Trailer towing weights - am I being an idiot??

[little_flea]

Warning - BORING POST.

I have recently purchased a Mitsubishi Shogun 5 door car -its weight is 1800kg (I think). 85% of this is 1530kg - my horse weighs 650 + say 100 extra for bits - this leaves 780 kg for the trailer (if sticking to the recommended 85% weight rule)

This means that even a lightweight trailer such as a Cheval Liberte or a Bateson, takes me over the recommended weight, right?

I frequently see people towing 2 horses in a heavy Ifor Williams trailer - this must be a total weight of nearly 2800 -3000 kilos - do these people all have cars that weigh way over 3 tonnes? Everyone thinks I am crazy when I say I would only tow just one horse in a lightweight trailer with the Shogun, they all think it is capable of so much more.

So how can the towing weight on a car that weights 1800kg be 2800kg if it is illegal to tow anything beyond the kerb weight of the car?

Am I missing something really obvious?

 

[posie_honey]

i believe that the 85% recommendation was introduced for caravans which used to be unbraked - and it is just that - a recomendation

but for braked trailers you can go by the max authorised tow weight of the car/truck etc

 

[jumpthemoon]

The obvious thing that you are missing is that lots of people have no idea about towing weights or choose to ignore the rules/recommendations....

 

[jumpthemoon]

85% is still recommended though - even if you go over that and go up to 100%, there are still lots of people who tow over that limit (making them illegal)

 

[little_flea]

So (showing how stoopid I am now) - is a horse trailer a braked trailer? Ie could I go with the maximum towing weight here instead - this would in effect mean I could tow two horses?

Spoke to DVLA and they said that the load has to weigh less than what we are towing with... is this not the case with horse trailers then?

 

[Teamkenny1]

Try these sites as I found them very useful.

http://www.chrishodgetrucks.co.uk/pagelaw/law10.htm

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/SCRIPTS/texis.exe/webinator/search/?query=towing+weights&pr=CORP

(go to section 3) Quick guide to towing small trailers

 

[BigRed]

Look in the manual that you have for your car. It will tell you what it is legally capable of towing. You will find that it can easily tow a two horse trailer with two big horses inside. I believe the shogun can tow 3 tons, my own Isuzu Trooper can tow slightly more at 3.5 ton. A Ifor Williams comes in at just under 1 ton. My own 1.63tb weighs 625kg.

 

[little_flea]

Thank you. So the towing weight has nothing to do with it, even with a braked trailer (all horse trailers?) - just the kerb weight? What IS the max towing weight for then?

I can't believe how confusing this is...

 

[little_flea]

Yes - if it comes down to the max towing weight, I can tow 2800 kg with that car - however, this would obviously take the weight of what I am towing over the kerb weight of the car - which is what I really don't get!?

 

[BigRed]

A modern horse trailer will be braked.

 

[Baileyhoss]

You have a shogun. Right, under the bonnet there will be a little silver plate - possibly at the back of the engine bay on the right hand side. There are numbers on it. First number, 2000 kg or so, is the weight of the car. 2nd number 5000 kg or so is the total gross permissable train weight. take the 2 numbers away from each other and you are left with your permissible towing weight. for my shogun is was 2800kg.

the other thing you can do is look up your car model in whattowcar.com. It's a caravanning website but has all the towing cars on it and will give you the weights there.

You shouldn't have a problem with 2 horses & an ifor in a lwb shogun.

 

[ecrozier]

I have always been under the impression that under UK law as it stands the official towing capability of the car is whatever is stated in the maufacturer's guidelines....eg my (older model) nissan navara can tow up to 3t. Your shogun will def tow two average horses quite safely, we had a SWB pajero before which was legally rated to tow 2.4t. We were fine with a 15hh arab and 16hh LW/MW Warmblood but swap either for OH's old 16.3hh HW ISH and it was no longer as comfortable....felt too heavy for the car. Have since towed a similar combination (big ISH and small arab in a 510) off my navara and it coped much better but then is rated to tow over 1/2 a ton more!

 

[little_flea]

Thank you, that is really clear and seems to be what everyone is saying. Yet according to the website kindly posted above (and the DVLA phone helpline) and numerous others, it seems it actually does have to do with (recommended) 85% of the kerb weight rather than the towing weight...

SO WHO IS RIGHT? WHY IS THERE EVEN A DISCREPANCY? *weeps*

Taken from the website that Teamkenny1 posted:

# (if a trailer over 750kg pmw) a combination of such a vehicle and trailer where the permissible maximum weight of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and the permissible maximum weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the tractor vehicle.

 

[Baileyhoss]

That quote is for people who passed their test after 1997.

The recommendation of 85% is good guidance and but is mainly due to the fact that the majority of cars shouldn't tow anything heavier than themselves and also as someone mentioned was brought out in the main for caravaners and unbraked trailers.

