Tit bits for horses??

[Starbucks]

I'm terrible for giving my horses and dogs treats!!!

I can't ride my horse without giving him a biccy afterwards!!

Anyone else the same???

Badger likes Penguin's the best!

 

[DreamerII]

LOL.....Dreamer gets an apple after every ride that he's worked had on. Otherwise he'll get a small treat designed for horses (like if we just hack out or something).

He gets treats at the gate of the field too....this is the only way I've managed to stop him from charging off and dragging my 1/2 way across the field (which he'd do given half the chance!!)

 

[Stoxx]

I only give my horse something after he's been good when ridden (he's hilarious he knows when he's been good and demands something and when he's been naughty he doesn't look for anything at all!). Also on the otherside of the gate when he's brought in, just so that he knows to stand and wait until I'm ready.
Normally a polo or carrot.
My pony however can be given anything at any time as there's no chance of her developing any bad manners as she's far too angelic!!

 

[Hedgewitch13]

My mare is such a food snob she will only accept apples or carrots as a treat - she doesn't do titbits - and even then she often rejects what I give her!

Personally I'm not really into giving horses treats, it can make them evil teeth gnashers!

 

[spitchwick]

I don't believe in giving dogs or horses lots of titbits. It might come from breeding, and never giving my youngsters anything in the field, so they don't become ''biters''. They do get plenty of veg and fruit in feeds, and the odd apple or carrot, for working well, in hand or ridden, but never on a regular basis.

 

[hallarider]

I half agree with the not giving tit bits, it does make mine a bit nippy - given they are only 2 and 4 but they have to have one at the gate when i turn them out as it gives me time to take headcollars off before i get dragged up the field (bearing in mind they are 18hh and 17.2hh!).

 

[jenmac_85]

I've gone back to givein mine treats in his manger as he can get nippy and tries to 'mug' you every time you walk past. Have cut down as he was getting a treat for absolutely everything. Seems to work, but I wouldn't cut down completely.

 

[Eceni]

I'm a clicker-trainer, which is all about giving +ve reinforcement, generally of the food kind.... I use tiny bits of chopped up carrot, and have just discovered Badminton Horse Feeds complete grass nuggets which are perfect, and £7 ish for a 20Kg bag which beats daft prices for treats... she hates polos, which is fine by me

the 'mugging doesn't work' is the first thing we train - she's never mugged me yet....

E

 

[JM07]

Never.

they become a pest asking for treats.

 

[Sooty]

Because Toffee went through a phase of mugging me every time she saw me, when we got Beano as a foal I said he was never to be given treats by hand. He is now hearly three and has always had any treats off the floor.

 

[zoesophie]

Oscar gets the badminton treats too. At the mo they are a way to keep his attention walking to the field but this will soon stop once hes used to going out again and after hes worked well in the school. If hes naughty he doesnt get anything. He doesnt mug for food - but he does give you the "Im starved, please feed me" look

 

[Eceni]

[ QUOTE ]
Never.

they become a pest asking for treats.

[/ QUOTE ]

a very basic application of even more basic behavioural science will stop them becoming a pest - and the fact that they want the treats should tell us that they're a useful teaching tool...

E

 

[JM07]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Never.

they become a pest asking for treats.

[/ QUOTE ]

a very basic application of even more basic behavioural science will stop them becoming a pest - and the fact that they want the treats should tell us that they're a useful teaching tool...

E

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry..its not for me.

 

[Daisy11]

a reward for when you ride for good behaviour but i wouldnt give them all the time as it can lead to nipping etc

 

[asbo]

mine get them when caught, after work & before i go at night, they are vit & min treats, you can feed up to 15 a day & it helps their vit/min intake

mine are very good & do not mug

 

[Faithkat]

I'm with you, JM07. I bought a 10 month old foal once quite cheaply simply because his (well-meaning) breeder had made him very nippy and nasty simply by always giving him titbits. She had originally advertised him for £1000 and when a prospective buyer came to view him, he came looking for titbits. When they didn't have any he went to bite them and when they waved him away, they then got both barrels in the face . . . they didn't buy him. I bought him for £300 as she couldn't sell him and took me about 6 months to cure him. I NEVER give titbits, ever

 

[spaniel]

No treat here either.

Horses are NOT motivated by food, its all around them all the time, all they have to do to eat is to put their heads down.

All treats do is lead to nips and door bangings.

