tongue choking and BD legal bit 'guaranteed' to work

wkiwi

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Ok here goes, please don't take initial comments the wrong way but i don't want a list of dozens of bits :)
-please don't post unless you know your suggested bit has been used on more than one horse with dorsal displacement of the soft palate.
-Also please skip all the posts about physios/vets/dentists etc. as not needed, and not prepared to go down the surgical options. I know what caused her to start (a ****wit rider that should never have bought her) and she is 90% re-schooled.

I am after recommendations for a BD legal bit that is 'highly likely' to prevent/reduce DDSP in horses (i.e. has been proven in numerous horses) and not one that just relieves tongue pressure. I know of a reliable non-BD bit but not a BD legal one.

Horse does not get tongue over bit, does not wear a restricting noseband (only a loose cavesson), and is not a typical tongue swallower. It is not related to rein contact pressure (She can choke with no contact on a long rein cantering round the paddock, but doesn't with a contact in collected canter in the arena). Can also choke in walk and trot on loose rein.

I also need to understand the technical logic behind the bit and how it will specifically help. The reason i don't want lots of suggestions is that the horse can panic with something she doesn't like (due to afore-mentioned ****wit rider tying her head down :( :( :( ). So i am REALLY trying to narrow it down to trying only 1-2 bits to try and not a long list of those that relieve tongue pressure or have ports.

Anyone in the racing game that has had success with a suitable bit in TBs?

NB have emailed some of the bit lenders/advice companies but still waiting some replies.

Many thanks for reading :)
 

ihatework

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I can’t imagine anyone will be able to offer you a guaranteed BD legal bit for such a physical based issue. In racing they would presumably just tie the tongue.

But if you find one please let me know, you never know when it might come in handy!
 

wkiwi

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I can’t imagine anyone will be able to offer you a guaranteed BD legal bit for such a physical based issue.

But if you find one please let me know, you never know when it might come in handy!
lol - the 'guaranteed' was in emphasis because i know that no-one can guarantee anything. I just want to try one that has been used in more than one horse rather than "I put mine in an X and it worked fine". Seen too many posts where there ends up with dozens and dozens of different suggestions (some contradicting) and was hoping to limit the input. I would rather have no suggestions than too many to research. But thanks for replying anyway.

PS it is not physical it is psychological in her case - atypical.
 

ihatework

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In which case there is no answer to your post, surely you know that.
If it’s psychological it’s in her head!! There isn’t a bit that acts as a psychiatrist.
It will be a case of trying X, Y & Z.
But mostly it will be endless time and patience
 

wkiwi

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In which case there is no answer to your post, surely you know that.
If it’s psychological it’s in her head!! There isn’t a bit that acts as a psychiatrist.
It will be a case of trying X, Y & Z.
But mostly it will be endless time and patience
Thanks for your input.
She is already having the endless time and patience: I haven't gone into full detail in the post as that would take pages. This isn't a solution for a quick fix (as she has gone from near unrideable to getting over 70% in dressage tests) but for another reason which i haven't gone into (though happy to discuss via pm if you want the long long version).

And yes the right type of bit can help (veterinary research articles available online via google) as can other types of tack etc. for other different psychological problems.
Cheers - off to bed now.
 

eggs

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Was going to suggest speaking to a bit fitting expert but see that Dubsie has beaten me to it.
 

wkiwi

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Was going to suggest speaking to a bit fitting expert but see that Dubsie has beaten me to it.
Thanks. Have contacted a few and still waiting for replies. The WTP seems to have the most logic behind it (transitioning between the extended to the normal plate, neither dressage legal). I just found out this morning that they have applied to the FEI for the normal plate and are expecting it to be approved soon.
So at the moment it is top of my list unless someone comes up with something more logical. :)
 

wkiwi

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I know you don't want too many suggestions to try but have you tried her in a double bridle? Often the two bits gives the horse more to think about and can settle fussy horses. It particularly seems to work well for Iberian and Arab type horses.
Thanks for the idea, a friend of mine is using that method for a new horse of hers at the moment. Mine is not at all fussy in the mouth and will maintain a light consistent contact. Also she isn't at elementary yet and would ideally like something i can warm her up in at venues (sounds wierd, but she is likely to choke in the warm up but not in the test for various reasons). :)
 

DabDab

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I'm confused, does the horse actually have dorsal displacement or is it just doing something particularly peculiar with its tongue?
 

