To scope or not to scope?

[Ceifer]

I've had my horse just over a year now and it's been a bit of a rollercoaster ride. His teeth were sharp when I got him and he had ulcerated cuts in his mouth. He'd also been ridden in draw reins and was very weak behind. Two physios and a body worker later and we're slowly improving.

In addition to this the first livery yard I had him on was shocking (and run by a BHSI!) I moved ASAP due to the lack of turnout- the livery owner saying he was churning up her field in the 2 hours per week he was allowed out by himself. the second yard had year round turnout but was seriously overgrazed and it was a constant battle to get extra forage and he dropped weight so I left there too. He's now on a fantasic yard with carefully managed grazing and a good routine. He's out 21 hours a day and only comes in for a quick check over or if I ride him he comes in for around 3 hours.

But it's always at the back of my mind if he does have ulcers. Very occasionally he gets grouchy when I put his saddle on. But having kept a diary this behaviour on average is once every 12 times of tacking up. I've booked to have his saddle checked (just in case, instructor thinks it's fine but you never know) and I've also booked to have his back done in a couple of weeks. His teeth were done earlier this year and all fine.
He's generally a happy chappy but I've read some horses don't display 'symptoms' What is the procedure for having them scoped? Would you have him scoped?

 

[ycbm]

I certainly would not have him scoped as it requires starving them all night and that's about the last thing that a horse with ulcers needs. I would instead test with either omeprazole from abler.com (dose rate on the site) or ranitidine (one pack fed in two feeds) from Tesco, and see if that changes the behaviour. I have to say that your boy does not sound like a candidate. In my experience, the symptoms are not so intermittent.

If you try ranitidine, the test dose will not treat them properly, you need about seventy tablets a day, if not more, preferably split into four feeds as the effect does not last. For that level of dosing it's much cheaper on eBay.

Of course you should consult your vet first.

 

[Llee94]

Mine didn't show any symptoms at all until she stopped once xc and I took her straight up the vets as it was so unlike her where they scoped and found grade 3/4 ulcers.
But scoping isn't nice for them as they have to be starved of food and water. I would do as ycbm suggested and get some medicine from Abler (much cheaper than any vets!) and try that out and if you see an improvement you know that was the issue so keep using it for the suggested time.
It also might be worth getting his back checked. He may just have a sore spot.

 

[Ceifer]

Hi both

Thanks for your replies. . He is booked in for his back to be checked. I have him done every six months

How long would I do the test for?

 

[ycbm]

My experience is results show in a few days, but if yours isn't showing symptoms very often it'll be difficult for you to tell.

Regarding getting his back checked, the only way to tell if he has kissing spines is with x rays, I'm afraid.

If your only symptom is grouchy with the tacking up once every two weeks, it does sound like you might be worrying about nothing. On the other hand, you obviously have a gut feel things are not right, so if you can afford it, I'd have some precautionary x rays and flexion tests done by the vet.

 

[AshTay]

I don't know whether your horse's symptoms might be ulcers or not but scoping really isn't as bad as made out above. My mare has been scoped four times and the experience doesn't appear to have traumatised her at all and she still seems to enjoy going into the stables at the vets (where she is starved overnight but allowed water). Scoping is the only sure way of knowing if there are ulcers or not. Talk to your vet.

 

[Wheels]

I probably wouldn't scope yet!

I would get the back done by a good physio and straight away after that get the saddle checked.

It could well be either of those things causing your problems.

If she still isn't good after that I would scope.

Feeding expensive and possibly unnecessary medicine and / or supplements is not what I would want to do.

 

[ycbm]

I don't know whether your horse's symptoms might be ulcers or not but scoping really isn't as bad as made out above.

Treatment for ulcers is to keep the stomach always with food in it because horses produce acid continuously, not just when they eat. Scoping to diagnose them is the total reverse of this. Your horse may have needed scoping more than twice because the scoping itself aggravated half healed ulcers, who knows?

 

[JanetGeorge]

I've had a couple of young horses whose behaviour suggested ulcers. Get Nexium (off E-bay) - 7 tablets a day for a week will show an improvement if it IS ulcers - and keep going for another 4 weeks for a cure. It's a lot cheaper and easier than scoping! But you DO need to remember that horses remember pain - even though they don't understand it! So it will take time for the full effect to 'work'!

 

[poiuytrewq]

I certainly would not have him scoped as it requires starving them all night and that's about the last thing that a horse with ulcers needs. I would instead test with either omeprazole from abler.com (dose rate on the site) or ranitidine (one pack fed in two feeds) from Tesco, and see if that changes the behaviour. I have to say that your boy does not sound like a candidate. In my experience, the symptoms are not so intermittent.

If you try ranitidine, the test dose will not treat them properly, you need about seventy tablets a day, if not more, preferably split into four feeds as the effect does not last. For that level of dosing it's much cheaper on eBay.

Of course you should consult your vet first.

