To get a professional to jump Dizz - is the LOU worth it...

MrsMozart

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Spoke to a professional showjumper today... he sounded very nice :). Was okay with what I told him about the Dizz and our situation :).

However....

He would want Dizz at his place 'for a few weeks', he would not compete her from our yard.

Whilst I can understand his thinking, I'm not sure I can cope with Dizz being away for that long :(. I thought it would be a week whilst he got to know her, but not much longer than that; V could have kept her ticking over, even if that was just exercise, we could have taken Dizz to his for jump work.

Anyhoo, it has made me think about what I want to do with Dizz. Whilst the loss of use is worth a few thousand pounds or so, sending Dizz to this chap will cost in the region of £1500, including show fees, transport, etc. so that's going to knock down the final figure.

The thing that's really bugging me though, is that if Dizz stays there, she'll be forming a bond with with the chap. And what if something goes wrong? This guy comes highly recommended, so I'm not expecting any issues per se.

The question one has to ask oneself, is: is the LOU worth it? If I hadn't whalloped my head last year, I'd have been competing on Dizz this year, okay it would have been the low level stuff, but still, something.

I'm going to call the insurance company tomorrow to find out if it has to be a BS track of say 1.20 that Dizz has to be able to jump, or can it be simply a track we put up in keeping with BS standards. I think we would have to do it a few times.

Dizz used to jump over three feet quite happily before I got her, though had only jumped a few times. D1 can jump heights okay and rides the Dizz well, but she has limited track experience.

Ho hum. Don't know what to do.
 

dieseldog

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Has Dizzy been written off, and now you want to get someone else to jump her so that you can claim LOU?

I think I must be a bit confused:confused:
 

tiggs

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Usually insurance companies pay out on loss of use based on vet's reports maybe using their own vet to verify it, but I think you said in a previous post that the vets aren't sure whether she will be able to jump again or not. My concern would be that if you send it to the pro the only way that you will get a loss of use payment is if she has physical effects from jumping which might mean you can no longer ride her. If she is jumping well with your daughter and at a height that you are likely to want to jump, I would keep doing that for the next few months and see how she seems physically with the work.
 

MrsMozart

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Sorry, brain seems to have seized up, I should have explained better!

Bought Dizz to BS.

She has bony irregularities on her pelvis, which was discovered after I got her.

This might or might not affect her future as a showjumper.

I had ableed on the bain at the end of last year, now I have a broken back.

Dizz is fit and well now. We started her jump training April/May of this year.

If she can't BS, then I want to claim LOU.

I have until the end of December this year to claim LOU or not.
 

MrsMozart

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Usually insurance companies pay out on loss of use based on vet's reports maybe using their own vet to verify it, but I think you said in a previous post that the vets aren't sure whether she will be able to jump again or not. My concern would be that if you send it to the pro the only way that you will get a loss of use payment is if she has physical effects from jumping which might mean you can no longer ride her. If she is jumping well with your daughter and at a height that you are likely to want to jump, I would keep doing that for the next few months and see how she seems physically with the work.

Correct. Sue Dyson at the AHT cannot say whether it will be a problem or not, nor can she say it's something that will definately 'write Dizz off' if she is jumped and a problem arises from the jumping.

The point you make about Dizz ending up damaged because of my wish to BS is one that is weighing heavily on me at the moment. Other horses with this issue have gone on to have full competition lives with no problems.
 

quirky

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There are strict criteria to meet before the insurance company will pay out on LOU ... I know from bitter experience :(.

Are you sure the independent vet will sign her off?
 

dieseldog

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The only thing I can think off, is that she might BS now, but what will happen in the summer when she has to jump on grass? You are only going to be able to try her on a surface before Decmeber and jumping on grass is a lot more strainon a horse.

The other way of looking at it is if your daughter jumps her now unaffliated and she doesn't hold up that should be enough proof that she won't last to jump BS. £1,500 seems a lot of money to test a theory.

You might be better off going for LOU now. Do you know how much money they will pay you for LOU (don't tell us, that's private) does the pro SJ route still make it viable?
 

quirky

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Also, just because they have paid out LOU, doesn't mean she can't be ridden, she just won't be insured for the element she has been written off for.