Goldenstar

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Have you tried a thick unjointed rubber snaffle ?
Different I know but that’s what I found was the start point with a tongue over the bit horse I had .
 

w1bbler

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You say you've messaged bit hire places & waiting for reply. I would suggest you actually pick up the phone & talk to one, for a complex issue like you are suggesting they need to have a conversation with you, not a few messages. Or as someone else said get someone out.
 

wkiwi

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You say you've messaged bit hire places & waiting for reply. I would suggest you actually pick up the phone & talk to one, for a complex issue like you are suggesting they need to have a conversation with you, not a few messages. Or as someone else said get someone out.
I didn't say I'd "messaged bit hire places". It is an assumption that i have only messaged people, only contacted bit hire places, and that the replies i am waiting for are not people ringing me back from different time zones. But thank you for taking time to read my message and giving your input. Have a great day.
 

wkiwi

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Have you tried a thick unjointed rubber snaffle ?
Different I know but that’s what I found was the start point with a tongue over the bit horse I had .
Thanks for the suggestion. Started off with different snaffles (though not rubber) - she does prefer a thinner bit but a friend has a rubber snaffle i could try so will give it a go. She doesn't actually put her tongue over the bit though and might not like it being thicker but maybe the rubber will give her confidence so it does have a logic behind it. Sometimes the simplest ideas are the best and cheapest - lol.
 

wkiwi

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I'm confused, does the horse actually have dorsal displacement or is it just doing something particularly peculiar with its tongue?
The drawing back of the tongue can result in dorsal displacement of the soft palate, which is often called tongue swallowing (even though they don't actually swallow the tongue. It essentially results in cutting off the air supply (due to various anatomical factors) and the horse 'chokes', makes a gurgling noise and can't breath. As soon as they swallow/cough everything returns to the normal position and air flow is normal.
There are numerous factors involved, so variations occur in different horses, and it is still being researched. It is most common in racehorses at high speed when they pull up mid race (Can be a more permanent version too).
 

wkiwi

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Mate, your tone is so aggressive. These people are trying to help. Please remember that.
Thank you for reading all the posts. Have had some useful suggestions made, some of which aren't relevant to my horse and some of which are worth trying or following up on. Have you had any luck with a particular bit in a similar case?
 

DabDab

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The drawing back of the tongue can result in dorsal displacement of the soft palate, which is often called tongue swallowing (even though they don't actually swallow the tongue. It essentially results in cutting off the air supply (due to various anatomical factors) and the horse 'chokes', makes a gurgling noise and can't breath. As soon as they swallow/cough everything returns to the normal position and air flow is normal.
There are numerous factors involved, so variations occur in different horses, and it is still being researched. It is most common in racehorses at high speed when they pull up mid race (Can be a more permanent version too).
Yes, am aware of that, but you then said that it's psychological rather than physiological, so I was imagining a horse who has an emotional tick with its tongue and that was the only thing causing a breathing difficulty...?

I asked because it might affect options/experience offered, since your issue seems quite niche.

But you're being so abrupt I'm not really bothered anymore.
 

9tails

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Thank you for reading all the posts. Have had some useful suggestions made, some of which aren't relevant to my horse and some of which are worth trying or following up on. Have you had any luck with a particular bit in a similar case?
No, my horse hasn't been ruined by a *******wit.
 

wkiwi

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Yes, am aware of that, but you then said that it's psychological rather than physiological, so I was imagining a horse who has an emotional tick with its tongue and that was the only thing causing a breathing difficulty...?

