Towing weights can somebody please put the record straight

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maisiemoo

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Getting really ticked off now, want to buy a vehicle to pull ifor williams 505 and 13.3 pony, combined weight 1380 kg. Been told today will need a vehicle that can pull trailers maximum gross weight , is this correct ?, sounds daft to me, most of my driving is local so don't need a great big greedy 4x4, have been looking at hyundai sante fe . Why do most car dealerships tell me this is fine, even the hyundai tucson was fine according to most dealers , that will pull 1600kg. So confused now , only want to go to local shows !!!!
 
Its all very confusing,lol...put in british horse trailer towing laws in your search engine and it should come up with all the info you need and explanations for it :)
 
maisiemoo said:
Getting really ticked off now, want to buy a vehicle to pull ifor williams 505 and 13.3 pony, combined weight 1380 kg. Been told today will need a vehicle that can pull trailers maximum gross weight , is this correct ?, sounds daft to me, most of my driving is local so don't need a great big greedy 4x4, have been looking at hyundai sante fe . Why do most car dealerships tell me this is fine, even the hyundai tucson was fine according to most dealers , that will pull 1600kg. So confused now , only want to go to local shows !!!!
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if you took your car licence before 1997 or you have taken your trailer towing test then all you need to worry about is not exceeding the towing capacity of the tow car or the mgw of the trailer, so if the trailer could be 2700 kg fully loaded but you are only useing it to carry one pony and its total loaded weight is 1400 say and your car can tow 1600 then that is fine however i think the law is different if you have a newer licence you can only drive something up to 3500kg and i think the tow car has to be heaver than the trailer weight rating ...
 
I would get on to your local VOSA station and check it to be sure - better to check and make sure the tow vehicle is actually up to the job than find out by being stopped by Mr VOSA and being done for it not being legal!

Personally, I would want to check it with VOSA rather than listening to the peeps in the car dealership.
 
Its such a cloudy subject, and v difficult to get your head around....as far as i am aware you will be fine towing with a hyundai santa fe....i have one (2.4 diesel) and its towing capability is 1500kg as long as the unladen weight of your trailer+weight of pony and any extras does not exceed the towing capability of your car then you are legal, but i think about 85% of your cars ability is recommended for braking and safety reasons.
I very happily tow my bateson deauville and one horse with my santa fe, bateson trailer is 880kg unladen and my horse is approx 500kg which equals 1380 and then tack/water etc! I hope im legal lol!!

TBH i know it was prob dangerous but my dad used to tow the trailer with 2 horses in with a ford modeo back in the day lol (we're talking near on 20 yr ago) and there was never a problem...but i understand there are laws only for our and our horses safety :)

Hope this helps :))
 
When we were looking for a car, we found this website really useful, we worked on 85% kerbweight, so if you took that into consideration on your 1600, then towing 1380 will actually take you overweight before you go anywhere.

Car dealerships are only interested in a sale, not what you are intending the vehicle to do, we found that out with the Honda dealership that tried to convince me that one of their vehicles was up to the job, they had to rethink when we pointed out the above.

http://www.cuddles.abelgratis.net/kerbweights.htm

ETA We ended up buying a shogun which is a brilliant vehicle (I think anyway) for towing.
 
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Without even going into all the whys and wherefores.. if your car can pull a maximum of 1600 but the trailer and pony is 1380, you are only leaving yourself 220 maximum - and have not taken into account passenger, tack and petrol weight. Also means you could well be stuffed if you met any kind of hill.

Manufacturers will give the correct towing capability but trying to tow with a lighter vehicle at the top end of your towing is dangerous. So I bought one of these greedy 4 x 4 to tow with and researched for a proper towing vehicle. My jeep has a max capacity of 3.3 tonnes as I tow a big horse and full size trailer. Sorry but trying to cut down the capacity without giving yourself enough power could be really dangerous.
 
Fiona_C said:
When we were looking for a car, we found this website really useful, we worked on 85% kerbweight, so if you took that into consideration on your 1600, then towing 1380 will actually take you overweight before you go anywhere.

