Tokyo Pentathlon SJ

Rowreach

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 May 2007
Messages
14,505
Location
Northern Ireland
fwiw I have seen worse riding at local shows than at the olympics, these horses and ponies get ridden appallingly day in and day out, often badly shod in poorly fitting tack and often obese (rider and mount), frequently lame as well. I can't help thinking that we are picking the wrong target?
It's not about picking the wrong target, it's about addressing something that a lot of people worldwide are talking about this weekend, and which to my mind should not happen in any context, but in this context the Olympic Games, again.

Which things are we all going to ignore and let slide because there are worse things apparently going on at the same time (which we should be addressing as well)? Why not take advantage of the worldwide coverage this has got, and use it to educate, review, change something that has been going on for decades but is only really seen once every four years? Why are so many people on this thread, horse people no less, defending MP because it has always had the riding element in it, instead of accepting that change is needed?

I'm still stunned at the suggestion that if you ride badly in MP you get a bad score, and that that is somehow ok :confused:
 

tristar

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 August 2010
Messages
5,643
that its a kind of dirty trick across a horse is obvious to all

the whole thing is a world wide showcase, it has reached far more people than a local show, kids on ponies are better than some of those riders, they have shown themselves to be incompetent, exploitative, and proved they should be removed from the games by the very fact they seem oblivious to what viewers are seeing and how they are reacting and that they have cut their own throats

its funny how things come to the end of the road
 

milliepops

Wears headscarf aggressively
Joined
26 July 2008
Messages
27,163
I hadn't taken it to mean that it was all groovy if you rode badly and just got a bad score, my feeling was that was a lever to use to drive an improvement in the riding skill. If your ride score was so bad that you were always at the bottom of the heap, you'd either give up, or improve?
 

fetlock

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 August 2017
Messages
628
i am amazed that a horse would have a gag on with a tight noseband and to be ridden by what looks like a novice rider. if he has been jabbed in the mouth a few times its not surprising he was running backwards. i wouldnt ride any horse in a gag with only one rein and i am pretty competent and have a secure seat....i would imagine this is what the owner rides him in which begs the question, if he has to have such a severe bit, is he suitable to be used in this competition. i think they could replace this with prix caprilli, i bet most of you will never have competed in that.:) its a walk,trot canter test with 2 small cavaletties to jump. it needs a bit of skill and wouldnt be so exciting for the general public to watch but better for the horses.... i looked at the list re what was allowed and most of them allowed everything and i think only one of them said no to spurs, so if that is how the owners think, what hope is there?
Is Prix Caprilli not a thing anymore? A shame if so. It was always included at RC area trials and the RC championships back in the day.

Equitation jumping was another one. Maybe they could consider that one to raise standards. Slightly more interesting to watch than the Prix Caprilli.
 

milliepops

Wears headscarf aggressively
Joined
26 July 2008
Messages
27,163
Genuine question - why is show jumping part of MP anyway? What does it show? I don’t doubt that they are very fit, accomplished athletes but surely something other than show jumping a strange horse could be found to test their skills.
From wiki
As the events of the ancient pentathlon were modeled after the skills of the ideal soldier to defend a fortification of that time, Coubertin created the contest to simulate the experience of a 19th-century cavalry soldier behind enemy lines: he must ride an unfamiliar horse, fight enemies with pistol and sword, swim, and run to return to his own soldiers.
 

Rowreach

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 May 2007
Messages
14,505
Location
Northern Ireland
I hadn't taken it to mean that it was all groovy if you rode badly and just got a bad score, my feeling was that was a lever to use to drive an improvement in the riding skill. If your ride score was so bad that you were always at the bottom of the heap, you'd either give up, or improve?
Well no it wasn't you that said that.

I think for me it's that the riding has always been utter cr*p, everyone knows it is, the horses have always suffered because of it, and yet the sport has done nothing to make any improvements for itself, and therefore this sort of adverse publicity should be rammed down their throats to make them sort themselves out because they had their chances and they haven't taken them.
 

teapot

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 December 2005
Messages
31,828
Well no it wasn't you that said that.

