Transition to collection elementary

[Spiderpig2009]

Hi there,

We have recently moved up to elementary dressage and done a few shows at that level. My horse is big 17.2 wb and getting on at 16, I am only 5’6.

I started BD two years ago, did quest, won the semis within 6 months and got two top 10 placings at nationals in prelim. Did areas and regionals in prelim and novice and got top 10 in all of them.

Any tips for riders like me working against the laws of physics- to aid with collection? I have qualified area festivals for elementary so would like to use the next few months before them to achieve proper collection without my hands and with out the hind legs trailing behind. I am relatively new to dressage- I jumped for many years so riding with long stirrups has been a learning curve - any tips from more experienced dressage riders would be great

We have a GP trainer at the yard I have a lesson every few weeks but cannot afford them every week. I try to work on in between. Finally cracking leg yield and counter canter (in my jumping head it’s wrong as we always changed leads) - rein back is ok and walk to canter is what we always did with our jumping horses.

Just need some tips re a big lazy horse and smaller rider!

Thank you

 

[daffy44]

Firstly, when it says collection in an elementary test, all it really means is enough to execute the movements smoothly, easily and in balance, so dont get hung up on collection, as I find it can make riders take too much of a hold and strangle things trying to find collection, its elementary, true collection is still a way off. You have to ride forwards to achieve collection, not try and strangle the front, obviously I dont know you, and you may well not be doing that at all, but its one of the most common things I see with riders moving up to elementary for the first time.

If your horse is also a bit lazy transitions are your friend, but try to make them from your seat and body, not your hands, do transitions within the pace as well as between paces, but always try to keep the horse soft and thinking forward through its body when you make them, and do the homework your trainer gives you!

 

[Spiderpig2009]

Thank you very much! The comments on my test sheet are engagement and hocks needing to come under, so I guess he needs to come up and higher. He is a big boy and lazy, so I find it’s really hard - if I get him forwards I think he takes bigger strides so the legs go back out, rather than under and up if that makes sense. Do you suggest squeeze legs, seat squeeze then rein squeeze? I am trying to get him in front, but like toothpaste it goes out the back!

 

[daffy44]

I suggest you ask your trainer who knows and sees you both in real life! But if he is pushing his hocks out behind rather than stepping under his body, transitions will certainly help with that, and dont confuse speed with forward, dont ask for steps that are too big an d therefore push him out of balance and rhythm.

I can only give general advice because I dont know you or your horse, you need your real life trainer to help you more than any person online who doesnt know you both.

 

[Spiderpig2009]

I wish I could have a trainer every time I ride but unfortunately cannot afford the privilege. Every horse is different I get that, but I imagine there are similar signals that you give to create that energy. Having come from a jumping background it is a different feeling to dressage - as a relative newbie I just wanted some tips from more experienced people on dressage - not just my trainer.

With the forward bit- his medium trot apparently has legs out behind so I must be doing something wrong on this- I try and not hammer too much here because he is older and has some stiffness there. It is the bringing up rather than out that I need to learn about. We always rode jumping horses in a soft round frame, but this dressage is a different set of muscles! It’s very tiring

 

[Wizpopagain]

Collection can take a long time to be really ‘collected’ and as has been said, at elementary, you only need enough collection to be able to execute the movements smoothly and in balance. With a bigger horse, especially if he is a bit older, developing more suppleness over his back whilst encouraging the hind legs to carry more weight, and therefore becoming more balanced, is what you are aiming foe. Lots of transitions, making sure he understands the half halt from your seat and legs whilst your hands remain soft and allowing. Lateral work - leg yield, shoulder in on circles and straight lines should encourage him to use his hocks more to step under and carry more weight behind. It’s going to be a work in progress for some time but you will make progress - good luck in your training!

 

[Spiderpig2009]

Collection can take a long time to be really ‘collected’ and as has been said, at elementary, you only need enough collection to be able to execute the movements smoothly and in balance. With a bigger horse, especially if he is a bit older, developing more suppleness over his back whilst encouraging the hind legs to carry more weight, and therefore becoming more balanced, is what you are aiming foe. Lots of transitions, making sure he understands the half halt from your seat and legs whilst your hands remain soft and allowing. Lateral work - leg yield, shoulder in on circles and straight lines should encourage him to use his hocks more to step under and carry more weight behind. It’s going to be a work in progress for some time but you will make progress - good luck in your training!

Thank you - I have done 4 tests now with scores from 69-65% they are all saying the same thing- they want the poll higher and legs under.

I do all the above - are there any exercises that help particularly? If I am completely honest I do think my half halts need improvement- I spent most of my riding life in a half seat with short stirrups . I don’t think my horse really feels my seat weight as he is big and I am an average woman. It’s probably lots of those that will have him more how he needs to be.

