Too little contact - how big of a fault?

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Supanova

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In November I bought a new 3 year old (now 4!) that had been backed 12 weeks. This is my first time bringing on a horse that young as all my previous ones were 5 or above. I have therefore been reading loads of books to try to make sure i do the right things.

One of the best books i have got is Basic Training of the Young Horse by Reimer & Ingrid Klimke. In this they advocate riding young horses on as long a rein as possible to ensure that they can stretch their neck and can go in their natural frame rather than too short of a frame. In my riding so far I have therefore been trying to not have too short a rein and a very soft contact.

However, i have also been reading Pippa Funnell's book which says that it is important to have a contact and not too long a rein. She also says that its a surprisingly common fault for riders to ride with too little contact. Last night i therefore tried to ride my horse with a bit more contact and she went much better!

Now admittedly my interpretation of what Reimer and Ingrid are trying to say is probably not quite right as they obviously don't mean to drop the contact, but i thought it was very interesting how my horse reacted better to a much more assertive contact than i had been trying to use before. I was just musing and was wondering what other people's views were on too little contact and how big of a fault that actually is in a rider?
 
I have gone through this agony recently - I was told not to pick up the contact until the horse was truly forwards and off your leg. This takes longer than you think! Once the horse is truly off the leg you can begin to pick up the contact as the horse will be truly working from behind and into the contact.

One of my first lessons on this horse with a GP dressage rider consisted of me just riding forwards and straight and not touching the mouth. It was not until about 2 months later that we started asking for a contact and it has come very quickly and in a relaxed manner. The contact is now nearly in place within walk and trot but canter is still hit and miss so I am back to not touching the mouth apart from to help re-balance and rely on the neck strap for slowing within the pace.

By contact I mean that you have a secure line from the horses hind leg through into the mouth. It feels elastic and flexible at the end of the rein. When not riding into a contact the reins are still held together but its incredibly soft/reins very relaxed and I basically do not use my hands for anything and rely on my voice, neck strap and seat.
 
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Thats very interesting LEC! So would you say you are an advocate on riding youngsters with no contact then as per the Klimke's?! My worry is that my horse is feeling insecure like i am not instructing her even though i have my leg on etc. When i tried her before i bought her I was riding round with quite a soft loose rein and the dealer (who is very experienced and had started her very well) also said to me "don't be afraid to pick up the contact, horses like a leader"! It is very confusing!
 
I've had this issue with Ellie, who is naturally built to go rather like a giraffe. I've had to really concentrate to prevent myself from trying to make it look nice, and so we have been gaily going around with her nose stuck out and a very light or no contact for months and months, just concentrating on forwards, relaxation, rhythm, softness, straightness, listening to my legs and seat and shoulders, a bit of lateral work, and that's it. FINALLY it is paying off, she softens and comes to the contact on her own, lightly and softly, and it feels WONDERFUL.
i was thinking about it while schooling the other day and if you've ever done any sailing, you'll know what i mean: it felt like being at the rudder of a boat, with the horse's nose as the prow out up in front, and the more power you have (from sails or engine) the more the nose goes UP, and you just leave it up and out there until the back is soft enough, swinging through, and then the horse seeks the hand/contact in a really nice way and you get your outline.
btw, all due respect to Pippa, who is amazing, but I rate Reiner and Ingrid Klimke hugely. I think Ingrid is the best female rider in the world.
 
I don't think Lec is saying NO contact I think she is saying a light contact. which is still often termed long loose rein. you should ALWAYS have a contact even if it is just a light one.

The idea of a light contact is so that you are not in anyway impeding the horses forward movement and they learn to balance themselves.

many horses prefer a light contact to 'go into' rather than no contact

If you are sure the feel is right, go with what your horse is telling you he prefers. Some young horses do like a tiny bit more contact than others without using you for balance. You have to know the difference which is often difficult, even a lot of instructors don't appreciate this unless they have bought on numerous young horses
 
Kerilli - your analogy makes lots of sense and i have never been sailing! Very interesting to hear that you rode Ellie for months like this and then she came into a nice contact so it was worth persisting.