This is pretty much what I thought before opening your thread op!
I might not have actually written it as last time I did I got pulverised for suggesting it!
My horse is a major wind sucker and there was no way I'd leave him in over night (or even for a few hours!) with no hay so I went to Abler and did it that way.
Omeprazole is omeprazole, it's the same product as gastro guard and a fraction of the cost

 

[ycbm]

I've had a couple of young horses whose behaviour suggested ulcers. Get Nexium (off E-bay) - 7 tablets a day for a week will show an improvement if it IS ulcers - and keep going for another 4 weeks for a cure. It's a lot cheaper and easier than scoping! But you DO need to remember that horses remember pain - even though they don't understand it! So it will take time for the full effect to 'work'!

Nexium is esomeprazole. Dose rate for omeprazole (gastroguard) is much higher than that. I can't find a dose rate for esomeprazole in horses by googling. Can I ask where you got that from Janet? It makes it much cheaper to treat a horse if that dose rate works.

Can I advise people to wean the drug down, not just stop it?. Acid bounceback has been recorded with suddenly stopping omeprazole, setting things off again.

 

[scats]

Mine went to be scoped at Leahurst but he put a vet in hospital after rearing on his head so the procedure was abandoned. We treated him with a course of gastroguard anyway.

 

[SarahWeston]

I would scope and then you will know. You may find that your insurance will not cover you for medication that hasn't been indicated as a result of a scope and, if you decided to scope later, they will ask you when you first suspected ulcers - and you'll only be insured for up to a year from THAT date. I spoke to a vet recently who said that he is finding it very hard to predict which horses will turn out to have ulcers and which will not. Those with the standard symptoms may turn out not to have any whereas a native pony, kept out 24/7 may turn out to have them.

 

[Ceriann]

I've had a couple of young horses whose behaviour suggested ulcers. Get Nexium (off E-bay) - 7 tablets a day for a week will show an improvement if it IS ulcers - and keep going for another 4 weeks for a cure. It's a lot cheaper and easier than scoping! But you DO need to remember that horses remember pain - even though they don't understand it! So it will take time for the full effect to 'work'!

Echo that - mine was scoped and had marked ulceration (1s, 2s and 3s). 12 weeks of treatment - omrazopole - full dose followed by weaning and she scoped clear BUT weeks later and we are still only at walk ridden. She's come a long way (would barely take a step without cow kicking) but we've got a long way to go!

 

[curio]

mine had the succeed test on his faeces came back with guaranteed stomach ulcers i havnt scoped hit but treated with ompreazole and changed diet

 

[Rosesandhorses]

One of my previous horses was scoped for ulcers and it's something I would do again if I felt it necessary. He was dropping weight so quickly and I wanted to get to the bottom of it sooner rather than later and a quick answer was needed. He stayed in the vets overnight and was starved and then heavily sedated and had the scope done in the morning. It came back as negative for ulcers which I was delighted with and meant we could move on and rule other things out. In your case I'm not sure I would be getting it done at this stage but if it was playing on my mind I would speak to my vet about having it done. My insurance covered it as it went under investigations for weight loss and of course because he was ulcer free it wasn't ruled out when my insurance renewed.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Nexium is esomeprazole. Dose rate for omeprazole (gastroguard) is much higher than that. I can't find a dose rate for esomeprazole in horses by googling. Can I ask where you got that from Janet? It makes it much cheaper to treat a horse if that dose rate works.

lol, I just took a guess according to human dose. For adults it's 1-2 tablets daily. It seems to work! You really have to look hard on E-bay to get the best price. They vary enormously!

 

[Wheels]

mine had the succeed test on his faeces came back with guaranteed stomach ulcers i havnt scoped hit but treated with ompreazole and changed diet

Yes so did mine but scoped and no ulcers!!

So my vet also did a blood test for migrating worms as these can cause a false positive and yes, my horse had migrating red worm so wormed him again and second succeed test came back clear

 

[AshTay]

Treatment for ulcers is to keep the stomach always with food in it because horses produce acid continuously, not just when they eat. Scoping to diagnose them is the total reverse of this. Your horse may have needed scoping more than twice because the scoping itself aggravated half healed ulcers, who knows?

Sorry but I disagree. Yes, starving/restricting forage for a horse for prolonged periods of time can result in ulcers due to excess acid but it's unlikely to have any sort of significant effect over the ~12 hours or so a horse is left without food for scoping (and there is still actually some food left in stomach even after that time- it can be seen on the scope!). Scoping is the only thing that gives you a definitive answer so that you can treat the horse correctly without resorting to guess work or spending £££s on supplements that may or may not make a jot of difference.

 

[ycbm]

Sorry but I disagree. Yes, starving/restricting forage for a horse for prolonged periods of time can result in ulcers due to excess acid but it's unlikely to have any sort of significant effect over the ~12 hours or so a horse is left without food for scoping (and there is still actually some food left in stomach even after that time- it can be seen on the scope!). Scoping is the only thing that gives you a definitive answer so that you can treat the horse correctly without resorting to guess work or spending £££s on supplements that may or may not make a jot of difference.

