To shoe or not to shoe? Opinion on these feet pls.

Spyda

Spyda

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My WBxTB is shod in front only ATM. I was hoping she'd be able to continue in this fashion but the above photo shows the wear to her hinds from merely bumming about her field over winter. The farrier had just been to re-shoe infront and he trimmed her frogs but hasn't taken anything off the foot. She's still walking about on her white lines after 8 months without hind shoes and I've tried Cavallo boots for when I hack out (she's just come back into work this week) but they've rubbed badly.

Farrier is due out this Tuesday.... so do I just give up and have her shod behind or is there something miraculous that I can do to make her hind feet stronger and up to the job?
 
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Oberon said:
Yikes - what is she eating?
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600g Spiller's Lite balancer, 300g linseed meal, straw chaff to mix and ad-lib hay.

Between ages of 2 and 4 she was given Farrier's Formula but it didn't make the slightest difference. Her feet grow (as her fronts prove when trimmed at re-shoeing every 4 weeks) but the horn must be soft. She's a big horse with small feet. Dunno if this helps matters but it's ridiculous that her feet are sooo worn when she's been living out 24/7 for the past 5 months with no road work.
 
Spyda said:
600g Spiller's Lite balancer, 300g linseed meal, straw chaff to mix and ad-lib hay.

Between ages of 2 and 4 she was given Farrier's Formula but it didn't make the slightest difference. Her feet grow (as her fronts prove when trimmed at re-shoeing every 4 weeks) but the horn must be soft. She's a big horse with small feet. Dunno if this helps matters but it's ridiculous that her feet are sooo worn when she's been living out 24/7 for the past 5 months with no road work.
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I agree that the wear is disproportionate.

I was expecting you to say you were feeding a racehorse mix with a litre of molasses
eek.gif
but your diet looks sensible.

I can only conclude that there must be something waaay off with your forage.
Unless you can get to the bottom of what's going on with that, then I would agree that shoes are a good idea.
 
Ok, I'm no professional and pics are so misleading but I see something in the sole that is often linked to sugar sensitivity or excess dietary sugars. If you look a couple of cms in front to the frog you will see a colour change in the sole from white to creamy. This goes right round the hoof and 'looks like' it could be what is called lamella wedge. In my understanding this forms when there is a stretch in the white line and it's a weaker keratin than sole or wall and effectively fills in the gap (stretched white line) between the wall and true sole.
Have a look here. http://www.flickr.com/photos/51779983@N05/5649713273/

Pollitt and Bowker have theories about how this is formed that don't quite agree but it is a well documented phenomenon.

Grass and hays are the biggest potential source of dietary sugars...
Have you mentioned it to your farrier? Can he explain the colour change in the sole?
 
Oberon said:
I agree that the wear is disproportionate.

I was expecting you to say you were feeding a racehorse mix with a litre of molasses
eek.gif
but your diet looks sensible.

I can only conclude that there must be something waaay off with your forage.
Unless you can get to the bottom of what's going on with that, then I would agree that shoes are a good idea.
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Well I'm glad there's nothing glaringly bad with her diet. She's been on pretty much the same diet since birth - albeit Stud Balancer instead of a lite balancer when she was young. She's had to be shod in front since she was 15 months old due to bench knees which is why we tried Farrier's Formula whilst she was still quite young; Her front shoes kept pulling off. These days that's not a problem, but as you can see the unshod hind feet are still troublesome. Not sure what could be so wrong with the hay we're using, although I agree I could get a sample analysed next year. I'm a little concerned about the sugars in the springs grass but I guess that's an annual problem for all of us.
 
amandap said:
Have you mentioned it to your farrier? Can he explain the colour change in the sole?
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Thanks for the reply. My farrier just thinks she needs to be shod behind. Asks what else I expect with the "poxy" TB feet she has. :rolleyes: Tres helpful NOT.
 
Spyda said:
Well I'm glad there's nothing glaringly bad with her diet. She's been on pretty much the same diet since birth - albeit Stud Balancer instead of a lite balancer when she was young. She's had to be shod in front since she was 15 months old due to bench knees which is why we tried Farrier's Formula whilst she was still quite young; Her front shoes kept pulling off. These days that's not a problem, but as you can see the unshod hind feet are still troublesome. Not sure what could be so wrong with the hay we're using, although I agree I could get a sample analysed next year. I'm a little concerned about the sugars in the springs grass but I guess that's an annual problem for all of us.
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A defect from birth and poor quality hooves is screaming that something is off with your forage to me.
http://shop.forageplus.com/

Shoes will make her more comfortable - but won't fix the underlying problem.
 