I think for me it's that the riding has always been utter cr*p, everyone knows it is, the horses have always suffered because of it, and yet the sport has done nothing to make any improvements for itself, and therefore this sort of adverse publicity should be rammed down their throats to make them sort themselves out because they had their chances and they haven't taken them.
I think that given the likes of Ingrid Klimke and Isabella Werth have spoken out, it may be different this time. It was bad at London and Rio, why did it not happen then? Or does it take an established equestrian nation to behave badly for things to change?
 

Amymay

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 July 2004
Messages
59,782
Location
South
I think that given the likes of Ingrid Klimke and Isabella Werth have spoken out, it may be different this time. It was bad at London and Rio, why did it not happen then? Or does it take an established equestrian nation to behave badly for things to change?
Where have they commented?
 

Rowreach

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 May 2007
Messages
14,505
Location
Northern Ireland
I think that given the likes of Ingrid Klimke and Isabella Werth have spoken out, it may be different this time. It was bad at London and Rio, why did it not happen then? Or does it take an established equestrian nation to behave badly for things to change?
Thats a very good question.
 

tristar

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 August 2010
Messages
5,643
I think that given the likes of Ingrid Klimke and Isabella Werth have spoken out, it may be different this time. It was bad at London and Rio, why did it not happen then? Or does it take an established equestrian nation to behave badly for things to change?

the time is right for change

the ripe fruit falls off the tree
 

criso

Well-Known Member
Joined
18 September 2008
Messages
8,889
Location
London but horse is in Herts
The video is being shared on social media and non horsey people are not making the distinction between MP and other equestrian events. What they are seeing is an Olympic athlete hitting a horse. As far as they are concerned, this is a top athlete. Being in the Olympics confers that legitimacy. They are not commenting and asking questions about the fornat of mp, they are asking why are horses allowed to be used in sport at all.
 

Orangehorse

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 November 2005
Messages
12,182
Wasn't there an article in H & H leading up to the London Olympics about selecting the horses for the pentathlon?

I was musing on this because they obviously need a reasonable horse, one that can jump a decent set of show jumps, so who is going to loan their nice horse to be ridden by a complete unknown? Wouldn't a horse like this be usually ridden by their owner at a show and be kept for a competition. So that leaves riding school horses really.
 

MyBoyChe

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 April 2008
Messages
4,420
Location
N. Bucks
Aside from the fact that it is such an unfair and downright stupid thing to do to a horse, its actually, as we all know, potentially quite dangerous riding horses full stop!! I know all sport carries risk but I think they are less likely to suffer a life changing injury with the other 4 aspects to MP than riding a horse they dont know over a course of fences with not much practise. I think its more by luck than judgement that noone got hurt and for the life of me I dont understand why its OK for them to continue after a fall, all the other equestrian events state you cant continue!! How often do they ride in training and how often are they tested to see whether they actually can ride to a decent standard. I think if they are going to keep riding in, they should either do a basic walk, trot and canter dressage test or a Trec style event, no jumping allowed
 

teapot

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 December 2005
Messages
31,828
No idea what Werth’s comments are as can’t read German ☹️
Google translate :)

Wasn't there an article in H & H leading up to the London Olympics about selecting the horses for the pentathlon?

I was musing on this because they obviously need a reasonable horse, one that can jump a decent set of show jumps, so who is going to loan their nice horse to be ridden by a complete unknown? Wouldn't a horse like this be usually ridden by their owner at a show and be kept for a competition. So that leaves riding school horses really.
For London, it primarily was private owners and a lot of selection trials. I know of someone who did and she's locally well known on the sj and pc circuits. Not many riding schools left with horses capable of jumping 1m20, nor would they be able to spare the horsepower! Think for Rio, a fair few were provided by the military or did I make that up?

As said previously Tokyo horses were private owners or saddle clubs in the area, some jumping a lot bigger than 1m20.
 
