Toes turning out - what does it mean?

[SusannaF]

I am a chronic turner-out-of-toes and just came back from a day's ride with knackered knees.

I see to remember reading somewhere here that the toe problem was the result of another posture problem while riding. Something to do with knees.

See where I'm going here?

Anyone care to enlighten me?

 

[Emilieu]

Don't know the answer but am another culprit of the same so interested in the replies!x

 

[Deseado]

Turning out of toes usually means the rider is gripping with the calves and tensing the thigh, most also tip forwards from the waist while this is going on and can't use the seat properly.

 

[Queenbee]

when Im schooling my toes tend to creep out and it all goes a bit tits up, my backs a bit bad at the moment and it seems to add to it all. Anyway, my trainer told be to just focus on my calf muscles (ignore the fact you have toes at all) make sure you wrap your inside leg around the horse, focus on that inside (NOT the back of the calf) leg touching the saddle... and bobs your uncle toes are pointing in.

 

[Deseado]

You also need to lengthen and loosen (actually FLATTEN) the thigh, if you do that then the knee naturally turns slightly in and Bob's your uncle, the calf goes where it needs to be, the toes point forwards and incidentally, your heel lowers too.

 

[Queenbee]

You also need to lengthen and loosen (actually FLATTEN) the thigh, if you do that then the knee naturally turns slightly in and Bob's your uncle, the calf goes where it needs to be, the toes point forwards and incidentally, your heel lowers too.

yep youre right, some good old no stirrup work helps with that, and I always do my cool down walk at the end of the hack without stirrups, I do the good old calf stretches at the same time

 

[SusannaF]

You also need to lengthen and loosen (actually FLATTEN) the thigh, if you do that then the knee naturally turns slightly in and Bob's your uncle, the calf goes where it needs to be, the toes point forwards and incidentally, your heel lowers too.

That's the one Thank you. That's what the teacher was trying to get me to do in my last lesson... and why I spent most of it without stirrups.

 

[tallyho!]

Without stirrups when riding is probably very good for you!!!!!

 

[SusannaF]

Without stirrups when riding is probably very good for you!!!!!

Yes and no. I have a connective tissue disorder which means my joints are weak so I could barely walk for a week after that stirrup-free session!

 

[tallyho!]

Yes and no. I have a connective tissue disorder which means my joints are weak so I could barely walk for a week after that stirrup-free session!

Oh, well if I knew that, I wouldn't have said. My crystal ball obviously malfunctioning again....

Another good thing to do, is at halt, lengthen your spine, bring your head back directly on top of your spine, tilt your pelvis so you are sitting right on your bottom. This will automatically relax those inner thigh muscles and achieve a "lengthened & loosened" thigh. It's all in the back.

If you are not balanced up top, your legs will grip down below. Your centre of gravity needs to be right between your upper hip bones.

My teacher used to make us balance on a swiss ball for aaaaaaaaaages. If we touched the floor with our feet, no riding that day Meanie. I got my balance pdq though.

 

[planete]

If you have a physical problem try doing your ridden corrective exercises for a very short while then thoroughly relax and rest before doing a bit more. Explain to your teacher that little and more often is better for you than a long session. I have found that letting the hip muscles relax is key to 'draping the legs' around the horse. I do not know how much you can do but if you look at vidoes of some para riders their legs look totally ineffective/all over the place so leg position problems might also be something you have to ignore and compensate for with your balance and timing.

I have learnt never to push myself out of my comfort zone for more than a few seconds. If I cannot ride again within a couple of days, I know I have overdone it and adjust my schooling accordingly the next time. I now school for 20/30 mn twice a week then lunge before the week end so I can enjoy it without too many aches and pains. And well done for keeping up with the riding when it is obviously such a challenge.

 

[rockysmum]

I dont have a physical problem, other than getting old and stiff damaged joints. I also learned to ride in the days when we were told to "grip with your knees" they even stuck bits of paper between your knee and the saddle and it had to be there at the end of the lesson

Gripping with your knees makes your toes turn out, you would need to be a contortonist (sp) to turn them in.

I tried everything, including long periods without stirrups. Going without stirrups made me grip more which made be even more unstable

I finally cracked it with the help of a lovely instructor. He had me actually thinking about keeping my knees away from the saddle. This drops your weight into the stirrups, brings your toes into line and makes you sit correctly. I still practice it if I haven't ridden for a while. Once you are sitting deeper you can work on getting everything right. I even do this without stirrups to stop the reflex action of gripping if you think you are sliding.