Does that make sense ... I'm not sure it does!!
 

LEC

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Personally I do not think you will have a strong enough claim at the moment you need to be black and white with LOU. I have claimed LOU this year and my horse was definitely lame and will never improve as has athritis so I had no arguments from the insurance company.

1) You need to prove that medical treatment will not make any difference to the problem either now or in the future.

2) I claimed for complete LOU as the horse is lame and will never get better. I am not sure where you stand if its just for one thing like BS if the horse could for instance do BD.

3) You need conclusive evidence that the horse will never jump again, if there is any chance the horse might be able to in the future I think you will have little chance.

4) The final LOU sum is determined by a proffessional valuer. My horse was worth substantially more that he was insured for so I had no arguments as he had a complete competition record which is easy to access. Also the horse is lame so cannot just be a hack. Money is taken off for everything the horse can do so even if you get as far as getting it approved you could end up with very little.

Hope that all makes sense!!
 

MrsMozart

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There are strict criteria to meet before the insurance company will pay out on LOU ... I know from bitter experience :(.

Are you sure the independent vet will sign her off?


Yes. Had a long (long!) conversation with the insurance company. As it's not a cut and dried situation with Dizz they are willing to take the vets reports.

Yes, having spoken to three vets so far on the subject, they will sign off if she can't jump.
 

MrsMozart

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The only thing I can think off, is that she might BS now, but what will happen in the summer when she has to jump on grass? You are only going to be able to try her on a surface before Decmeber and jumping on grass is a lot more strainon a horse.

The other way of looking at it is if your daughter jumps her now unaffliated and she doesn't hold up that should be enough proof that she won't last to jump BS. £1,500 seems a lot of money to test a theory.

You might be better off going for LOU now. Do you know how much money they will pay you for LOU (don't tell us, that's private) does the pro SJ route still make it viable?

Grass. I hadn't thought of that. Very good point, thank you.

Very good point re. daughter jumping her unaffiliated. We could be much steadier and then if anything looks like it's going wrong it hopefully won't go too far wrong (if that makes sense!).

Can't go LOU until we can prove that she won't BS.

The pro route is viable financially. Just don't know if it's worth it to have Dizz sent away; I can't explain it to her.
 

MrsMozart

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How are you going to prove that she can't BS? By jumping her, then is she goes lame that's that? I am so confused!!


No, the aim is not to make her lame. If she isn't happy jumping she will let her rider know. The only time she stops is when she's scared of the fillers, so if she stops or isn't happy coming into a jump we'll know that she's not comfortable. She's one of those horses that lets one know what she is/is not happy with.
 

MrsMozart

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Personally I do not think you will have a strong enough claim at the moment you need to be black and white with LOU. I have claimed LOU this year and my horse was definitely lame and will never improve as has athritis so I had no arguments from the insurance company.

1) You need to prove that medical treatment will not make any difference to the problem either now or in the future.

2) I claimed for complete LOU as the horse is lame and will never get better. I am not sure where you stand if its just for one thing like BS if the horse could for instance do BD.

3) You need conclusive evidence that the horse will never jump again, if there is any chance the horse might be able to in the future I think you will have little chance.

4) The final LOU sum is determined by a proffessional valuer. My horse was worth substantially more that he was insured for so I had no arguments as he had a complete competition record which is easy to access. Also the horse is lame so cannot just be a hack. Money is taken off for everything the horse can do so even if you get as far as getting it approved you could end up with very little.

Hope that all makes sense!!

Thank you, yes, it all made sense. So sorry to hear about your lad.

It is documented that I bought her to BS, which the insurance company are happy with (or as happy as insurance comanies ever are!).

If she does not jump now, then it is documented that her pelvis will not allow it. We discussed it at length in that conversation last year.
 

scally

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To be honest I would think to prove that she "wont" jump BS fences is totally different to she "cant".

An insurance company are not going to accept that her stopping over a 1.20 track will prove its pain it proves she is not brave enough or knowledgeable enough at present to jump that height track.

The definitation here I feel will come down to what they consider to be BS and personally I would think it will be a track over what you can jump unaffiliated which is 1.05. So essentially Newcomers or Foxhunters which is a big ask for any green horse that has not gone BS before over these height courses your time is limited to get her there and a professional would be the route to go.