Car dealerships are only interested in a sale, not what you are intending the vehicle to do, we found that out with the Honda dealership that tried to convince me that one of their vehicles was up to the job, they had to rethink when we pointed out the above.

http://www.cuddles.abelgratis.net/kerbweights.htm
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the kerb weight has nothing to do with legal towing.. it is bull scatter from the beardy caravan club types !!
you need to stick with the manufactures recomended towing capacity to be safe and legal but remember what will do a lot will do a little, plenty of power in reserve makes towing safe and easy something right on the limit is hard work for it and the driver...
 
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Luci07 said:
Without even going into all the whys and wherefores.. if your car can pull a maximum of 1600 but the trailer and pony is 1380, you are only leaving yourself 220 maximum - and have not taken into account passenger, tack and petrol weight. Also means you could well be stuffed if you met any kind of hill.

Manufacturers will give the correct towing capability but trying to tow with a lighter vehicle at the top end of your towing is dangerous. So I bought one of these greedy 4 x 4 to tow with and researched for a proper towing vehicle. My jeep has a max capacity of 3.3 tonnes as I tow a big horse and full size trailer. Sorry but trying to cut down the capacity without giving yourself enough power could be really dangerous.
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Petrol and the passenger comes into your vehicle MAM, not your towing capacity, surely...
 
martlin said:
Petrol and the passenger comes into your vehicle MAM, not your towing capacity, surely...
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yes correct ... however you could reduce your towing capacity by exeeding the train weight because you were carrying a big weight in the tow vehicle!! this can happen with vans but is highly unlikely in a family type car/ 4x4..
 
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thanks guys for all the advise i have never towed before and have no intention of not doing it properly. Such a mindfield seems the only size vehicle to be safe is too much for my everyday driving so might have to not bother , shame as can't get to shows , and daughter just discovered the joys of jumping on new pony . There's always my pushbike around town i suppose lol .
 
type in the search bar on here Hyundai santa fe....lots of people use them and get on very well with them, hope you manage to sort something out :)
 
The question you're asking is does the car have to be able to tow the actual trailer weight or does it have to be able to tow the theoretical maxium trailer weight?

Because the basic answer is 'noone seems to know'. I have asked the police, vosa and the DVLA and none could give me a straight answer as they just didn't know. The closest answer I got was 'the officer at the site will look at the trialer plate and the car plate, made a decision and it will be left to the courts to decide.' You may be allowed away with it or you will, more likely, be dragged to a weight bridge.


So to make absolutly sure you're always within the law (once they decide what it actually is!) then you can either get a bigger car OR you can have the trailer down plated. Which might be the easist thing to do. You can have the trailer's plate changed (for not much money) to any weight you want (as long as it's above the rtailers own weight). Then you just have to stick to it.

Obviously you can't change the trailers own weight but you can change MAM: so you could easily have the plate changed from saying 2700kg MAM to 1500kg MAM, which would carry a pony easily.
 
I tow a single cheval liberte bought because it is light.I tow with a mercedes saloon.My trailer has an unladen weight of 550kgs and my horse on a weigh tape 450kgs.The maximum on the trailer (forget the tech term) is 1400kgs.HOWEVER the maximum braked trailer weight my car can tow is 1100kgs.I checked with the BHS,caravan club and DVLA.All said this was fine.I have a pre 1997 licence.The 85% rule was ADVISORY when the caravan club was advising new towers and when guide lines were much more fluid.Having towed a number of quite big heavy caravans with a variety of cars I think it is wise advice.I think your saloon should be fine so long as your licence is ok.
 
Kallibear said:
The question you're asking is does the car have to be able to tow the actual trailer weight or does it have to be able to tow the theoretical maxium trailer weight?

Because the basic answer is 'noone seems to know'. I have asked the police, vosa and the DVLA and none could give me a straight answer as they just didn't know. The closest answer I got was 'the officer at the site will look at the trialer plate and the car plate, made a decision and it will be left to the courts to decide.' You may be allowed away with it or you will, more likely, be dragged to a weight bridge.


So to make absolutly sure you're always within the law (once they decide what it actually is!) then you can either get a bigger car OR you can have the trailer down plated. Which might be the easist thing to do. You can have the trailer's plate changed (for not much money) to any weight you want (as long as it's above the rtailers own weight). Then you just have to stick to it.