Soulful - thank you. I do think my mare is telling me that she likes a bit more contact (it is not strong at all just slightly more than i had been doing before) as last night she went really well and it felt to me like she was working correctly.
 
soulfull said:
I don't think Lec is saying NO contact I think she is saying a light contact. which is still often termed long loose rein. you should ALWAYS have a contact even if it is just a light one.
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hmmm, i disagree actually, i don't think it's a bad thing for a horse to learn to go along straight and happily and in rhythm in total self-carriage with no contact at all, and then accept a light contact later. maybe i'm weird. ;) ;)

the point the OP made originally, that the Klimkes "advocate riding young horses on as long a rein as possible to ensure that they can stretch their neck and can go in their natural frame rather than too short of a frame" is what i was harking back to. with some horses, even a light contact can shorten up their frame initially, so sending them on and showing them they can balance and swing in a totally open frame is the way i go...
very ready to be corrected by those with more experience though, obv!
 
Kerilli - I agree with you. It does seem that Ingrid is saying to ride with no contact - it is really impossible to have a long rein on a young horse and have a contact as this would only happen if they were working really correctly over their back and stretching down from the outset. I can't have a long rein on a horse that has its head in the air and still have a contact!!
 
:DThis is really interesting - I have been working on this myself, my mare is now classed as a 5 year old, but after being broken as a 3 year old she had a foal and I've only been back on her back for ab out 4 weeks now. During her 'maternity' leave I spent a lot of time reading and investigating whats best for her (previously had been taught to ride young horses in something called a contact strap - like a harbridge), and to soften them with wide hands and lots of bending/flexing.
Since I've been back on I've not used a contact strap or anything else, but been letting her go forward in an open frame - loose contact, trying to concentrate on forwards and straight. I was starting to get worried as when I broke her in she wanted to work over her back into an outline and seemed happy there - now she went with her nose in the air! But I must say only after 3 weeks of training she is already giving a lovely contact on one rein, although dodgy still on the other rein! Its very tempting (after years) to fiddle and take a stronger contact, and I find myself automatically moving my inside hand up or down or wriggling - but stick with it - it works!:D
 
yes, absolutely, Supanova. any contact will be seen by some youngsters as 'brakes', and stop them from swinging forward, and once they've learnt to go in a sort of neat contained outline, however pretty and balanced and nice it might look, it's very difficult to show/teach them that they can really open up and flow forward. (i've done it the other way, and ended up with a horse who went a bit like a very pretty little clockwork toy, who got super marks consistently at Novice, won at Elementary, but could not go beyond it...) so, now i do it the other way. ;) ;)
 
I would agree with all of the above, I've really fought the temptation to ask for any kind of an outline/contact on my youngster. He has been very immature and downhill and also very stuffy through his shoulders. He is also suspicious and could be quite nappy given the chance.

After a year of letting him work on a very light contact, concentrating just on steering, forwardness and obedience, I have a transformed horse. He is bigger & stronger, he has some decent muscle in front of the wither and lovely free loose shoulders. When I ask him to soften & flex his jaw/poll, he is so through and in to the hand, he automatically now is able to round his back & elevate his shoulders & he takes such big loose strides that he treads on himself - but it is the most fantastic feeling.

I'm really pleased I've let him develop at his own speed, and really see how different he would have been had I asked for any kind of an outline as a four year old.
 
I personally always have a contact. By contact i mean i can always feel there mouth but im driving them forward into the hand never taking a pull just there or support if that makes sense, I never begin to ask them to soften until they are trually forward and straight in which case if i have a contact there they are usually already doing this themselves once the forward/straight is established. i think it i left some young ones with no contact on the reign they would completly freak out and they need the slight support IMO but each to there own different methods will suit different riders and horses.
 
Is your horse in front of the leg? Light contact and behind the leg is quite a tough one and if that's the case you need to make sure he responds to the leg before you do anything else. If he's in front of the leg then I wouldn't be too scared of picking up a contact and then asking him to lengthen his frame and especially his neck. If you can get a horse that's behind the contact to take it through and forwards so that he's working long and low you will be making a huge difference to his schooling.

Do you have regular lessons with anyone? A set of eyes on the ground can make all the difference.
 
siennamum said:
I would agree with all of the above, I've really fought the temptation to ask for any kind of an outline/contact on my youngster. He has been very immature and downhill and also very stuffy through his shoulders. He is also suspicious and could be quite nappy given the chance.

