Total lack of confidence in farrier (horse)

[Casey76]

How do you deal with a horse who has completely lose confidence with the farrier?

Not one of mine, but belongs to a friend on mine on my yard. The horse is a bit of a baggage and will threaten to bite and kick for almost all basic handling activities, and her last farrier really took exception to this and reacted very badly with escalating behaviour on both parts. E.g. she tried to take her foot back while the shoe was being removed and she got yelled at, then jerked in the face with the head collar. The next time the farrier tried to hold on to her foot and she kicked out. In two shoeings she was kicked in the belly with toe capped boots, hit with a rasp, and the last time she only picked her foot up (as she has been taught to by a touch on the hock) and he hit her with a hammer.

Now, no one can get near her back legs without her spinning round and threatening to kick, and kicking out.

A new, very sympathetic farrier has been employed, and he has been three times in a week. The first time he managed to get her front feet done without too much issue, but couldn’t get her hind shoes off; she then lost the shoe he was trying to remove, but despite two more visits, including today, when she had two units of sedalin, she remains on three shoes. The mare likes the new farrier, and is happy for him to make a fuss of her, touch her legs etc, but not to pick up her hind feet at all.

The next attempt is going to be next week, when my friend will get the vet out to iv sedate.

I know the issue is part bad manners, and part fear, and I’m not sure how I would approach it from a training perspective, as if it was purely bad manners, or pure fear I would approach it in different ways.

The mare has been shoe all of her 14 years, and her owner is adamant she is to remain shod (with duplo composite shoes) so going barefoot isn’t a solution.

Any ideas?

 

[OldieButGoodie]

I had a horse like that - bad with lifting the hind feet so he had to be sedated for the farrier. Turned out he had shivers.

 

[Shady]

What's the horse like with her owner picking up her hooves ?
Obviously options are limited if the owner won't go barefoot, seems a bit stupid to me as this is where i would start. Go back to basics and get the trust back with picking out and handling , then light rasps, then introduce farrier again but not to shoe, just to rasp and go from there.
Iv'e never seen such heavy handed farriers until coming here, no patience at all and no empathy either, one wonders why they even do it, they are so bad.
I know this method works as the PRE we rescued was shocking with farriers, sent 3 flying, would spin, kick, bite, you name it he did it , pretty horrible for everybody actually, especially him and it was a combination of pain and fear. It took many months of patient handling and the first farrier yelled at him for moving so we had to start again a bit but the next one gave him carrots and was gentle and patient so we made huge progress after that. Now he is fine and doesn't even mind an old fashioned farrier who uses a knife and mallet rather than nippers.
If your friend won't go back to basics to get the trust back ,sedation is probably the only answer which is ridiculous, what if the horse needs medical attention?

 

[YorksG]

I think, like Shady, that the answer is to take the shoes off and work on the owner being able to pick up the feet first. Our younger Appy got very upset about her feet following a problem that needed the vet and sedation. I used clicker training and got her so that she picked them up well for me, then got the farrier to come out for a morning when we had me pick up her feet, then him, then left her for a coffee break for us, then rinsed and repeated for the entire morning. She is now very good for the farrier. It was her fronts that she was dodgy about and her default was to stand up on her back legs! She is now so good at picking her fronts up that I have to brush her lower legs with her foot in the air, as the farrier commented the last time he was here, I have over trained her!
She is still without shoes and I hope that this will remain the case.

 

[ester]

Is the horse a baggage or does the horse likely have something else going on which makes it so? Only because if that is the case all the training in the world isn't going to help and for the sake of the farrier it would make sense just to always sedate.

Outwith that I would let the farrier train the horse how he wants to and follow his advice if he wanted anything doing between visits.

 

[paddi22]

If I was the owner I'd check is there a physical issue that causes the horse discomfort, and if not, then the owner has to up their game to get the horse more mannerly. It's not fair to expect professionals to come in and risk injury etc because the horse doesn't have basic training.

personally I don't believe the baggage issue is an excuse for any horse, we get rescues in here and some of them are the stroppiest rudest things ever, but they all settle down with consistent, strict handling.

the issue here isn't the farrier at all, the issue is the owner needs to get a professional groundwork behaviourist in to teach her how to handle the horse correctly.

 

[Caol Ila]

I'd stop thinking of it as 'bad manners' for a start. As soon as you frame it that way, you're projecting emotions on the horse that might not be there. The horse is not doing those things to pi$$ off its handlers. It's doing those things because through rough handling, inconsistent handling, and/or physical pain, it has learned to.

When dealing with a misbehaving horse, instead of thinking of it as bad manners or naughtiness, I think, the horse doesn't want to be stressed and in a position where it feels it has to kick anymore than I want to be kicked. Of course you have to be firm and set boundaries, but at the same time, you have to show the horse that thing in question isn't so bad and it doesn't have to be stressed and defensive. That is the art of horsemanship and the catch-22 of it: too soft and the horse never learns boundaries and runs all over humans; too hard, and the horse never learns what the human wants and finds humans stressful creatures to be around, thus developing more resistence behaviours.