But treatment with non branded omeprazole, a drug which is extremely safe, costs less than a scoping and doesn't put the horse through an unpleasant procedure. In those circumstances, especially if your horse is not insured, I really don't see the point of scoping. There isn't much guesswork or £££ involved if you have a horse with symptoms and those symptoms stop within a couple of days of starting a test with a small quantity. I have heard of many occasions when vets take this approach.

 

[ycbm]

lol, I just took a guess according to human dose. For adults it's 1-2 tablets daily. It seems to work! You really have to look hard on E-bay to get the best price. They vary enormously!

This is interesting because the omeprazole recommended dose is massively bigger than the human one, but I read some recent research that they are seeing success with much reduced dosages. So it may have been too high all along!

 

[AshTay]

This is interesting because the omeprazole recommended dose is massively bigger than the human one, but I read some recent research that they are seeing success with much reduced dosages. So it may have been too high all along!

^ My mares ulcers were in the lower glandular part of her tummy and not the squamous part. We did the recommended full dose for 4 weeks then reduced initially and she went from Grade 3 to almost perfect. We then scoped again a few months later and she still had some small areas but not enough that the vet was concerned. Based on what was probably the research you refer to above which suggested that a lower dose over a longer period of time was more effective for glandular ulcers, we decided to try 1/4 dose omeprazole for 6 weeks to see what happened and it resulted in a very near perfect tummy (still one tiny patch but again very low grade).

 

[JanetGeorge]

But treatment with non branded omeprazole, a drug which is extremely safe, costs less than a scoping and doesn't put the horse through an unpleasant procedure. In those circumstances, especially if your horse is not insured, I really don't see the point of scoping. There isn't much guesswork or £££ involved if you have a horse with symptoms and those symptoms stop within a couple of days of starting a test with a small quantity. I have heard of many occasions when vets take this approach.

Exactly. I hae a 4yo - just backing - and he's been a nut job from the first time we tried to put the roller on. I suspected kissing spines (as he has 3 full siblings who have had that) so coughed up £250 for the x-rays. Nothing! So onto the Nexium (and I'm going to try Aloe Vera gel too) Ordered a new supply today and for both it will cost me £50 a week. If there's no sign of an improvement in 2 weeks, I'll just start wondering if he has a screw loose.

 

[BethanT]

lol, I just took a guess according to human dose. For adults it's 1-2 tablets daily. It seems to work! You really have to look hard on E-bay to get the best price. They vary enormously!

My vet advised 2 tablets daily for 28 days and my big is around 550/600kgs.

 

[BethanT]

Sorry but I disagree. Yes, starving/restricting forage for a horse for prolonged periods of time can result in ulcers due to excess acid but it's unlikely to have any sort of significant effect over the ~12 hours or so a horse is left without food for scoping (and there is still actually some food left in stomach even after that time- it can be seen on the scope!). Scoping is the only thing that gives you a definitive answer so that you can treat the horse correctly without resorting to guess work or spending £££s on supplements that may or may not make a jot of difference.

My vet has actually advised to go down the route of supplements and over the counter human medicines because he doesn't want to go straight to scope! My horse is insured btw so it's not the cost.

His argument is that if you go looking for problems you will find them, especially as 80% of horses do have ulceration to some degree.

 

[Goldenstar]

I don't know whether your horse's symptoms might be ulcers or not but scoping really isn't as bad as made out above. My mare has been scoped four times and the experience doesn't appear to have traumatised her at all and she still seems to enjoy going into the stables at the vets (where she is starved overnight but allowed water). Scoping is the only sure way of knowing if there are ulcers or not. Talk to your vet.

My horse got jaundice due to the starving all it took for a bit of a unavoidable delay at the vets and he ended up without food for twenty hours .
He was Ill for fortnight .
Our vets now starve a shorter time than they did.
My vets would love a look in C,s tummy ( he has unexplained bouts of pain ) but I wont let them scope him my view is after KS surgery and a broken rib and six months of ulcer medication there's no point in putting him through it .
I would not scope a horse on the basis of what you have said .

 

[Notimetoride]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with some of the advice you have been given. My cob wasn't showing any of the classic symptoms but I just felt something wasn't quite right. After investigating everything the next on the list was ulcers. You absolutely do not starve the horse of food and water overnight ! They can't eat for 8 hours beforehand. This isn't ideal for ulcers but is absolutely necessary to get an accurate diagnosis and then the correct treatment.
She turned out to have bleeding grade 3 ulcers and was in considerable pain so was immediately treated with gastrogard and sufalcrate (and also tweaked the feed and management). 4 weeks later had her second scope and and was clear. It was the best thing I did for her and I will do it again in future as many times as I need to if it means she is comfortable and happy.