Any exercises really welcomed that I can work on

 

[millitiger]

Something that could help is some schoolmaster lessons.
Once you have sat on the right feeling, it should be easier to understand what you are looking for on your horse.

I would add, judges will always comment on why you didn't get a 10- so you may always get comments about more connection, more engagement, more hocks under etc. even if you're getting 75%.
It isn't necessarily something you can fix and it goes away, you incrementally improve it.

 

[St Nicnaclaus]

Ha I am in same boat with poll up higher and hinds needing to come under. Mine was ridden by pros who could "hide" things. I am doing strengthening back end hacking up and down hills. Also circle spirals in and out to get hind legs under. Lots of work on straightness too so his 1/4's stay under him. Loads of correct transitions. It's a long game.
Reformer Pilates focused on riding really helps me too for my core strength.

 

[tristars]

Start trying in walk riding your your horse up in front, with minimal contact and without grinding in the saddle, ask softly with your legs, to get the feel and let your horse know that he can come up, I do this, when they learn this walk the trot out of this walk can be very nicely balanced

I'd give him some good canter work in the open. Use that arxse end get it muscled, he is going long so build the power then do shoulder in to create a little collection

Training In opposition ie, good long canter work, to get more fitness, less lazy then use that in in the confines of an arena to modify the power into carrying

 

[Matafleur]

Really good suggestions and comments here. One thing that really helped my horse to learn to sit a bit was really good halts, just walking and halting properly with the hindlegs under correctly. Then every time you exit the halt, make sure the hindlegs step first. It's very basic but is great for developing them. Try to be very disciplined about it every time.

I do lots of walk/halt after my initial walk stretch, I don't move up to trot until he is doing them nicely.

 

[j1ffy]

Not much to add as lots of great suggestions. If you're scoring 65-69% when you have just moved up to Elementary for the first time, you're doing really well. The 'more engagement / hindlegs more under' is pretty standard and a lot will simply come from consistent work, strengthening and suppling.

Lots of transitions, being disciplined about your horse's responsiveness to aids, and suppling work both ridden and in-hand will all help. Unfortunately sometimes it's about slow and steady improvement rather than a silver bullet!

 

[daffy44]

Collection and engagement can not be achieved by doing just a few specific exercises and then collection just appears, there is no magic wand, its a very long journey where ideally the horse makes steady progress as it goes up through the levels. Its hard work for the horse, it requires muscular development, and the horse to alter both posture and balance, so its slow, people have offered lots of constructive exercises, which is brilliant, but there are other things to consider.

Firstly, is the horse capable of anymore collection and engagement than you are currently getting? Is there a low level physical issue that may hinder the progress? Then the mechanics of the horse, some horses push with their hocks out behind them, if thats the case the medium/extended trot will always be affected to some degree, its very hard, to change those sort of natural mechanics, especially with an older horse, and it may not be fair to try.

You then have to ask yourself if you are inadvertently riding in such a way that is causing some of the issues, if you are, changing your position/riding style is potentially one of the easiest fixes.

All these things are impossible to answer except by someone who actually sees you and the horse working together in real life, which is why your trainer is best placed to help you, but they are all things to consider.

 

[Spiderpig2009]

Not much to add as lots of great suggestions. If you're scoring 65-69% when you have just moved up to Elementary for the first time, you're doing really well. The 'more engagement / hindlegs more under' is pretty standard and a lot will simply come from consistent work, strengthening and suppling.

Lots of transitions, being disciplined about your horse's responsiveness to aids, and suppling work both ridden and in-hand will all help. Unfortunately sometimes it's about slow and steady improvement rather than a silver bullet!

Not much to add as lots of great suggestions. If you're scoring 65-69% when you have just moved up to Elementary for the first time, you're doing really well. The 'more engagement / hindlegs more under' is pretty standard and a lot will simply come from consistent work, strengthening and suppling.

Lots of transitions, being disciplined about your horse's responsiveness to aids, and suppling work both ridden and in-hand will all help. Unfortunately sometimes it's about slow and steady improvement rather than a silver bullet!

Thank you - I just thought I am being super useless and not what the judges are after! We have been solid high scorers over the below levels but this shift upwards leaves me a bit not knowing about what they are after. Having said that even things like counter canter which in my brain feel very wrong, have really improved so there are positives - I think we must actually be improving there

 

[Spiderpig2009]

Collection and engagement can not be achieved by doing just a few specific exercises and then collection just appears, there is no magic wand, its a very long journey where ideally the horse makes steady progress as it goes up through the levels. Its hard work for the horse, it requires muscular development, and the horse to alter both posture and balance, so its slow, people have offered lots of constructive exercises, which is brilliant, but there are other things to consider.