Obviously you can't change the trailers own weight but you can change MAM: so you could easily have the plate changed from saying 2700kg MAM to 1500kg MAM, which would carry a pony easily.
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sadly you asked the wrong people!!! however vosa and the police should know or aleast be bothred to find out the facts because there job is to inforce the laws of the land and not guess.. and the dvla as just licence people and vehicles and are just pen pushers.. its the department for transport you need for the facts or you can trawl through the book sweet and maxwell which is the bible of trafic law..
but basicly a trailer under 3.5 ton isn't plated like a hgv trailer has to be along with an anuall mot .. and the laws about weights that apply to HGVs dont on our little horse trailers.... look up dpt towing weights for the defintive answer....
 
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maisiemoo said:
thanks guys for all the advise i have never towed before and have no intention of not doing it properly. Such a mindfield seems the only size vehicle to be safe is too much for my everyday driving so might have to not bother , shame as can't get to shows , and daughter just discovered the joys of jumping on new pony . There's always my pushbike around town i suppose lol .
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obviously not a school run mum then!! as they have to have a humungus MPV or SUV just to transport the little darling and keep up with the joneses.. LOL :D
 
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Having been stopped at the side of the road while towing at one of those make shift MOT places ( with no weighbridge) the figure the police officer and the VOSA man looked at was the MAM of my trailer, they checked the legal towing limit of my car and let me go on my way.
The MAM of my trailer is 2 ton the towing limit on my car is 3.5 ton. I questioned the fact my trailer could have only weighed 850 kilos if empty and therefore been towed by anything. They basically said if stopped road side and they check MAM and towing capacity and it is easily in they just let you on your way, if the capacity of the car is under the MAM they will escort you to the weighbridge to check.
 
That makes a lot of sense Silverskye as the theoretical weight ofmu trailer is above the manufacturers braked towing weight.The legal departments of the BHS and the Caravan Club plus the DVLA all said that what I was doing was safe and legal but I MAY be asked to prove it.So I would have to go to the weighbridge in that situation.My cars kerbweight is about 1540kg.
 
There was a similar thread before and still total confusion. I tow with a 2 litre deisel Santa Fe. The handbook says it can tow 2 tonnes which is more than the kerbweight. I am sure if you look at Discoveries etc. they weigh less than the amount they can tow. I had my IW 505 downrated to two tonnes to match my car, which didn't cost me anything. I tow one horse or two ponies. Goes anywhere, its a great car.
 
horsemadmum1 said:
There was a similar thread before and still total confusion. I tow with a 2 litre deisel Santa Fe. The handbook says it can tow 2 tonnes which is more than the kerbweight. I am sure if you look at Discoveries etc. they weigh less than the amount they can tow. I had my IW 505 downrated to two tonnes to match my car, which didn't cost me anything. I tow one horse or two ponies. Goes anywhere, its a great car.
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This is correct, most, if not all, vehicles can legally tow more than their own kerbweight. I am no beardy caravan clubber, but have no desire to be overtaken by my trailer going down a hill one day - so the 85% calculation is my yardstick
 
Hopefully this will be a complete answer.

You cannot exceed the Train Weight stated on the Manufacturers Plate fitted to your vehicle. The Train weight is the vehicle + load and the trailer + load. Look for the Manufacturers Plate on either the door B Pillars or on the bulkhead under the bonnet.

You cannot exceed the maximum trailer weight quoted by the manufacturer. Often they will give two figures. The first for an un-braked trailer which is usually 750kg, because that is the maximum weight that type of trailer may be under Construction & Use Regulations. The second is for a braked trailer. This may be all sorts of values but the maximum for overrun brakes is 3500kg. After that you run into the territory of power brakes (air brakes to you and me) which you won’t find on the cars, vans and 4x4s we’re talking about.

When talking about towing weights with cars, vans and 4x4s you need to remember that we are talking about ACTUAL weights not the weight given on the trailer plate. As an example, My Shogun LWB has a Manufacturers maximum trailer weight of 3300kg. Therefore I can tow a trailer with a plate showing 3500kg but the trailer may not actually weigh more than 3300kg.