Spyda said:
Thanks for the reply. My farrier just thinks she needs to be shod behind. Asks what else I expect with the "poxy" TB feet she has. :rolleyes: Tres helpful NOT.
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Not very helpful no. Tb's don't have to have poxy feet. :(

Tbh, I'd be inclined to use boots and pads rather than shoe and my opinion is a strict diet may well help. I'd consider treating her as a laminitic for six months and see how she goes. x

ps. My tb is sensitive to sugars and needs grass restricting and soaked hay for periods.

This is just my opinion. x
 
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amandap said:
Not very helpful no. Tb's don't have to have poxy feet. :(
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Very true! Her dam (a full TB) was unshod most of her life (she was also homebred) without any problems. In fact all my TB breeding stock lived out unshod for years without problems like this. This mare's sire is Polish WB and I don't have any experience of their feet! Perhaps farrier should be blaming HIM!! :D

amandap said:
Tbh, I'd be inclined to use boots and pads rather than shoe and my opinion is a strict diet may well help. I'd consider treating her as a laminitic for six months and see how she goes. x
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I'm pursevering with the Cavallos. But she's VERY thinned skinned so it was almost inevitable we'd have some teething troubles getting her hardened to wearing hoof boots. It might be helpful if she could be turned out in them (as she's presently stabled between 4pm and 10am on rubber mats and straw) but she'd never stand wearing them for that long at a time - even with a sock or Vetwrap a padding and protection.
 
I'm wondering if you farrier could actually apply a shoe to that foot. She seems to be walking on her soles.

have you tried a specific hoof supplement? Equimins Hoof Mender comes highly recommended in the UK, and they now do a money back guarantee.

I can't see the harm in treating her like a laminitic for a period of time, to see if there is a metabolic component to her poor feet also.

Good luck :)
 
Id also be on boots and pads, as to put nails into a hoof already that compromised seems very risky to me.

The cavallos either didnt fit properly, or arent the right shape for her feet. Easy boot gloves dont come above the coronet band and if you vet wrap the hoof, put the glove on and then the powerstrap they will stay put for a few days apparently.

Id also look at a consultation with a UKHNCP trimmer and see what they advise :)
 
I'd really recomend you get your forage and or grazing analysed as until you do, you really don't know what you're feeding and then get a diet plan writen for you... I know of a few people with 'problem' feet (repeated abscesses. footiness etc) who have found the hooves improve once fed minerals balanced to their forage... I've just had mine done and was really supprised by the results... am just waiting for my feeding plan :)

As said, I don't know HOW you'd get shoes on those feet as they stand...
 
They scream metabolic issues to me too Spyda. Is there a farmer near you with a mineral analysis of his land? Very high iron and/or manganese and/or molybdenum will produce that effect due to lack of copper absorption, whether or not the land is low in copper itself.

Have any black horses or cows around you gone red/brown? Chestnut horses faded in colour? Are you aware of any issues with anaemia in the area?

Without waiting for an analysis, though I would want one, I would personally supplement a safe dose of copper, 100mg daily, immediately and see what happens.
 
Can you get someone in to take a look who isn't your farrier if all he says is poxy tb feet!

I had a farrier once who did the job but ask anything about changes in the hoof or observations I'd made and he couldn't/wouldn't answer and I'm a very annoying owner who likes to know!

I changed to a barefoot trimmer who really helped and educated me about the hoof, I ended up dealing with lamintis and the advice and help was invaluable from diet to structure and any slight change and he was willing to take the time to show me. He moved away and so I use someone else now who is also really helpful

I'm not saying change your farrier but it might be worth someone coming out and giving you an opinion.
 
cptrayes said:
They scream metabolic issues to me too Spyda. Is there a farmer near you with a mineral analysis of his land? Very high iron and/or manganese and/or molybdenum will produce that effect due to lack of copper absorption, whether or not the land is low in copper itself.

Have any black horses or cows around you gone red/brown? Chestnut horses faded in colour? Are you aware of any issues with anaemia in the area?
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She was very 'down' all of last year. I had two blood series run in 2011. Both suggested the mare was anaemic and showed signed of liver damage. The vet put the liver damage down to a viral infection and for the anaemia put her on a supplement. The latter bloods showed an improvement, but not perfect yet.

