Tokyo Pentathlon SJ

teapot

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Why does that have anything to do with being utterly horrified at what those horses are put through?
It doesn't, just pointing out your cannot compare MP to the main three disciplines.

Did you watch any of the men's? Much better, and again, not disimilar to what we have ALL seen out and about every weekend. Does that horrify you too? Regardless of level, basic welfare is basic welfare - why do so many people turn a blind eye to what happens out at BE 90/100 with riders who probably actually have more experience and know better than these MP competitors? Or people who use their horses as a glorified movable chair out hunting? Yet there's utter uproar about the modern penthalon every four years?

The double standard is what gets on my tits. Perhaps that's the issue - MP riding is far closer to home than some people (generally, not personally) would care to admit...
 

Rowreach

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It doesn't, just pointing out your cannot compare MP to the main three disciplines.

Did you watch any of the men's? Much better, and again, not disimilar to what we have ALL seen out and about every weekend. Does that horrify you too? Regardless of level, basic welfare is basic welfare - why do so many people turn a blind eye to what happens out at BE 90/100 with riders who probably actually have more experience and know better than these MP competitors? Or people who use their horses as a glorified movable chair out hunting? Yet there's utter uproar about the modern penthalon every four years?

The double standard is what gets on my tits. Perhaps that's the issue - MP riding is far closer to home than some people (generally, not personally) would care to admit...
Well as it goes I think the pure showjumping this week has been pretty horrific too.

And maybe an uproar about the things that have been shown on worldwide screens will filter down and that will be good for all horse welfare.

I can’t believe anyone is defending this “sport” tbh.
 

milliepops

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It doesn't, just pointing out your cannot compare MP to the main three disciplines.

Did you watch any of the men's? Much better, and again, not disimilar to what we have ALL seen out and about every weekend. Does that horrify you too? Regardless of level, basic welfare is basic welfare - why do so many people turn a blind eye to what happens out at BE 90/100 with riders who probably actually have more experience and know better than these MP competitors? Or people who use their horses as a glorified movable chair out hunting? Yet there's utter uproar about the modern penthalon every four years?

The double standard is what gets on my tits. Perhaps that's the issue - MP riding is far closer to home than some people (generally, not personally) would care to admit...
yeah i have to agree with this. it's on TV and in the news because there are medals at stake so everyone is seeing it. but like you say the issues are not unique to MP as a sport.
 

ycbm

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It doesn't, just pointing out your cannot compare MP to the main three disciplines.

Did you watch any of the men's? Much better, and again, not disimilar to what we have ALL seen out and about every weekend. Does that horrify you too? Regardless of level, basic welfare is basic welfare - why do so many people turn a blind eye to what happens out at BE 90/100 with riders who probably actually have more experience and know better than these MP competitors? Or people who use their horses as a glorified movable chair out hunting? Yet there's utter uproar about the modern penthalon every four years?

The double standard is what gets on my tits. Perhaps that's the issue - MP riding is far closer to home than some people (generally, not personally) would care to admit...

How can you stop the lower level crap if stuff like that is shown all around the world at the Olympics every 4 years as acceptable?

It has to start somewhere and it can't start in the middle if the middle riders can point to a world championships as being acceptable.
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Equi

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How can you stop the lower level crap if stuff like that is shown all around the world at the Olympics every 4 years as acceptable?

It has to start somewhere and it can't start in the middle if the middle riders can point to a world championships as being acceptable.
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I agree with this. I definitely noticed a difference in the dressage since 2012 and that was after many years of people saying how bad it looked, and then obviously the better pictures started winning. It takes time to filter down but it does happen, and I think future dressage will be even more relaxed both professionally and amateur.

I’d literally never heard of pentathlon before yesterday and I’m sure many others won’t have either. They will now!
 

Fred66

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MP makes sense as a natural progression from PC tetrathlon but I am not sure it works as an Olympic event. Compared to the heptathlon and triathlon the competitors don't seem to be of the same standard. Maybe having riders compete on their own horse would make the most sense. I think for an Olympic standard a 1.20m course isn't that a big an ask. But on a strange horse, that is then used twice there are way too many variables to make it a fair test.
ALL of these horses are tested at the level, all are capable of going clear. The issue is that some horses are forgiving and some are not. Even the two who caused issues for the German and Irish rider yesterday started out ok, they just got to the point where they said well if you aren’t riding me I’m not doing it with their first round riders which then gave knock on problems to the second round riders.
Whilst what we watched was definitely not pretty and if it was an ongoing reflection of how they are normally treated then I would consider it a welfare issue, but two rounds of being ridden poorly and unsympathetically is highly unlikely to cause any serious welfare issues.