Be careful loading trailers, weigh everything and remember a weigh tape is cheaper than a fine and all the embuggerance a Prohibition Notice entails. You may not exceed the maximum gross weight shown on the trailer plate. You need to know the unladen weight of the trailer, either a weighbridge or manufacturers spec sheet, although be careful with this figure if extras are fitted. To that figure add the weights of horse(s), feed, water, tack, etc, etc. Make sure it does not exceed the maximum gross weight shown on the trailer plate.
An example; Equitrek Space-treka L, maximum gross weight 2600kg. Unladen weight 1260kg. Bowman & Bertha and their food total 1340kg. In our case saddles and all other stuff travels in the Shogun, as unladen weight + horses = maximum gross weight of 2600kg.

Driver licences. I know the original question didn’t really deal with this, but if you’ve made it this far we might as well do the whole lot.
A category B licence allows you to drive a vehicle with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg and a seating capacity not exceeding 9 (including the driver). You may drive the same vehicle towing a trailer with a MAM not exceeding 750kg.
Holders of category B licences may also drive a vehicle towing a trailer with a MAM exceeding 750 kg PROVIDING; the Authorised Train Weight does not exceed 3500kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle. It is for this reason that many horse trailers are ‘downplated’ so they can be towed by lighter vehicles. Be careful about overloading when a trailer is ‘downplated.’
Holders of category B+E may drive a vehicle in category B towing a trailer with a MAM exceeding 750kg, which pretty much describes most vehicle horse trailer combinations.
If you passed your car teats before 01/01/1997 you will have category B+E automatically. If you passed you car test on or after 01/01/1997 then you will have to take a trailer test if you want to tow large trailers, unless it falls within the derogation described above.

Hope this helps.

Anybody who got this far deserves several bottles of Hobgoblin, but not if you’re driving.
 
You can still have the "tail wag the dog" even if you are nowhere near the 85% figure. I have had a trailer snaking and causing the car and trailer to spin 180 degrees and that was a small light flatbed trailer with an incorrectly distributed load of a few bags of cement, some of which were lost during the spin. Luckily no-one was hurt, but it taught me that the way you drive and the way the load is distributed has to be taken into account as much as any other yardstick. Lots of people put a small pony in the nose of their trailer, although the handbooks go on about noseweight and how it affects towing.
 
I stumbled across this website and think it is very useful in telling you what car can tow what weight. You can even use the calculator (put in trailer and horse weight) and it will list the cars that are capable of towing it. The Santa Fe should be find (but may be dependent on model) my friend tows with hers - an older 03 plate I think and it's been fab but she only tows ponies anyway.

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_vehicles.htm
 
That is an interesting website, but it doesn't list the dealers. I know that there are 3 dealers of different makes within reach, but the search facility didn't list them.
 
I wish someone would just develop a website with all this information in one place for us horse owners. Something like a mix of the one above and What Car would be really useful. I have been looking at a Santa Fe for towing one horse, but every website I have looked at gives different maximum towing weights for the model I'm who do you contact to find out the actual answer as it sounds like dealerships don't know what they are talking about.

Also I have a very old Laurie trailer (like a Rice) which I have done up and I'm pretty sure it doesn't have a manufacturers plate. So how on earth do I find out all the weights. Laurie went bust years ago so it wouldn't be possible to find out from them.
 
Orangehorse I don't get what you mean - if you are looking for a particular car then just go to the maker website and search for a dealer in your area. It's pretty simple to find. Either that or look on autotrader, exchange and mart etc and select car make and model and that will bring up all cars in your area, you can select trade or private or both.

It's not that hard to do car searches or comparisons really. You can select at least different makes/models and compare them on what car. I have done it plebty of times, it's very easy!
 
Aniseed said:
I wish someone would just develop a website with all this information in one place for us horse owners. Something like a mix of the one above and What Car would be really useful. I have been looking at a Santa Fe for towing one horse, but every website I have looked at gives different maximum towing weights for the model I'm who do you contact to find out the actual answer as it sounds like dealerships don't know what they are talking about.

Also I have a very old Laurie trailer (like a Rice) which I have done up and I'm pretty sure it doesn't have a manufacturers plate. So how on earth do I find out all the weights. Laurie went bust years ago so it wouldn't be possible to find out from them.
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take it to a public weighbridge you can then get the unladen weight and its a fairly safe bet to add what you think two large horses would weigh and combine all for a aproximate idea of the max grose weight...
 
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