She was born at stud and lived there mixing with their youngsters until she was 2, then I moved her to where she is now; a large farm (dairy) with 40+ horses on site. Problem with getting a grass analysis is the yard move the horses regularly and without much notice. If I take a grass sample from her current paddock, will that give a good indication of the surrounding paddocks too? Enough of an indication for potential problems, I mean? Same goes with the hay I am using. For the past 3 years I have used the yard's home made hay (as do all the other 40+ horses), but this year I helped make some for a friend about a mile away and am using the free hay I got in lieu. My point is, do I have to get both hay batches sampled? Could become rather expensive and how reliable is a spot analysis? Do you find it's enough of an accurate gauge for a whole barnful of hay? Sorry for the questions. I would like to get to the bottom of this since she's never been neglected in anyway and it's a bit of a mystery why she is the way she is.
 
I have a thin skinned T.B who I didn,t think could be turned out in boots, but he is doing ok in his cavallos, I pad out the heel area.
My farrier is not interested in barefoot and is no help at all, I gave him a chance to trim him, horse was so sore the next day he walked like a laminitic, I won,t make that mistake again!
I have now contacted Lucy on here and she is going to come out and see him, it will a big relief to get some good help and support especially as I am in a yard where nobody understands proper barefoot and they just think I am nuts!!!
 
amandap said:
Anaemia in horses can be caused by copper deficiency.
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That's why I asked AmandaP, and I think that Spyda should get her horse onto copper sulphate (equimins phone up order) or copper bioplex/proteinate (forageplus) immediately. Copper is poisonous in excess but 1 gramme a day of bioplex/proteintate is safe. I give ine about 1.5 gramms and see a huge difference in concavity in one of them.
 
cptrayes said:
That's why I asked AmandaP, and I think that Spyda should get her horse onto copper sulphate (equimins phone up order) or copper bioplex/proteinate (forageplus) immediately. Copper is poisonous in excess but 1 gramme a day of bioplex/proteintate is safe. I give ine about 1.5 gramms and see a huge difference in concavity in one of them.
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I guessed that was why. I was backing up your recommendation of giving copper in my round about way. :) Zinc is another mineral commonly deficient.
 
Hi Spyda,
I think you need a supplement. I am also in Devon and my hay came from various places in the S Hams. Far different from my grazing so I thought I had all bases covered. Wrong. My feet never grew. Or at least they grew but then wore away far too quickly.
I turned the problem around in a couple of months by feeding equimins meta balance (although there are a few other good supplements as well)
So much has improved about the horse since starting the MB. not just his feet but his coat and his general overall health.
Our ground is high iron and manganese, low copper and selenium
The MB provides copper and zinc which seem to have made so much difference to the feet. Now I have a horse with normal horse feet which grow and don't wear away. I also feed additional mg on top of the MB.
This sort of supplement may indicate your problem. The results may be good enough or they may indicate some improvement in which case you will know you will have to consider mineral balancing.
 
OP - I agree that the hoof in the photo looks like it may be suffering from some form of nutritional or equivalent disorder. I say equivalent because in some areas I work there sees to be a high incidence of liver problems and the side effects can be seen in the feet.

But as an extra note - my old horse had bench knees - quite bad ones on reflection. Apart from them used as an excuse by some for various things which she turned out not to have, I never found them to be a problem for her - but then she was barefoot and grew the foot she needed for the knees she had.

But of course you first have to get the hooves to grow.

And sugar geeks might be interested - sorry for the hyjack - our local hay has just tested at over 18% sugar....... and it doesn't even smell or look very nice so many would think it to be ok.
 
LucyPriory said:
And sugar geeks might be interested - sorry for the hyjack - our local hay has just tested at over 18% sugar....... and it doesn't even smell or look very nice so many would think it to be ok.
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Is that just sugars not carbs as well? Just goes to show that you can't tell from looking at or smelling hay.
 
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Spyda said:
She was very 'down' all of last year. I had two blood series run in 2011. Both suggested the mare was anaemic and showed signed of liver damage. The vet put the liver damage down to a viral infection and for the anaemia put her on a supplement. The latter bloods showed an improvement, but not perfect yet.
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What supplement did you put her on?

My mare has been having liver problems for a few months, I had my hay analysed which showed it had very high Iron, Manganese and Calcium levels.
As an immediate precaution we've put her on half hayalge high fibre (and will be having a blood test in 10days to see if this has made a difference)
 
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