I asked because it might affect options/experience offered, since your issue seems quite niche.

But you're being so abrupt I'm not really bothered anymore.
Never mind, have a great day.
 

Carrottom

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My first thought was also the thick rubber straight bar snaffle. Only anecdotal evidence that it was successful for a point to pointer. It was some time ago so I don't remember any details, only that a tongue tie wasn't an option.
 

Goldenstar

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Is it only a problem in the warm up ? I assume you have tried sticky mints and feeding the horses polo throughout the warm up .
 

ihatework

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But you're being so abrupt I'm not really bothered anymore.
Me either.
Shame really as I’ve dealt with a couple of horses that I might have been willing to take time out of my day and share experience of.

OP, thanks for reading. Have a nice day.
 

wkiwi

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My first thought was also the thick rubber straight bar snaffle. Only anecdotal evidence that it was successful for a point to pointer. It was some time ago so I don't remember any details, only that a tongue tie wasn't an option.
Thanks, it is a definite possibility (and so simple and cheap too - lol). I have previously been recommended tongue ties with transition to none, but of course they can cause so much damage, but the racing world does have other suggestions that might help :)
 

wkiwi

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Is it only a problem in the warm up ? I assume you have tried sticky mints and feeding the horses polo throughout the warm up .
No unfortunately, that was just an example and it is inconsistent. She used to love polos as a treat though but for some reason has gone off them lately (all the horses did) so wondering if they changed the formula. I can't tell the difference.
 

wkiwi

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Me either.
Shame really as I’ve dealt with a couple of horses that I might have been willing to take time out of my day and share experience of.

OP, thanks for reading. Have a nice day.
Oh well, it takes all types to raise a village.
 

Goldenstar

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Have you tried gumbits ,honey on the bit I certainly would try a thick rubber snaffle that was where I started with my tongue over the bit horse he went from persistently going with the tongue over despite arriving having been worked the tightest flash’s you can imagine and being the awful breather to being completely happy .
However and I know you don’t want veterinary advice but that horse who had passed a five stage vetting had a lot of pain .
Despite having three equine vets say he has no back pain I egged on by the Physio took a punt and had his back xrayed he had terrible advanced kissing spines and had a mayor surgery .
If you have not considered hydroid problems you must must do so issues with hydroid and tongue issues go hand in hand .
Vets are just getting a better understanding of this so you need to do some research and find the right vet .
It’s extemely common for horses with physical issues only to react when under stress unless you want to waste a lot of time and that not considering the unfairness to the horse don’t ever forget that .
 

wkiwi

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Have you tried gumbits ,honey on the bit I certainly would try a thick rubber snaffle that was where I started with my tongue over the bit horse he went from persistently going with the tongue over despite arriving having been worked the tightest flash’s you can imagine and being the awful breather to being completely happy .
However and I know you don’t want veterinary advice but that horse who had passed a five stage vetting had a lot of pain .
Despite having three equine vets say he has no back pain I egged on by the Physio took a punt and had his back xrayed he had terrible advanced kissing spines and had a mayor surgery .
If you have not considered hydroid problems you must must do so issues with hydroid and tongue issues go hand in hand .
Vets are just getting a better understanding of this so you need to do some research and find the right vet .
It’s extemely common for horses with physical issues only to react when under stress unless you want to waste a lot of time and that not considering the unfairness to the horse don’t ever forget that .
Thanks for your input. These areas have already been covered and it is now only the horses anticipation of an issue triggered by specific sets of conditions (fortunately now rare and getting rarer) that still remain (though of course for her the memory will never completely disappear sadly). I haven't gone into full detail of everything in the post as was keeping it to the minimum to avoid having a discussion on every aspect of every stage, my health issues (multiple) which affect the current circumstances, and a situation that i am trying to help her overcome mentally so that she can be more future proofed in the event of my not being able to keep her for the rest of her life.
I really appreciate your concern for her welfare and please rest assured that the horse's physical and mental health is always optimised by myself and her connections.
 
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