The exceptions come when you have a car that is designed for towing, like the defender & big 4x4's some of which can tow 3.5t, but weigh no where near that themselves. They have heavy duty gearboxes, 4 wheel drive systems and braking systems to enable them to cope with towing and more importantly stopping heavier weights.

 

[little_flea]

Baileyhoss - thank you so much for that - so basically I could tow one horse with that car (as the load would be less than the kerb weight) as I can only tow 3.5 tonnes - but my boyfriend who can tow heavier can base it on the towing weight of the vehicle instead - so he could tow two horses with the same trailer and car?

Very good news if this is correct!

Thanks for your patience.

 

[Baileyhoss]

ah, well - that's a different story -

If your bf has passed his test before 1997, then yes, he can drive your shogun & trailer & tow 2 horses. or anything up to the permissible towing weight of that car according to the manufacturer.

if you passed your test after 1997, The 3.5t limit for you is very very difficult to balance and i'm afraid it's unlikely you'll do it in a shogun. are your sure your car weighs 1800kg? - that seems light for a shogun. mine was swb and heavier.

anyway car 1800kg + horse 650 + stuff 100 + trailer, most trailers are nearly or just over 1000kg, don't forget people -another 200kg? it would put you over. To be within the law you would not only need to carry a light load, you should actually get your trailer down rated by IW to a permissible max (loaded) weight of 1700kg (if your car does weigh 1800kg) as if you are going by the book it's the gross weight of the trailer you need to consider.

best option would be to sit the test and in the meantime, get bf to co drive you with L plates.

 

[Baileyhoss]

sorry that was assuming you are talking about an ifor williams, which you didn't actually specify. On the trailer drawbar, there should be a plate advising you the weight of your trailer. you need the details off that and the details of your car weights before you can make a firm assessment.

I know some people on here make the combination work with a light/single trailer, possibly downrated trailer, one horse & smaller 4x4 or estate/decent sized car, but it's a game of tweaking numbers and probably easier and cheaper to sit your test.

 

[little_flea]

That is the reason I won't get an Ifor Williams - too heavy. The car is 1800kg + 630kg horse + lightweight trailer 900kg (or a bit less) - leaves me around 200 kg for tack, petrol and people - should just about work... but you are right, it is close. Though compared to what a lot of other people tow without checking...

My other 16.1hh horse weighs 100 kilos less than the big 17hh one so towing him should be easier.

 

[emma69]

Even tho the trailer is braked, it is still advisable to follow the 85% rule, as caravans etc are not alive, and don't move unexpectedly on the roads - if a horse lurches, your car needs to have the ability to correct through engine power, if you are at or near maximum, you are not going to have the power to correct. A trailer heavier than a car can still drag your car off the road e.g. in high winds, even if it is braked. The maximum towing weights given by the manufacturer do not factor in the forces exerted by a large moving animal.

 

[IsabelleJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Even tho the trailer is braked, it is still advisable to follow the 85% rule, as caravans etc are not alive, and don't move unexpectedly on the roads - if a horse lurches, your car needs to have the ability to correct through engine power, if you are at or near maximum, you are not going to have the power to correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, if you want to tow 2 horses, it is almost impossible to follow the 85% rule. I have a Mercedes 4x4, one of the big ones, capable of towing 3.5 tonnes. Kerbweight is about 2.2tonnes, 85% is 1.85 tonnes, trailer weighs over 1 tonne and horse is 700kg!

From what I understand, the 85% limit is meant for cars towing, and is not really applicable to 4x4s, which are built for towing and have heavy duty gearboxes and braking systems to cope with it.

BUT I am a big advocate of having more than enough towing power for the job - I looked around, but wasn't happy towing a 510 with two big horses (around 2.5-2.8t) with less than one of the big (3.5t) 4x4s.

Isabelle

 

[birchave0]

[ QUOTE ]
sorry that was assuming you are talking about an ifor williams, which you didn't actually specify. On the trailer drawbar, there should be a plate advising you the weight of your trailer. you need the details off that and the details of your car weights before you can make a firm assessment.

I know some people on here make the combination work with a light/single trailer, possibly downrated trailer, one horse & smaller 4x4 or estate/decent sized car, but it's a game of tweaking numbers and probably easier and cheaper to sit your test.

[/ QUOTE ]

so..... quick question from a thickie!

My SWB Trooper's Kerb weight is 1990 kg, my trailer's plate says 850 kg, so would that leave say 660 kg which would be enough to carry one 15.2hh???

My trooper is a commercial so has no back seats (just lost some weight there LOL) and my trailer has no middle partion just a breast bar, so more weight saving there too.

I suppose I could take it to the local weigh bridge and see the true weight with 2 people in and fuel/equipment