 

[ironhorse]

Only after working very hard or achieving something she's found difficult.
Never mints - think these make them nip worse than anything, and I never keep treats in my pocket. Trainer is very anti and with good reason, quarter horses are sooo cheeky. She's actually quite good, but it wouldn't take much...
What really annoys me is the riding school clients walking around with bags of carrots giving them to all the horses, not just the school horse they've ridden. I was starting to lose my rag with people - now there's a big sign on her door saying no carrots, apples or mints please!

 

[chestnut cob]

I'm such a miserable owner, my horses never get treats!!! My instructor gives my horse (and all the horses she teaches) a polo at the end of a lesson but that's as much as my horse gets!

 

[Daisy11]

my friend brought a irish cob that was fine to begin with then she started feed titbits and know he is narsty to any thing in his way of titbits and food

 

[Cop-Pop]

I only treat before a ride and after they've been worked and sometimes if I'm feeling generous but otherwise a pack a treats gen lasts for abt four months....

*now feels like a horrid Mummy.....*

 

[Eceni]

[ QUOTE ]
No treat here either.

Horses are NOT motivated by food, its all around them all the time, all they have to do to eat is to put their heads down.

All treats do is lead to nips and door bangings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, this is simply not true.

1. reinforcements come in a number of forms, but food is immensely reinforcing. When horses bang on their stable, it's for a reason. THe reason is that they want the food *now* (!)

2. Basic behavioural science says that to be effective, a reward has to either be within < 1 sec of the behaviour it's rewarding, or it's not effective. OR it has to be paired with a marker signal - so if we take dolphins as a less emotive example than horses, if you want the dolphin to swim very fast in a straight line, you blow the whistle (marker signal) when it swims a bit faster, and then throw it a fish. This means you don't have to be stunningly accurate with fish-throwing for the dolphin to work out what the reward was for (assuming you've previously set up that whistle = right response = fish-is-coming)

3 horses don't eat fish. They do eat: carrots, apples, pony nuts, Badminton fibre nuggests etc. etc. etc. If you pair the marker (I use a click but you don't have to - but there's a lot of physiological studies done to show that the short-sharpness of the click works at the level of the hind brain) with the reward, the horse comes to know that the click marks a particular behaviour.

4. Applied correctly, this is true behavioural science, instead of the pseudo-science that is a lot of other horse-training. If it's not your thing, that's fine, but don't make statements that don't stack up.

E

 

[Tia]

No I don't give my horses or dogs edible treats for being good; they are however, given a tonne of physical treats every single time they do something which I deem as good

.

Horses and dogs can become obsessed with treats and this would not make for a good working relationship between me and my animals.

 

[JM07]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No treat here either.

Horses are NOT motivated by food, its all around them all the time, all they have to do to eat is to put their heads down.

All treats do is lead to nips and door bangings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, this is simply not true.

1. reinforcements come in a number of forms, but food is immensely reinforcing. When horses bang on their stable, it's for a reason. THe reason is that they want the food *now* (!)

2. Basic behavioural science says that to be effective, a reward has to either be within < 1 sec of the behaviour it's rewarding, or it's not effective. OR it has to be paired with a marker signal - so if we take dolphins as a less emotive example than horses, if you want the dolphin to swim very fast in a straight line, you blow the whistle (marker signal) when it swims a bit faster, and then throw it a fish. This means you don't have to be stunningly accurate with fish-throwing for the dolphin to work out what the reward was for (assuming you've previously set up that whistle = right response = fish-is-coming)

3 horses don't eat fish. They do eat: carrots, apples, pony nuts, Badminton fibre nuggests etc. etc. etc. If you pair the marker (I use a click but you don't have to - but there's a lot of physiological studies done to show that the short-sharpness of the click works at the level of the hind brain) with the reward, the horse comes to know that the click marks a particular behaviour.

4. Applied correctly, this is true behavioural science, instead of the pseudo-science that is a lot of other horse-training. If it's not your thing, that's fine, but don't make statements that don't stack up.

E

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you a fan of Parelli???


1. I own 14 Equines...NOT ONE wants it's food NOW!!

2. My horses dont do tricks

3. they dont need "clicks" to encourage "behaviour"

4. Applied correctly, good horsemanship does stack up......

 

[Starbucks]

Maybe so, but I'm going to continue anyway!

He doesn't even get them for being good - just if I think he wants one!

Badger is very well mannered in the stable etc., I think he has been bashed a bit as a youngster because he's quite cautious of new people and men. So he isn't a pest about it. Caffrey is though, you can't stand outside his stable door without him nudging and trying to get into your pockets but I think it's kinda cute.