After a year of letting him work on a very light contact, concentrating just on steering, forwardness and obedience, I have a transformed horse. He is bigger & stronger, he has some decent muscle in front of the wither and lovely free loose shoulders. When I ask him to soften & flex his jaw/poll, he is so through and in to the hand, he automatically now is able to round his back & elevate his shoulders & he takes such big loose strides that he treads on himself - but it is the most fantastic feeling.

I'm really pleased I've let him develop at his own speed, and really see how different he would have been had I asked for any kind of an outline as a four year old.
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^^ this really! I actually asked unintentionally towards the end of last summer (we were in a group lesson on grass and he was being a complete idiot so I had to take a stronger contact than before) but having spent a lot of time prior to that merrily swinging along with him stargazing, it is so light and easy now to bring his head down and round his frame. He is still forward and off my leg, and is even balanced enough now for me to be able to think about adding activity to his hindleg movement etc - refining to that point took about 2 years on my older horse who I got as a 7 year old.
 
I think sometimes people misinterpret 'self carriage' and a 'light contact'...

To me, self carriage could mean: a horse that has found a natural head carriage that is of no detriment to its' balance and allows it to work fluidly and well.
or: a horse that totally ignores you and does/will not work into a contact.

Again, a light contact could mean: a horse that needs a light and steady rider to mouth contact.
or: a horse that hates any pressure on its' mouth so is incapable of being ridden into a firmer contact.

For me, there is nothing worse than getting on a horse, asking it work with you, and having *nothing* in your hands. It's like when you skid on ice in a car and you suddenly have nothing in your hands anymore.

Each horse is different and will work in a slightly different way, and riders all ride in a slightly different way. Ask Bruce to work in a totally loose rein? It will run off with you in trot and morph into a giraffe. Pick him up and push him into your hands, he works beautifully. Every situation with a horse should be considered differently according to rider and horse, not just relying upon another persons theory. xoxo
 
interesting thread. I dont know where my boy would fall in this category?!

he raced so a bit different to your average rising 5yo, when i first get on he can be very buzzy and leg needs to be very light and hand steady, once he starts to work you can start to move him around with your leg aids, but to start with he has a tendancy to drop behind the vertical and look pretty but not really working. I have started giving him a long rein when he relaxes to let him stick his nose to the ground which he does well now but to start with he used to just run off when given a long rein! very quickly!!

so i guess i am doing a mixture of working with little contact to get him pushing through and then working him in an outline. I find letting him trot on with no contact and his nose down gets him to lean on the bit more when i try to ride him with a contact. sorry no technical terms just trying to teach him that legs can move about and he doesnt need to gallop each time i use them and that rein aids arent just for running into and leaning on aka race style!!

im probably getting it all wrong but its interesting reading this as it relates to feel which IMO is hard to learn, difficult to explain and impossible to teach!
 
nikkimariet said:
For me, there is nothing worse than getting on a horse, asking it work with you, and having *nothing* in your hands.
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I totally agree with this comment :)



Regarding the post, training a youngster and training an older horse are going to be different when it comes to what 'type' of contact you have.

When I train a youngster the first thing I want it to do is go forward, be in front of my leg. You can't begin to ask for a correct shape/outline/contact until the the horse knows what to do.
I think though even when riding on a loose rein you should always have some sort of contact. If there were no contact and the horse were just ambling along, what is that teaching it? Even a youngster being taught to go forward needs something, I wouldn't just hold it at buckle end?

Most instructors I've had say that people are amazed at just how much contact/feel through the horses mouth/rein you should have. That doesn't mean being strong in the hand though but a horse must be taught how to go correctly through the contact and that must start by being in front and definitely not behind the leg.
In my opinion being in front of the leg and being on a loose rein with no contact defeats the object of training the horse to go correctly?
I warm up on a 'loose' rein but with a contact and reward good work at the end with a loose rein but still with a contact.
In a dressage test some movements say long rein, allowing the horse to stretch. This doesn't mean a loose rein with no contact, if it did I would be belting round the arena at warp speed :D
 
kez1001 said:
interesting thread. I dont know where my boy would fall in this category?!