 

[Nudibranch]

Nothing new to add but would echo the above. Remove shoes (boot if necessary) and owner works on general manners and foot handling. I would also think about physical issues. My big lad has djd and at about 18 months old, before the diagnosis, became awkward to handle with his hinds. He's a kind soul and I knew then something wasn't right. The guy who trimmed him at the time got rather cocky about it and dismissed my concerns, and the toe dragging, and on his last visit showed a most inappropriate display of temper. This is a guy who is always trotted out on here as being fantastic I might add, and if you ask for recommendations in the area his name will always be quoted. Hoof knowledge wise he is, but his attitude that day was not acceptable and it did leave the poor beast with an issue which had to be worked on.
He still struggles to hold them up but a good vet and a patient farrier have made all the difference.

 

[Casey76]

The horse has navicular (erosion of the navicular bone) and stands in a typical navicular posture, and is very girthy. She has a forage only diet, and has Blue Chip Karma every day.

I find her exceptionally bad mannered to handle, e.g she must be tied up to groom/tack up else she just walks circles around you, consequently she is always tied up with a haynet to do anything.

She has been taught to lift her feet with a light touch to the inside if the knee or hock, which she does (as long as she is eating hay, if she not tied or eating, she is morse likely to wave her back legs around); but the last time with the old farrier, when he battered her for doing something she was asked to do has ruined her. She is now much more defensive and faster to react defensively.

 

[SEL]

How is she if distracted with food? My one who came to me needing sedation due to farrier fear can now be done providing he is distracted with food in front of him. He's gradually learning not to be scared and to associate feet with nice stuff.

 

[Shady]

The horse has navicular (erosion of the navicular bone) and stands in a typical navicular posture, and is very girthy. She has a forage only diet, and has Blue Chip Karma every day.

I find her exceptionally bad mannered to handle, e.g she must be tied up to groom/tack up else she just walks circles around you, consequently she is always tied up with a haynet to do anything.

She has been taught to lift her feet with a light touch to the inside if the knee or hock, which she does (as long as she is eating hay, if she not tied or eating, she is morse likely to wave her back legs around); but the last time with the old farrier, when he battered her for doing something she was asked to do has ruined her. She is now much more defensive and faster to react defensively.

Well that puts a different light on it altogether then Casey, she's probably in pain all the time and has now had enough of heavy handed farriers causing yet more discomfort to her and is reacting accordingly.

 

[be positive]

Well that puts a different light on it altogether then Casey, she's probably in pain all the time and has now had enough of heavy handed farriers causing yet more discomfort to her and is reacting accordingly.

Rather than sedating I would ask about a bute trial, she sounds as if there is more going on than just being difficult for the sake of it.

 

[pansymouse]

Another thing to consider is the owners anxiety. I had a friend and had to be sedated for the farrier. One time she couldn't cover her appointment so I handled the horse who was a bit tetchy but perfectly manageable. It seems that the owner's anxiety at the horse playing up had started a vicious circle of escalating bad behaviour. After we discovered this she didn't attend for the farrier, I covered it and the horse calmed right down the whole process was stress free for all concerned after a couple more visits.

 

[tristar]

perhaps she has bilateral nav which makes it difficult for her to put all her weight on the front.

i would not attempt to shoe this horse at all at the mo, if she picks up a foot to a tap i would reward her with a treat , i would do this only, for a while then move on to either holding the foot for a couple of seconds then putting it down, and running my grooming brush up and down her leg all done to treats, if she can accept being trimmed eventually, i would hoof boot her hinds, whilst continuing to progress to tapping her hoof with a rubber mallet when lifted, and extending the time she holds up her leg, and also holding up the leg very low down as opposed to holding it up high, as i have done this with cranky horses and it worked a treat,.

i would be looking at weeks , months, every day twice a day, and no reaction to the horse whenever it objects.

sounds like a poor old girl bless her.

 

[Damnation]

I'd be looking at a bute trial and another person holding the horse for the farrier.

 

[OldFogie]

If anyone had so much as tried to hit my horse with a HAMMER!!! I'd have buried them under the muck heap or towed their dead body around the farm tied to the tractor.

I've seen this kind of thing with farriers - think they're god's gift and everyone else is in awe of them because you can't ride without shoes and they operate like the old guilds - upset one and you've upset 'em all.
My daughter's eventer (it was an event when she actually managed to saddle her!!haha) was a proper madam ( so was the daughter but different story) and almost killed the best Farrier I've known - unfortunate as he was very good, conscientious and patient - she planted him with both back feet at chest height and threw up up the barn wall like horses do in cartoons. Even then no violence on his part but he did refuse to do her again.
Almost a year later I found a piece of multi-stranded wire about 75mm long embedded in the mare's navel scar - your guess is as good as mine how it got there but for certain it had been working its way out for ages and causing the poor girl pain especially when her legs were pulled up.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I'm afraid if I was in general pain and someone had come along and beat the **** out of me I'd be very keen to kick them in the head next time I saw them too. It's a pretty logical response if you can't run away.