I think I'm a bit soft... in the head!

 

[Eceni]

[ QUOTE ]

Are you a fan of Parelli???


1. I own 14 Equines...NOT ONE wants it's food NOW!!

2. My horses dont do tricks

3. they dont need "clicks" to encourage "behaviour"

4. Applied correctly, good horsemanship does stack up......

[/ QUOTE ]


I am really, really not a fan of Parelli

as far as I can tell, that particular system has some interesting points to be made for the average amateur, but they do seem to instill a very badly incorrect bend a lot of the time, which can't be good.

I'm a clicker trainer, which is the application of behavioural science - it takes a lot of work and a lot of thought and isn't for everyone, but, for the record:

- it's not about 'tricks' - although I do spend hours working on lateral work, which you might choose to define as a trick

- my horses don't want their food *now* either - they understand the boundaries

c - licker training is not the obverse of good horsemanship - in fact without good horsemanship, everything else falls apart. But it is a means of forming a clear, distinct, direct communication with the horse that can achieve immense subtlety with long-term use. It's primarily about finding a place of emotional stability for both horse and rider, but that only comes when you understand the basics - and yes, I do realise that other forms of training are heading there too, I just like to do it with +ve rather than -ve reinforcement

my dog is clicker-trained too - and she doesn't do tricks either unless you count hunting rabbits in a field of sheep as a trick...

E

 

[Tia]

[ QUOTE ]
I just like to do it with +ve rather than -ve reinforcement


[/ QUOTE ]
Me too, which is why I don't use edible treats as bribery.

 

[kirstyhen]

My pony gets treats when hes turned out and after hes been ridden, he never nips and he doesnt kick his door, although he can bit of a thug with his head and nudging, but he does that regardless of treats, he wants fuss and attention.
I dont think he was given treats as a youngster (he was fed a diet of hay and bread, so i dont imagine them being particularly forthcoming with the treats!) so he doesnt expect them all the time.
Starbucks - I think its cute too!!! Our horses are tied by the tack room and after Henrys been ridden he sticks his head in as far as possible with his best "arent i a good boy and so cute" face on!!
Eceni - We have six working dogs at home, 5 were trained the "normal" way but the youngest didnt respond as well. So my mum started going to clicker training with him and the difference is amazing!
Although i worked at a dressage yard that used parelli, she disagreed with some of the ridden principles, but used a combination of classical training and parelli in her groundwork. Her horse where all beautifully mannered to handle, all big, fit strong warmbloods.
I think the training method should fit the animal, rather than one way being the right way for everything.

 

[kirstyhen]

Positive reinforcement is giving a reward when the horse performs the correct behaviour, and negative reinforcement is the removal of something unpleasant when the horse does the correct behaviour.
Both these forms of training are the basis of the pavlovian method, the basis of most horse training. There is no evidence to show horses learn better from either form of reinforcement.
For example, removing the pressure of a leg aid after the horse moves away from it is negative reinforcement and giving the horse a treat after it has performed a move correctly is positive.
Punishment would be smacking the horse for not doing the correct movement.

 

[Eceni]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just like to do it with +ve rather than -ve reinforcement


[/ QUOTE ]
Me too, which is why I don't use edible treats as bribery.

[/ QUOTE ]

we should probably stop this soon but -

bribery is 'here is a treat, do what i want and you'll get it' (where treat = money, food, alcohol, coffee, chocolate... whatever)

+ve reinforcement is 'what you just did in that moment *now* (the particularly good bend, the soft lateral flexion, the long, low trot on the lunge) was what we were looking for and I've just marked it. Here's the reinforcement.

The point of the click is that it marks the behaviour for both of us - and in people, the response is sub-cortical which takes it past the realm of conscious (and therefore slow) responses to sub-conscious (and therefore fast, deep, permanent) reflexes.

It's being used in children now in gymnastics, vaulting, basketball.... all kinds of things - and it allows both of us to work towards something that is within the 'excellent' range of what we're doing - the vertical handstand, the good lateral flexion.... whatever. A friend watched a not-very-adept middle aged man being taught to juggle by TAG-teach (which is human clicker training). You may want to think that juggling is a trick and I wasn't planning to teach it to my horse, but it makes a change in the way we think, the way we teach, the way we understand learning.

whatever you take away from this, come to know the difference between bribery and +ve reinforcement

E