he raced so a bit different to your average rising 5yo, when i first get on he can be very buzzy and leg needs to be very light and hand steady, once he starts to work you can start to move him around with your leg aids, but to start with he has a tendancy to drop behind the vertical and look pretty but not really working. I have started giving him a long rein when he relaxes to let him stick his nose to the ground which he does well now but to start with he used to just run off when given a long rein! very quickly!!

so i guess i am doing a mixture of working with little contact to get him pushing through and then working him in an outline. I find letting him trot on with no contact and his nose down gets him to lean on the bit more when i try to ride him with a contact. sorry no technical terms just trying to teach him that legs can move about and he doesn't need to gallop each time i use them and that rein aids aren't just for running into and leaning on aka race style!!
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We have one at the moment that raced. It takes a good 10 to 15 minutes of riding him forward on a loose rein before he can be ridden on a shorter rein (without thinking it's gallop time). He likes to stretch down too like your's, however he does use this to rush and to run on his forhand which is easier forhim than working correctly from behind. We let him do this for the warm up as it settles him, however we don't have him on a totally loose rein with no contact at all.

It's hard to explain on paper isn't it though, and I would ride the next horse differently than the last as they are all so different. :D
 
I guess the thing is that it's hard to define what is exactly meant by each person talking about a light contact/loose rein! I even mean slightly different things on my two horses! But on my youngster as that's what op was talking about, I would mean long-ish reins (certainly not buckle end) and really no 'pressure' on his mouth to lower his head. I guess we have all heard about the analogy of a handshake as the contact to the horses mouth? I'm going to describe it as with an older horse that I'm asking to work (and in fact now my youngster once he warms up) as being a decent handshake, not too firm but not too wimpy, but with him when he was more babyish, it would be like how you would hold a child's hand? Does that make sense? I wouldn't want to ride on the buckle in case of any crazy spooks etc!
 
Thanks everyone for their replies. It is really an interesting topic!

Booboos - to answer your question, yes i do think my horse is in front of my leg - but as i have previously been riding round on a pretty loose rein with a very soft to non-existent contact then she has perphaps not had anything to go forward into which is why i got a better result the other night when i took a slightly shorter rein and stronger contact. Unfortunately my regular teacher is heavily pregnant at the minute and not teaching but I am trying to find someone else to help me!

Interestingly i recently bought Ingrid Klimke's video Basic Training of the 4 year old horse. I hadn't had chance to watch it before, so i put it on last night and i have to say that she rode with a shorter rein and more contact than i expected from the description in the book. She certainly didn't have no contact. She also just let the rein out when the horse was stretching forward and down as you would expect. [As an aside, she is such an amazing rider with an incredible position - she never seems to move but she still flows with the horse!]

Please keep your thoughts coming!
 
one more thing When writing for dr judges
More often they comment on NO contact rather than too much.

several judges say 'so many people at lower levels have reins too long and nothing for the horse to work into'
 
Whatever you're doing the horse should always stretch forwards into the rein, even if working long and low. People talk about the reins being like sticks and the horse's head following the hand. This only works if the horse is working off your leg and really swinging through with his hindlegs. Therefore you are not really thinking about how firm a contact to take as the horse is offering to you what he is capable of at his level of training. It is not about pulling back on the reins at all as this only restricts the hindleg.

Agree with what Janey said, if someone says to take a stronger contact it doesn't mean you pull more, it means you drive the horse forwards with your legs more into your seat/hands eg a strung out horse would become shorter in the frame with a more active hindleg.

There is no point at all riding a horse with no contact as the energy just falls out the front door onto the forehand. Do you ever see the pro's baby horses spook as much as amateurs? No! Because they're held right there between leg and hand. It's a feeling you can't really grasp by reading but the theory does help, doesn't matter what sort of horse you ride the principle is the same of how the energy flows from backend to front.
 
dressager said:
Do you ever see the pro's baby horses spook as much as amateurs? No! Because they're held right there between leg and hand. It's a feeling you can't really grasp by reading but the theory does help, doesn't matter what sort of horse you ride the principle is the same of how the energy flows from backend to front.
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I am just in the middle of starting a new thread about this :D
 
I think we are talking about 2 different things.
I would obviously expect to have a more sophisticated dialogue with an older horse. With a baby, I would have the lightest possible contact, whilst still feeling that the horse is working off the leg & starting to grasp being into the hand.
I would want the horse to be in the hand with any real pressure til it has the muscle to support this otherwise I would worry about it being too soft in front of the saddle, either by shortening or by curling, I think this is a big problem with the way many more professionally produced horses seem to go.