The decathletes, heptathletes, triathletes are not dissimilar, they would be highly unlikely to qualify for the olympics in any of their individual sports. Men’s javelin for example the decathlete throws this year ranged from 50-75m with the actual javelin throwers being in the 90m range
 

teapot

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How can you stop the lower level crap if stuff like that is shown all around the world at the Olympics every 4 years as acceptable?
It has to start somewhere and it can't start in the middle if the middle riders can point to a world championships as being acceptable.
Me neither 😡

Perhaps some people are forgetting that there is big money changing hands for the "privilege" of showing this systematic abuse as entertainment?
I think the changes for the sport will help change that. I'm also not saying what we've watched is 'top notch' but I've seen worse week in week out and for far longer than one MP show jumping round.

Do the eventers jumping tired horses count as abuse? Does the round and subsequent fall of the Irish rider's horse count as abuse?

ALL of these horses are tested at the level, all are capable of going clear. The issue is that some horses are forgiving and some are not. Even the two who caused issues for the German and Irish rider yesterday started out ok, they just got to the point where they said well if you aren’t riding me I’m not doing it with their first round riders which then gave knock on problems to the second round riders.
Whilst what we watched was definitely not pretty and if it was an ongoing reflection of how they are normally treated then I would consider it a welfare issue, but two rounds of being ridden poorly and unsympathetically is highly unlikely to cause any serious welfare issues.

The decathletes, heptathletes, triathletes are not dissimilar, they would be highly unlikely to qualify for the olympics in any of their individual sports. Men’s javelin for example the decathlete throws this year ranged from 50-75m with the actual javelin throwers being in the 90m range
Agree with this.
 

milliepops

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I think the changes for the sport will help change that. I'm also not saying what we've watched is 'top notch' but I've seen worse week in week out and for far longer than one MP show jumping round.

Do the eventers jumping tired horses count as abuse? Does the round and subsequent fall of the Irish rider's horse count as abuse?



Agree with this.
yeah me too. plus i don't buy that the middle riders can't lead improvements because of a particular, fairly niche, thing going on elsewhere. that's a massive cop out. All of us need to get our houses in order. it's too easy to point at other people cocking up and cast a blind eye over the stuff happening in your own backyard.
 

ycbm

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The issue is that some horses are forgiving and some are not. .......
Whilst what we watched was definitely not pretty and if it was an ongoing reflection of how they are normally treated then I would consider it a welfare issue, but two rounds of being ridden poorly and unsympathetically is highly unlikely to cause any serious welfare

I think it's a hidden unacceptable abuse of the forgiving ones and a visibly disgusting abuse of the unforgiving ones. Why the owners allow it is beyond me. Is it for 5 minutes of fame of saying they own an Olympic horse?

If we want the riding of horses to be banned altogether in future, then excusing the poor treatment of horses for "world class" sport and human entertainment, on the basis that it's temporary and won't cause lasting harm, is imo an effective way to go about making that happen.
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ycbm

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yeah me too. plus i don't buy that the middle riders can't lead improvements because of a particular, fairly niche, thing going on elsewhere. that's a massive cop out. All of us need to get our houses in order. it's too easy to point at other people cocking up and cast a blind eye over the stuff happening in your own backyard.

Nobody is saying that middle riders can't, shouldn't or don't lead by example.

But people who are abusing their own horses, imo, aren't likely to stop if they see stuff like that as acceptable at the Olympics, and personally I would feel unable to challenge them directly if this is seen on a world stage as acceptable.
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HashRouge

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If we want the riding of horses to be banned altogether in future, then excusing the poor treatment of horses for "world class" sport and human entertainment, on the basis that it's temporary and won't cause lasting harm, is imo an effective way to go about making that happen.
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This is the key point, I think. If we want equestrian events to remain in the Olympics, they have got to be whiter than white. This has been a tricky games tbh - some very tired horses in the XC, Jet Set being PTS, falls in the SJ, that horrible nosebleed, and then some shocking riding in the modern pentathlon. For many people, this is the only time they will see horses competing and we absolutely have to show them that horse welfare is the most important thing.
 

milliepops

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Nobody is saying that middle riders can't, shouldn't or don't lead by example.

But people who are abusing their own horses, imo, aren't likely to stop if they see stuff like that as acceptable at the Olympics, and personally I would feel unable to challenge them directly if this is seen on a world stage as acceptable.
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i feel unable to challenge them just because so many people seem to think it's fine to just buy a horse and then ride it poorly, treat it unfairly, talk about how it's taking the p or being a tw*t because it won't let them catch it etc, the whole attitude towards horses at many levels is toxic. I honestly don't think having MP as an olympic sport is the problem for 99% of horses
 

tristar

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i have not watched much of it, ever cause its so crap.