They will after all not pay out on not having the ability (brave/bold/experience/talent) to jump BS, they will only pay out if she if physically unable to, and to me that means she will have to go lame to show she cant. Otherwise we would all insure on potential and get pay outs.

Hope that makes sense, not sure it does to me :). Can you get the time limit extended on vet advice to the insurance company? Maybe an additional year to claim LOU to give you time, if not then I think a pro is the way to go if you want to go down the LOU claim, bearing in mind the amount of jumping she will have to do to get to the level they will take her out, could break her. Gosh what a hard decision.
 

MrsMozart

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To be honest I would think to prove that she "wont" jump BS fences is totally different to she "cant".

An insurance company are not going to accept that her stopping over a 1.20 track will prove its pain it proves she is not brave enough or knowledgeable enough at present to jump that height track.

The definitation here I feel will come down to what they consider to be BS and personally I would think it will be a track over what you can jump unaffiliated which is 1.05. So essentially Newcomers or Foxhunters which is a big ask for any green horse that has not gone BS before over these height courses your time is limited to get her there and a professional would be the route to go.

They will after all not pay out on not having the ability (brave/bold/experience/talent) to jump BS, they will only pay out if she if physically unable to, and to me that means she will have to go lame to show she cant. Otherwise we would all insure on potential and get pay outs.

Hope that makes sense, not sure it does to me :). Can you get the time limit extended on vet advice to the insurance company? Maybe an additional year to claim LOU to give you time, if not then I think a pro is the way to go if you want to go down the LOU claim, bearing in mind the amount of jumping she will have to do to get to the level they will take her out, could break her. Gosh what a hard decision.

More good points to add to the mix, thank you :)

When I talked to the insurance company, they said that given the nature of the pelvis problem and the report from Rossdales and the AHT, if the vets said she wouldn't make it as a BS horse, then they would accept that. According to the first report she should have gone lame and stayed lame, so it really is an unknown quantity.

Re. time: no, we're up on time. End of this December. I will ask again though ;).

Good point re. the amount of jumping needed possibly breaking her :(. I really don't want her to break - maybe I'm answering my own question there.
 

Puppy

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Personally I do not think you will have a strong enough claim at the moment you need to be black and white with LOU. I have claimed LOU this year and my horse was definitely lame and will never improve as has athritis so I had no arguments from the insurance company.

1) You need to prove that medical treatment will not make any difference to the problem either now or in the future.

2) I claimed for complete LOU as the horse is lame and will never get better. I am not sure where you stand if its just for one thing like BS if the horse could for instance do BD.

3) You need conclusive evidence that the horse will never jump again, if there is any chance the horse might be able to in the future I think you will have little chance.

4) The final LOU sum is determined by a proffessional valuer. My horse was worth substantially more that he was insured for so I had no arguments as he had a complete competition record which is easy to access. Also the horse is lame so cannot just be a hack. Money is taken off for everything the horse can do so even if you get as far as getting it approved you could end up with very little.

Hope that all makes sense!!

Good post, which having been through all the above points raised above myself, I completely agree with.
 

Broodle

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When I talked to the insurance company, they said that given the nature of the pelvis problem and the report from Rossdales and the AHT, if the vets said she wouldn't make it as a BS horse, then they would accept that. According to the first report she should have gone lame and stayed lame, so it really is an unknown quantity.

So is it the vet that is insisting that you prove whether Dizzy can/can't BS before they will write another report? Or the insurance company insisting that you supplement the vet's report? I'm afraid I'm still rather confused!

Whichever it is, have they insisted that you use a pro for the BS trial? It's just that you could pay all this money for a pro to nurse her around some courses, lose the LOU payout, then get her back to find out that you/your daughter can't replicate the pro's results. What I mean is that you may be better off trying yourselves, at least initially, rather than employing the pro, if the vet/insurance company will accept this. After all, you have insured her to be an amateur's SJ horse, not a pro ride. You can always go to the pro later if you think you need the help. Just a thought.

Really sorry to hear about your nasty injury by the way - hope you're making a good recovery.
 

spookypony

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What a difficult problem you have here, Mrs_M! :(

I'll try to come at it from a slightly different angle...

