) we can get on with it. I hope this will be enough to tire his mind a bit, otherwise I will look into your suggestions, thank you.

I was very disappointed that my horses individual welfare was disregarded at last yard and yes, they care far more about aesthetic appearance of paddocks. I was actually taken aback that when I said my horse was pacing a track, trampling in poo and I was struggling to clear the mess, they weren't interested. Now they have a problem with it. I just don't get it!

 

[smellsofhorse]

The root cause is stress due to having no company.
It may look methodical but it is his way of releasing stress.

He needs proper company. One other may help or may cause a separation issues. Really he needs to be in herd.
He will be so much happier.
Could you find a nice turnout field?
Especually if you arnt riding much.

Calmers can take weeks to show a difference. But they won't get rid of the real issue.

 

[Goldenstar]

IMO the horse needs company in the field, I would rather risk injury and allow my horses the company of friends than impose an unnatural and boring way of life .
He also needs more work and a busy life it's not ideal but if the yard has a walker get him on it daily .
Individual turnout in small paddocks while doing little work is simply asking for issues like this .
A horse like this needs the roultine and mental exercise of daily work ,Illusion are sure this is the horse for you ?
This does sounds like a horse I would be working seven days a week I just can't see how ,given all you have posted about him the routine you suggest is going to be enough .

 

[Elsbells]

Looking at it from outside the box and the fact that you said he was happy on a busy yard, grazed close to the stables, I'd say he's like my mare and doesn't like to be as he sees it.....excluded.
I cannot stick my mare in a last paddock, no matter how many horses are out there for company because she doesn't give a hoot about other horses, she just wants to be in the thick of it. She feels secure with all the comings and goings, the dog walkers saying hello and of course knowing where everyone is and her importance! God forbid, some horse or human attempt to do something without her permission!
She does however as others have already said, benefit enormously from lots of work and hacking in particular. They are horses with active brains I'm afraid and its a bit like keeping a working collie in a crate all day, you going to get trouble!

 

[Hetsmum]

IMO the horse needs company in the field, I would rather risk injury and allow my horses the company of friends than impose an unnatural and boring way of life .
He also needs more work and a busy life it's not ideal but if the yard has a walker get him on it daily .
Individual turnout in small paddocks while doing little work is simply asking for issues like this .
A horse like this needs the roultine and mental exercise of daily work ,Illusion are sure this is the horse for you ?
This does sounds like a horse I would be working seven days a week I just can't see how ,given all you have posted about him the routine you suggest is going to be enough .

^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^ Young male horses are hardwired to 'play' as part of their natural behaviour. Some cope without this need fulfilled, some do not. I have had both types of youngster. My youngest is now 9 and still has the need to 'play' regularly having been deprived of it as a 2 year old (not in my care). Scary as the chunks of hair missing etc are he is a (relatively) sane horse now...........

 

[ihatework]

To me it sounds like the type of horse that would flourish in a group turnout situation.

He sounds like quite an unhappy horse.

 

[Achinghips]

Some just can't respond to the unpredictability of others comings and goings and need strict routine and predictability in time tabling, combined with decent horse proof, purposely designed buildings. When I moved my insane tb to full livery from an unprofessional DIY set up she turned into a dream horse. Why? Predictability. If one was in, they were all in, if one out, all out, if one fed, all fed. If one had, hay, all had hay. Regime and exercise worked like clockwork and she thrived.

The only way to stop pacing full stop is to change the environment.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

So far at this new yard, he has been very happy and calm (for him!). He hasn't required a chain to be lead/handled and is being very easy for others to handle on a daily basis. His feet are already in much better condition now he spends the majority of his time eating, he no longer has that 'banana' shape from constantly pacing with his head in the air, his musculature is greatly improved in a rounded/balanced form and he is taking all of the yard goings-on in his stride and I put him on the lunge for the first time in months and he was really sensible and enjoyed himself.

If anyone has a companion pony, I would be interested in knowing average costs to keep.

Ask the charities for an easy to keep companion, the basic cost is going to depend on the yard charge, after that a £1.00 a day is a normal budget, you are in the lap of the gods if you buy an unknown pony from an unknown person, but you could take a loan from someone, specify no sweet itch or anything that requires you to pay for medicaments.
Agree that this horse needs a field companion, probably better in a herd situation tbh. An unhappy horse is a sad thing esp when it is obvious how to sort it.

 

[ester]

So, tips to stop pacing full stop please?! It is unlikely I will be able to stay at current yard long term as it is a considerable distance and I am very reluctant to have to end up buying a companion pony. The pacing is methodical and systematic, he is not notably stressed and I'm struggling to determine the root cause.

Methodical and systematic doesn't mean not stressed, in fact it is a sure sign of it like all stereotypies and happens across many animals (mammals at least)- repetitive movements are self soothing. Although he has been ok on his own before he clearly isn't any more, whether that is an accumulation of an issue of being turned out on his own since 2 (very young to have to cope with life as a prey animal on your own) or due to a different triggering factor that is the situation now and you will have to adjust his management, and your livery options accordingly and if you can't sell him. Yes there is the risk of injury- but there is just as much risk in him injuring himself pacing.

 

[luckyoldme]

The root cause is stress due to having no company.
It may look methodical but it is his way of releasing stress.

He needs proper company. One other may help or may cause a separation issues. Really he needs to be in herd.
He will be so much happier.
Could you find a nice turnout field?
Especually if you arnt riding much.

Calmers can take weeks to show a difference. But they won't get rid of the real issue.

I totally agree with this poster, and have commented before on this same subject with the same op. I really do feel like kidnapping this horse and hoying him out 24/7 with my horse and his friends. Im speaking only as someone with a horse who has fence walked, cribbed and fretted on his own due to his own aggressive behaviour with other horses. Three years later the same horse is out 24/7 , settled , a doddle to handle and the most chilled out character you could imagine.
i completely understand the ops reluctance to do this, but horses need to be horses. The way i see it Is that i am with my horse one hour a day, If he is happy and content for the other 23 hours then he is much more likely to be setlled and calm for the one hour i spend with him.