Last edited:

Rowreach

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 May 2007
Messages
14,505
Location
Northern Ireland
No idea what Werth’s comments are as can’t read German ☹️

“Isabell Werth, the most successful rider in the world, clearly criticizes the use of horses in modern pentathlon.

“It has nothing to do with equestrian sport as we practice and know it,” said the German dressage rider on Friday. “The whole system has to be changed.””
 

TheMule

Well-Known Member
Joined
14 October 2009
Messages
4,522
Wasn't there an article in H & H leading up to the London Olympics about selecting the horses for the pentathlon?

I was musing on this because they obviously need a reasonable horse, one that can jump a decent set of show jumps, so who is going to loan their nice horse to be ridden by a complete unknown? Wouldn't a horse like this be usually ridden by their owner at a show and be kept for a competition. So that leaves riding school horses really.
It is a business to train and own MP horses- Jabeena, the GB team coach, owns most of the GB ones but others are drafted in too. Suspect Japan did the same- their riders will train on some specific MP horses
 

Amymay

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 July 2004
Messages
59,782
Location
South
“Isabell Werth, the most successful rider in the world, clearly criticizes the use of horses in modern pentathlon.

“It has nothing to do with equestrian sport as we practice and know it,” said the German dressage rider on Friday. “The whole system has to be changed.””
Thanks xxx
 

paddy555

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 December 2010
Messages
9,381
“Coubertin created the contest to simulate the experience of a 19th-century cavalry soldier behind enemy lines: he must ride an unfamiliar horse, “

I wasn't aware there was a course of show jumps behind most enemy lines and it doesn't say anywhere he has to be able to take said horse show jumping. .

If he was riding as a soldier then a 25 mile ride would be more appropriate. There used to be competitive trail rides, 7/8 mph. This would be a much better test on a more commonplace horse the pentathlete would be more easily able to cope with. I expect the war horse would be expected to be able to carry on after it's ride (could be off to another battle) so the test would also be to bring the horse home in a condition fit to continue. Could have trec style obstacles along the way, even small cross country type jumps.
 

wispagold

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 October 2008
Messages
1,065
I wasn't aware there was a course of show jumps behind most enemy lines and it doesn't say anywhere he has to be able to take said horse show jumping. .

If he was riding as a soldier then a 25 mile ride would be more appropriate. There used to be competitive trail rides, 7/8 mph. This would be a much better test on a more commonplace horse the pentathlete would be more easily able to cope with. I expect the war horse would be expected to be able to carry on after it's ride (could be off to another battle) so the test would also be to bring the horse home in a condition fit to continue. Could have trec style obstacles along the way, even small cross country type jumps.
I actually really like this idea. Maybe with an orienteering aspect to it so that they have to map read and navigate.
 

teapot

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 December 2005
Messages
31,828
I wasn't aware there was a course of show jumps behind most enemy lines and it doesn't say anywhere he has to be able to take said horse show jumping. .

If he was riding as a soldier then a 25 mile ride would be more appropriate. There used to be competitive trail rides, 7/8 mph. This would be a much better test on a more commonplace horse the pentathlete would be more easily able to cope with. I expect the war horse would be expected to be able to carry on after it's ride (could be off to another battle) so the test would also be to bring the horse home in a condition fit to continue.
and that's how three day eventing was born ;)
 

The Fuzzy Furry

Resident irriot
Joined
24 November 2010
Messages
25,022
Location
The yard, home or coal face.....
I wasn't aware there was a course of show jumps behind most enemy lines and it doesn't say anywhere he has to be able to take said horse show jumping. .

If he was riding as a soldier then a 25 mile ride would be more appropriate. There used to be competitive trail rides, 7/8 mph. This would be a much better test on a more commonplace horse the pentathlete would be more easily able to cope with. I expect the war horse would be expected to be able to carry on after it's ride (could be off to another battle) so the test would also be to bring the horse home in a condition fit to continue. Could have trec style obstacles along the way, even small cross country type jumps.
They would be better off doing the roads, tracks and hazards round the edge of the xc course, Inc a timed section say in trot....
 
Top