From the money you are contemplating spending for the pro SJer, I suspect the total LOU figure must be reasonably substantial, otherwise I think you wouldn't even be thinking about it. And why do I say that? Well, something you said earlier: "Just don't know if it's worth it to have Dizz sent away; I can't explain it to her." I think that at the core of it, she's your pony, and you let your daughter ride her because right now it's best for all of you, but at the heart of it, you don't really want her to go away for a few months and be someone else's pony. I don't know if horses really think like that (though we all like to think they do!): while they clearly form bonds with people and horses, they also seem to adjust pretty easily to new situations... :confused:

That aside:
To claim loss of use, you need to push Dizzy to the point where she says no. If she doesn't say no by December, you'll have a horse that has been intensively schooled to jump at a certain level in a short time, which could be a good thing for your future together, or a bad thing if it's too fast for her brain. If she does say no, you'll have the money (possibly), and a horse that is potentially permanently injured again, or perhaps she will be able to jump, just not at that level. Either way, she will have been in discomfort to find out. Then again, if you take things slowly now, she might also experience the discomfort, just later down the line...

I think in the end, you need to put the money out of your mind for a moment, and it becomes a moral decision: is there a significant risk of physical/mental injury to Dizzy if she works with the SJ, given the short time frame? Would this short time frame be acceptable to a physically completely sound horse with her current level of schooling? That, I think, is your question.

Whatever you decide, I hope it all works out for the very best for Dizzy and you!
 

MrsMozart

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So is it the vet that is insisting that you prove whether Dizzy can/can't BS before they will write another report? Or the insurance company insisting that you supplement the vet's report? I'm afraid I'm still rather confused!

Whichever it is, have they insisted that you use a pro for the BS trial? It's just that you could pay all this money for a pro to nurse her around some courses, lose the LOU payout, then get her back to find out that you/your daughter can't replicate the pro's results. What I mean is that you may be better off trying yourselves, at least initially, rather than employing the pro, if the vet/insurance company will accept this. After all, you have insured her to be an amateur's SJ horse, not a pro ride. You can always go to the pro later if you think you need the help. Just a thought.

Really sorry to hear about your nasty injury by the way - hope you're making a good recovery.

As Dizz didn't go lame and stay lame when the text books said she 'should' have done, the vets don't know whether she will BS or not, and by BS I mean 1.05 plus tracks. It's a suck it and see situation. The vets do not expect that she will break down, if they did I wouldn't be having these thoughts because she'd never jump so much as a twig if that were the case, rather they expect that she will revert to the odd hind end action that she showed last year, which would mean that she was compromising; at that point I would know, I can feel it in her movement, and I would call a halt and we'd go do something else.

Because it's one of those issues that isn't cut and dried and so many horses go on to be fine, the vets need something to base their LOU support on.

No, the pro was a friend's suggestion as being someone who would be able to help and support Dizz, probably more than D1 can at this stage on the bigger tracks.

Good thought re. your last point. Hadn't thought of it from that angle :)

Thank you for your thoughts. I think I'm improving :)
 

MrsMozart

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Ah SpookyPony.... again, so many nails hit on the head with your words.

I don't want her to go away. I thougth I'd be okay with a week (we would visit every day), but any longer than that? I know I can get a bit soft with this horse, so wanted to sound out others, to see if I was being too emotional and should be thinking that she'd be okay, she'd be in safe hands, and far more experienced hands at that :cool:. Not having had a horse with LOU before, I was wary of being an inexperienced numpt.



**Just spoken to the insurance company. They don't need to have her jump or not, they just need a report from my vet! This is different to what was said last year, but I'm not arguing.

I'm trying to get hold of my vet to talk it through with her.

The insurance company made it sound so straightforward. Made me cry, how soft is that :rolleyes:. If my vet sends the report in saying that Dizz won't BS, the insurance company will get a valuer to call me and then we talk figures, then Dizz would be freezemarked with an L, the insurance company would pay out. If at any point in the future Dizz did jump okay, I would not have to pay the money back, which is a bit weired, but the lady said they couldn't un-freezemark Dizz, they couldn't 'undo' the LOU, so would not expect the money back.