Although I agree in principle with having a dressage horse into a strong contact. I would never want to own or ride a horse which in normal day to day activity required me to be continually driving or to have strong muscles. I see both of those in dressage horses. My ideal would be far more toward a western style contact, where the maximum possible aids are from seat, legs, weight and voice and the bit merely acting as a frame for the horse to work within. I woudl certainly expect all my horses to happily work with no contact at all lots of the time and to be perfectly able to balance themselves in all paces on a loose rein.
 
hear hear, siennamum, especially your last sentence.
i cannot understand the theory that if you have a horse going truly forward in front of the leg, and let go of the reins, it will collapse onto its forehand and/or run off with you.
 
Again agree with last two posters (kerrilli/siennamum) - and surely in dressage tests you have to do stuff like give and retake? And more and more tests are now asking for things like trot a 20m circle allowing horse to stretch?
I really can't bear a horse that is heavy in my hand/I have to drive forwards the whole time. Was riding a friends horse last winter and she is a bit like that and it just didn't have the same enjoyment for me. I like my horses to be in front of my leg, and happy to move off my leg, but to be light in front. I don't mean dropping the contact, there is still a connection there, but most of the energy sjould surely come from the hindleg? And front end just containing that? Contain vs constrain I guess!
 
ooh, interesting thread.

I'm attending as an auditor the PK teacher training course and his idea on contact is really quite at odds with a lot of modern dressage - as I'm sure anyone who will have read his books will be aware. In fact, it's a lot more along the lines of the lighter contact mentioned by Kerilli and siennamum.

Actually, I've also got really into the idea of the NH style stuff of starting a horse in a halter, so then you're sure you worry about forwards first, and body/ leg aids, and then introduce the bit a little later. Surely it has to be right from the horse's perspective that you're not applying the bit (which crudely at baby level would equal breaks) at the same time ask asking forward? .... you need to establish forward and then start refining what you do with the mouth?
 
"Although I agree in principle with having a dressage horse into a strong contact. I would never want to own or ride a horse which in normal day to day activity required me to be continually driving or to have strong muscles. I see both of those in dressage horses. My ideal would be far more toward a western style contact"

You should never ride with constant driving aids that require strong muscles! I've never come across that suggestion from any trainer. Laura B is tiny but can ride big strong horses into the contact. You should teach your young horse to go off the lightest leg aids from day 1 and not have to acquire muscles to keep nagging.

Fair enough if you're coming at it from a Western point of view, I have no experience in this at all. I am more interested in German Scales of Training. Many of the old masters do advocate starting and finishing the session by at least 15 mins free walk with no contact on a baby, but not during the main part of the session, the horse should be seeking the contact.

Of course if a horse is on your aids you can give and re-take the reins for a few seconds, but why is the whole test not ridden like this then? Because it can cause more problems than solve them. I agree at the lower levels you can get away with no contact/behind the bridle riding but I have never seen a successful advanced horse (Spanish/Western riding aside) here or in Germany performing movements without being ridden forwards into the contact. I see a lot of photos posted on here of horses BTV which suggests contact issues/lack of true connection.

Yes there are probably very uphill horses that you could probably ride with no bridle whatsoever and they'd still be in an ideal frame! But for mortals with lesser horses that aren't built "on the bit" its a bit more tricky.

Everyone's perception of heavy and light contact is obviously different, all I am saying is when I ride I aim to feel an elastic connection by focusing on the forwards aspect and not on what to do with my hands, that is secondary, as the hand is still and receiving by default. I am 7.5 stone and don't ride anything under 16.3hh, so strength doesn't come into it at all.
 
Just to add, I think it depends on the horse. F draws himself behind the vertical, so his neck is too tight and the reins become lose (all his own doing, that is where he naturally wants to be, he will do it all on his own in the field). With him I aim for a 'heavy' contact because if he puts ANY weight into the contact it's a massive achievement and he is much closer to the ideal. R can use your hand to lean against and he uses the whole of the front end of his body to be on the forehand, so with him I aim for a 'lighter' contact, I do mini give and retakes constantly and I want to feel I have tiny movements in the bit all the time.
 
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