Firstly, is the horse capable of anymore collection and engagement than you are currently getting? Is there a low level physical issue that may hinder the progress? Then the mechanics of the horse, some horses push with their hocks out behind them, if thats the case the medium/extended trot will always be affected to some degree, its very hard, to change those sort of natural mechanics, especially with an older horse, and it may not be fair to try.

You then have to ask yourself if you are inadvertently riding in such a way that is causing some of the issues, if you are, changing your position/riding style is potentially one of the easiest fixes.

All these things are impossible to answer except by someone who actually sees you and the horse working together in real life, which is why your trainer is best placed to help you, but they are all things to consider.

Oh yes absolutely- he is 16 and has some arthritis in his hocks, he also has a twisted pelvis since age 5 when he apparently fell over a jump. It hasn’t caused him any issues to date but he does have physio every three months and his hocks are medicated now.
The medium trot on one rein is definitely affected, so I try to work with what we have and not overdo it. I do leg yield and shoulder in on hacks and actually these are getting better as well.

My trainer said we are doing well for being new at this level - it may be hard to understand but collection is really new to me as it’s completely different to the 40 odd years of riding so far!

 

[Spiderpig2009]

Anyway everybody loves a photo so this is us at our first elementary show! Ignore my position this is after a medium canter and he zoomed off a bit and we were struggling coming back down to Earth . We won this class so super chuffed. Core being a bit of a weakness on this occasion! I can sit on my bottom usually

 

[Orangina]

Anyway everybody loves a photo so this is us at our first elementary show! Ignore my position this is after a medium canter and he zoomed off a bit and we were struggling coming back down to Earth . We won this class so super chuffed. Core being a bit of a weakness on this occasion! I can sit on my bottom usually

He looks lovely but looks like he is lacking a lot of muscle behind the saddle. Is he lacking topline under the saddle too?

 

[Spiderpig2009]

He looks lovely but looks like he is lacking a lot of muscle behind the saddle. Is he lacking topline under the saddle too?

I don’t think you have read the post - he broke his pelvis aged 5. The question was around collection

 

[Orangina]

I don’t think you have read the post - he broke his pelvis aged 5. The question was around collection

I've read the question, I was asking if he was lacking topline over his whole back?

 

[Spiderpig2009]

Hi is a 16 year old horse who broke his pelvis when he was 5. I would expect some asymmetry his disability doesn’t stop him

I broke my right leg when I was 35 and I am very lacking in muscle but I am ok- it does have a habit of wiggling around though when I ride

 

[Orangina]

Hi is a 16 year old horse who broke his pelvis when he was 5. I would expect some asymmetry

How unkind and nasty to laugh.
I was asking a question to try and educate myself further as I am constantly trying to learn and improve my knowledge. Sorry you feel the need to belittle people trying to improve themselves

 

[Spiderpig2009]

How unkind and nasty to laugh.
I was asking a question to try and educate myself further as I am constantly trying to learn and improve my knowledge. Sorry you feel the need to belittle people trying to improve themselves

Ahh I am sorry that wasn’t my intention. I am just trying to learn myself as new to dressage

Many horses are lacking in all sorts of things - big horses particularly can look a bit aged they look worse than smaller ones. Particularly as you reduce the amount of work they are doing- I only ride him every other day and generally just have fun

 

[Orangina]

Ahh I am sorry that wasn’t my intention. I am just trying to learn myself as new to dressage

Many horses are lacking in all sorts of things - big horses particularly can look a bit aged they look worse than smaller ones. Particularly as you reduce the amount of work they are doing- I only ride him every other day and generally just have fun

Thank you. I just use threads like these to try and educate myself further. My intention was then to ask more experience people if a lack of topline if he has one actoss his whole back(caused by his injury) would make it a struggle to get further collection. I should probably just put everything in a single post so people don't get the wrong end of the stick!

 

[Spiderpig2009]

Thank you. I just use threads like these to try and educate myself further. My intention was then to ask more experience people if a lack of topline if he has one actoss his whole back(caused by his injury) would make it a struggle to get further collection. I should probably just put everything in a single post so people don't get the wrong end of the stick!

No worries at all it’s all a learning curve.

He hasn’t really done much (me neither) in collection yet - I think as you train and do more over time these things build up. A bit like weight lifters train their muscles it takes time. We have only just started this level so it’s never perfect from the beginning

 

[SEL]

He is a big horse! I've got a much smaller cob here who is very talented but naturally inclined to pull, not push. He was at his best in terms of sitting behind back in the spring when I was doing lots of fast riding with hills. I recently saw a GP rider on Insta showing a clip of her trotting up hills saying how much fitter & more powerful the horse had got since she introduced it.

Not that we all have useful hills to ride up!