Sounds like the mare needs some pain management and some calm consistent handling.

 

[Leo Walker]

I'd strongly suspect physical issues as the root cause, but clicker training will make a positive association and will be fairly quick

 

[DabDab]

I'm afraid if I was in general pain and someone had come along and beat the **** out of me I'd be very keen to kick them in the head next time I saw them too. It's a pretty logical response if you can't run away.

Sounds like the mare needs some pain management and some calm consistent handling.

Yeerrr, tbh the mare sounds pretty tolerant under the circumstances, poor girl.

 

[Nudibranch]

Just to add - there are a fair few issues bute won't make a difference to so not to rely on it for ruling out pain.

 

[sunnyone]

Casey's in France. Bute may not be an option.When my UK supply ran out the vet said she couldn't prescribe more than 4 ? packets. So now we have aspirin for the arthritic retiree (horse).

 

[cobsarefab]

With my mare I'd go round all her feet picking up each one in turn but putting them immediately back down giving treats after each foot. If the Farrier has punished her for the correct reaction to being asked to pick up her foot is it any wonder she's having a pop at anyone who is trying now.

 

[YasandCrystal]

I'd be looking at a bute trial and another person holding the horse for the farrier.

This for sure. Poor horse sounds to be in pain.

 

[DabDab]

This for sure. Poor horse sounds to be in pain.

I think they're aware that she is in pain - look at the list of ailments she's suffering from. But it sounds like they were managing that until a thick headed farrier came along to confuse and upset her and give her a bashing.

 

[ester]

True but if she is in pain, and at the very least she does have sore feet, the owner should also have had her on bute before shoeing to make it more comfortable for her and handled the horse appropriately for the farrier.

 

[spookypony]

Having shoes on probably won't be helping the navicular issue, and the navicular pain in (both) fronts won't be helping her pick up her hinds, and the violent farrier won't be helping to convince her to be cooperative about doing something she finds uncomfortable. Sounds to me, though, as the mare has an owner problem, rather than just a farrier problem. Her owner needs to be convinced to look at the problem more logically, and to take the time to address the behaviour through as much positive reinforcement as needed, which could take a long time.

A few months ago, my pony became reluctant to hold up the LH for the trimmer. The trimmer initially thought he was just being impatient. I thought he was reluctant to shift all his weight to the RH. When the trimmer moved to the RH, there was no problem holding it up. The trimmer apologised to the pony. Shortly after, the pony had his physio (for an injury), and the physio confirmed that the pony was rather tight and sore around the RH, probably from compensating for the healing injury in the LF. A nice sports massage and some exercises later, he's much better about the LH being picked up again. There is rarely smoke without at least some fire.

 

[Casey76]

Thank you for all of your suggestions.

A bute trial is never going to happen. Vets over here are very wary about giving out anti inflammatories willynilly, and the only two horses I know who are on long term anti inflamms were imported form the uk on them and the vet has begrudgingly continued on. I have one friend who now has to buy a prescription for danilon as the vet will no longer import it (and it isn’t licensed in France or Germany).

Even when Blitz had laminitis, I was given enough bute to last one week only. It is unheard of for people to have a stash “in case of emergencies”

Anyway, back to the horse. She is, I feel, just incredibly ungenerous, and the type of mare who gives mares a bad name. Her bad manners have been pandered to and worked around, rather than corrected, in the 6 years my friend has owned her. If she feels like she can get away with things she does (like coming in from the field on her back legs if with a novice or unconfident handler). I agree that with consistent, but firm (not aggressive) handling, she would improve - lots, however the consistent and firm is going to be an issue...

 

[ester]

but her feet hurt?! I think she is allowed to be a bit ungenerous.
I agree it sounds like she has an owner issue more than anything. Was the owner there supervising her horse for shoeing?

If bute is unlicenced what do you use as a painkiler/anti inflammatory?

 

[DabDab]

True but if she is in pain, and at the very least she does have sore feet, the owner should also have had her on bute before shoeing to make it more comfortable for her and handled the horse appropriately for the farrier.

Sure, but that's not a bute trial, that's using pain relief for a specific non-avoidable activity.

There is a tenancy for it to be suggested that eradicating pain should mean that a horse's issues will all be solved, and owners get disheartened when thus isn't the case with their own horse. Generally, being treated unfairly when in pain will affect their behaviour and general outlook long after the pain has gone. If I had a broken arm in a sling and every time someone touched my arm they pulled it and made it hurt and then shouted at me for wincing, then I wouldn't be letting anyone touch my arm for a long time, even though my arm had fully mended.

 

[ester]

I didn't suggest it was a bute trial?

I'm just not convinced this is all the farrier's responsibility/the owner was managing the situation at all.