Head is now reeling. So impatient to talk to my vet!

Has now got me wondering whether to give up jumping Dizz or not. She has been fine for the levels we've been doing, so will maybe keep up the grid work (or rather D1 will while I'm broken) and the flat work and build those good foundations :)
 

AandK

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When I talked to the insurance company, they said that given the nature of the pelvis problem and the report from Rossdales and the AHT, if the vets said she wouldn't make it as a BS horse, then they would accept that. According to the first report she should have gone lame and stayed lame, so it really is an unknown quantity.

so if the insurance company are happy to pay out with a vets report, then why does she need to go to a Pro to see if she will cope/break?

why not claim LOU for BS (i am reading that is what you are able to do, correct me if i am wrong) and then you and your daughter can jump her unaff if that is what you decide you want to do with her?

personally i would be wary of sending her away to be worked by a pro, i would be worried it would not end well. to be blunt, it is sending her away to see if she will break and if that happens i don't think you would be able to forgive yourself..

i am just trying to be honest with my opinion here. if it were me, i would forget the pro and just continue to enjoy the horse as she is - happy/sound at present :)
 

Evadiva1514

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Im very confused but i'll admit i have never insured any of mine for LOU as it has always seemed to be a complete minefield to me. How long have you had this LOU claim open and is her problem the same one you were having diagnostic work done for at Rossdales, as i remember her being stabled next to my boy when he was having his keratoma operated on? I can't seem to understand how any insurance company would pay an owner LOU on potential, as another poster pointed out it would be an easy way of making money if you could buy a horse, insure it for a great sum, it not live up to expectations and then you could claim back a large proportion for the sum insured. Just doesn't sound right to me, given how difficult claiming on horse policies has become (and in my opinion quite rightly).

If i were you, i would sink the LOU money that may be offered to you by your insurance company, insure her for vets fees and loss and enjoy her for what she is, if she does eventually become able enough to jump affiliated tracks then that's great, if not then she may never have been destined for that kind of career in the first place and at least you will have (hopefully) enjoyed finding out along the way. Obviously if money is the issue here, then at least you seem to have an understanding vet who will fight your corner and try to get the LOU money owed to you. Good luck in whatever you decide to do!
 

MrsMozart

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so if the insurance company are happy to pay out with a vets report, then why does she need to go to a Pro to see if she will cope/break?

why not claim LOU for BS (i am reading that is what you are able to do, correct me if i am wrong) and then you and your daughter can jump her unaff if that is what you decide you want to do with her?

personally i would be wary of sending her away to be worked by a pro, i would be worried it would not end well. to be blunt, it is sending her away to see if she will break and if that happens i don't think you would be able to forgive yourself..

i am just trying to be honest with my opinion here. if it were me, i would forget the pro and just continue to enjoy the horse as she is - happy/sound at present :)

No, the idea of the pro was to give her the best support/guidance/help/experienced rider.

The initial conversation with the insurerance company included the reference you have highlighted, but the vets at the time would have wanted their report based on what she was capable of, hence now we're 'short on time' due to various things, contemplating having the professional jump her over 1.05 plus tracks. Bearing in mind that the pro might have got on, tried her, and said that there was no way she'd get to that level before the end of December. Nothing was cut and dried, it was all thoughts and fact finding :)

It was not sending her away to see if she would break. It was sending her to him, and I was thinking a week, with D1 and I watching the jump practice because we know the action when she's compensating. It was all yet to be discussed and agreed.

Now the insurance company has said they will go soley with a report from the vet; the vet has had another year of knowing Dizz so may be able to form an opinion based on what she knows. If, however, the vet wants Dizz to be jumped to those heights round a track, then I'll call a halt to the whole thing. The thoughts and ideas etc. were too tangled up in my head, which was why I sarted this thread. Whilst it is my dream to BS to a good level, Dizzy is my reality and that's enough for me for now; we'll see where Life takes us and mayb one day we'll do it and maybe we won't. At the end of the day, the money isn't worth the Dizz :)

P.S. All honesty and opinions much appreciated :). I've been answering everyone's posts, so sorry if I come across as short at any point, just having a niggly time backwise and otherwise, but trying to focus on this issue for now :)
 
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