Might not be right but it works for me.

 

[Wheels]

Does this happen on every horse you ride? This was happening to me and I really had to force my feet forwards but then when I rode my friends horse and I was cured. Turns out it was my saddle, the twist was too wide which meant my hips were not forwards enough which was turning my whole leg outwards. No wonder my ankles were hurting afterwards

 

[SusannaF]

Oh, well if I knew that, I wouldn't have said. My crystal ball obviously malfunctioning again....

Another good thing to do, is at halt, lengthen your spine, bring your head back directly on top of your spine, tilt your pelvis so you are sitting right on your bottom. This will automatically relax those inner thigh muscles and achieve a "lengthened & loosened" thigh. It's all in the back.

If you are not balanced up top, your legs will grip down below. Your centre of gravity needs to be right between your upper hip bones.

My teacher used to make us balance on a swiss ball for aaaaaaaaaages. If we touched the floor with our feet, no riding that day Meanie. I got my balance pdq though.

Well, I think if I attached my medical details to every HHO message I'd have complaints

I used to have a Swiss Ball... Probs a good idea to have one again for the hours of sitting in front of a computer might as well make them count. Will have a go with the stretching technique too. Thank you

 

[SusannaF]

@Rocky'sMum – my mum used to be appalled by the daylight between my knees and the saddle. Obviously I need to get back to that!

@Wheels – yup, every horse for life and every saddle from Aussie stock saddles to standard English.

@Planete – my teacher was sympathetic as she teaches others with the same problem - it was me that overdid it. I'm looking for a chance to ride more often now and that will mean (a) riding better so there aren't problems like this and (b) being realistic about how much I can do. Sometimes you want to "push" yourself to achieve more, and sometimes that's the right thing to do, but other times it's a bad idea

 

[winkles]

I feel your pain, I used to do this quite severely a while ago, whenever I had to direct all my concentration on to one thing, ie, jumping, my leg position went out of the window.

I also have weaker leg muscles than some riders and I don't know what sort of boots you wear to ride, so feel free to ignore this next bit as it might just be waffle, but, when I upgraded my short boots & chaps to long field boots I noticed that my leg position had improved immediately, the moment I got on the horse with them. I now don't have to work and exert lots of energy to get my leg/toe position, it just comes naturally.

Maybe this issue is a support issue for some people (esp those with weaker muscles/med conditions), not just an issue of technique?

 

[SusannaF]

I feel your pain, I used to do this quite severely a while ago, whenever I had to direct all my concentration on to one thing, ie, jumping, my leg position went out of the window.

I also have weaker leg muscles than some riders and I don't know what sort of boots you wear to ride, so feel free to ignore this next bit as it might just be waffle, but, when I upgraded my short boots & chaps to long field boots I noticed that my leg position had improved immediately, the moment I got on the horse with them. I now don't have to work and exert lots of energy to get my leg/toe position, it just comes naturally.

Maybe this issue is a support issue for some people (esp those with weaker muscles/med conditions), not just an issue of technique?

Long cheapy boots - no flexibility. Fall upstairs whenever I wear them

I wish I could find a physio who understood the issue and could "prescribe" the right exercises and things to look out for. The ride yesterday was good for my back, just not my knees

 

[Archiepoo]

Hi i had the same problem with my toes pointing out and my knees and ankles hurting every time i rode-turned out for me its my back and in a GP saddle i was collapsing .-since swapping to a dressage saddle its put my pelvis into the right position so im not trying to hold my self up into the right position,as a consequence my legs now fall into the right place and i also use wedged stirrup treads which stabilize your knees and ankles -now i can ride for hours and no pain! its wonderful.

 

[SusannaF]

Hi i had the same problem with my toes pointing out and my knees and ankles hurting every time i rode-turned out for me its my back and in a GP saddle i was collapsing .-since swapping to a dressage saddle its put my pelvis into the right position so im not trying to hold my self up into the right position,as a consequence my legs now fall into the right place and i also use wedged stirrup treads which stabilize your knees and ankles -now i can ride for hours and no pain! its wonderful.

Wedged stirrup treads! Now that sounds like a smart idea. The outside of my left ankle always starts to hurt after a while. Hmmm. (Yes, just the left, probably because my spine and pelvis are permanently wonky)

 

[Archiepoo]

these are what i use http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wedge-Ang...r_Equipment&hash=item4d04a764fe#ht_500wt_1288 . put the chunky end to the outside of ur foot. it does feel a bit odd for the first couple of times and u will need to let ur stirrups down a hole but theyre brill!