but caught a glimpse of that woman whose horse was going backwards with its head up who ended up crying, and really thought if that was me i`d have jumped off, that horse was clearly telling her politely to please get off

where are the ringside stewards etc in this, and indeed the owners of the horses

it can`t be fair to either horse or rider who do not know each other, and maybe its similar with jockeys riding several horses a day at meetings, 2 yrs olds barely half grown
 

milliepops

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just the whole "it's supposed to be fun" kind of attitude around horses does my head in, it's not supposed to be fun it's supposed to be *fair* IMO, and sometimes that means recognising that you or your horse aren't competent at something, and going away and putting in the hours to improve. but if you say that you're taken to be raining on someone's parade.
 

milliepops

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how did the horse that was punched get on in the mens , i didnt watch any of the mens as i couldnt finish watching the womens as i hated it
as TP says he was not in the draw for the men's jumping.

some of the men also used reserve horses if the first round had gone badly.
 

ycbm

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i feel unable to challenge them just because so many people seem to think it's fine to just buy a horse and then ride it poorly, treat it unfairly, talk about how it's taking the p or being a tw*t because it won't let them catch it etc, the whole attitude towards horses at many levels is toxic. I honestly don't think having MP as an olympic sport is the problem for 99% of horses
Neither do I but knowing your feelings about our right to use horses for our pleasure, I'm a wee bit baffled by your apparent defence of this at world level. 2 wrongs never made right, and for me a wrong sanctioned by world level organisation and shown to millions as acceptable is many times the wrong of anything I see done locally.
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wispagold

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ALL of these horses are tested at the level, all are capable of going clear. The issue is that some horses are forgiving and some are not. Even the two who caused issues for the German and Irish rider yesterday started out ok, they just got to the point where they said well if you aren’t riding me I’m not doing it with their first round riders which then gave knock on problems to the second round riders.
Whilst what we watched was definitely not pretty and if it was an ongoing reflection of how they are normally treated then I would consider it a welfare issue, but two rounds of being ridden poorly and unsympathetically is highly unlikely to cause any serious welfare issues.

The decathletes, heptathletes, triathletes are not dissimilar, they would be highly unlikely to qualify for the olympics in any of their individual sports. Men’s javelin for example the decathlete throws this year ranged from 50-75m with the actual javelin throwers being in the 90m range
I am not disagreeing with you. Yes, the horses are capable but I don't think it is a fair ask for them to jump round a 1.20m course with a strange rider after only a 20min introduction. However a 1.20m course on a known horse that you have a partnership with and that you have been able to train with should not be too big an ask for an Olympic standard test, surely?? This is meant to be the very top level of the sport.

Of course the hep, Dec and tri athletes don't perform each aspect of their event to the standard of those athletes that focus solely on one event... I wouldn't expect them to. But they often not far off. KJT could compete in high jump when jumping her best and Jess Ennis could do 110m hurdles.
 

milliepops

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Neither do I but knowing your feelings about our right to use horses for our pleasure, I'm a wee bit baffled by your apparent defence of this at world level. 2 wrongs never made right, and for me a wrong sanctioned by world level organisation and shown to millions as acceptable is many times the wrong of anything I see done locally.
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I'm not defending it, if you look back at my posts on this thread i've consistently said the riding needs to improve if it's to stay (I do think that is possible as there have been multiple rounds that were a very good standard ). and I think it should come under FEI rules because I have a *higher* degree of faith in their ability to do consistent stewarding even if there are issues remaining.

I just think it's tricky ground, to say that those people are too rubbish, but naturally we are all perfectly fine horsepeople with no issues worth examining.
 

ycbm

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I just think it's tricky ground, to say that those people are too rubbish, but naturally we are all perfectly fine horsepeople with no issues worth examining.

Nobody has said that, have they? They haven't even said these riders shouldn't be riding. All anyone is saying is that this shouldn't any longer be an acceptable part of organised sport at world level.
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Oka

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The German coach has been dismissed and sent home. You would hope that that in itself will send a message, and given the backlash I hope there is a closer investigation into this entire practice. I've only just noticed that the poor horse in question is in a gag, with his mouth strapped shut. The riders all seem to wear spurs, which given the kicking going on.... why are the welfare rules not enforced in this event like they are in the rest of the equestrian events? To display this utter parody in front of the world and call it sport. Must admit it's taken the joy out of watching the Olympics a bit for me. In any other event the German rider would have been asked to leave the field, and yes, ring stewards should have been involved. There are no excuses for what we saw, literally none.
 

milliepops

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Nobody has said that, have they? They haven't even said these riders shouldn't be riding. All anyone is saying is that this shouldn't any longer be an acceptable part of organised sport at world level.
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Hmmmmm but the reason for that being insufficient skill for the task at hand having an impact on horse welfare?
My point is, if I start to think about that, i fall off the edge of the rabbit hole and think, well, why are those few horses a special case compared to the gazillions in private homes that no one watches on TV.
 
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