Transporting a mare WITHOUT her foal?

[zezere]

Hello all.

I am considering to buy a mare. The mare has a 5 month old foal. The owner is not going to wean the foal, because she has no facilities or time to do that. She wants someone to buy the mare and transport her away from the foal, basically. I can already see the risk with that, but I myself have very little experience with foals, weaning, transporting mares with or without foals, and generally buying horses, so I was hoping you would share your experiences and opinions with me.

My questions are:
- what are _all_ possible risks when transporting a mare and separating her from a foal at the same time?
- what are possible solutions (like sedating for example) and the risks associated with those solutions (sedating might be dangerous, for example)?
- can the risks be captured somehow in the contract with the owner, to insure myself against ending up with a physically or psychologically ruined horse?
- generally, what would you advice regarding the contract and the whole situation?

A little bit more detail about the situation:
It's a thoroughbred mare, at the moment she is still suckling her foal and has become quite thin after foaling (body condition 3). Otherwise she is a healthy and alert horse, active, polite, owner says it isn't too difficult to load her to a trailer. It takes me 3 hours to drive to her current location, driving at normal speed (without pulling a trailer with a horse). By the way, I am not going to transport her myself, I think it's too risky. Owner says she knows a company that would do it. The mare lives outside 24/7 and would continue to do so at my place (there is a shelter), if I bought her.

 

[zezere]

Update.

I offered to buy the mare together with the foal. The owner thought about it and agreed, but set the price of the foal higher than the mare herself, and that was too expensive for me.

Then, due to this tricky situation, I negotiated mare's price a bit down, but eventually I will have to accept all the risks of anything going wrong during or after her transportation.

I am not sure if this deal is good, because I have no experience with transporting a freshly separated mare. Has anyone done this or seen it happen?

 

[FlyingCircus]

Wouldn't do it myself. Doesn't seem at all fair on the horses involved and I'm no fluffy pony patter!

I'd look elsewhere or offer to take mare and foal then wean foal properly before sending it back. But that really depends how much you want the mare.

 

[SOS]

If you are inexperienced with ‘foals, weaning, transporting mares with or without foals and generally buying horses’ Id suggest an out of work, poor condition mare with a foal at foot is seriously not the way forward.

You say both together are more expensive, do you realise it will cost ££££s in livery, vet, Farrier, training etc to get the foal to a rideable age?

I’d strongly suggest from this post alone you looked at horses closer to home. If you are capable of bringing a horse back into work there are many many horses being sold from the field cheap that are not a 3 hour trip away.

FWIW as well I’m sure the seller is more than happy to sell you the mare and foal and arrange transport - it’s completely in their interest and they will be laughing all the way to the bank!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

No reputable transporter will take a mare whose foal has been force weaned (the term for removing a mare or foal without drying up mare or doing slow separation), not till she's had 10 days to 2 weeks to dry her milk up. Not unless a vet has given opinion or it's an emergency.
Can the owner not even attempt this v soon?

 

[Bernster]

Sounds like a sad and sorry sitatuion and one likely to be a mess to deal with. Is this really a wise option for you OP?

 

[be positive]

I would reconsider the whole situation, from what you have posted you are not experienced enough to take on this mare even without the complications, put on your sensible head, move on and find a better option that will be more suitable in every way, from the sound of things the owner is breeding without any thought to the future and while you may feel sorry for the mare and want to help her you may end up with numerous issues that are not your fault and could prove expensive even with the reduced price, leave her to sort out her own mess.

 

[Trouper]

What a revolting owner - agree with @be positive - leave the owner to sort out her own mess. You will only end up with a mare physically and psychologically damaged by the experience and that is no way to start. If, however, you really love her, offer the owner half what she is asking to take them both - then walk away if the answer is No, saying that she can always come back to you if she changes her mind. I bet - given we are entering winter - she will. Then get some good help and advice in gently and naturally weaning the foal so you end up with two animals that are not damaged by the process. Building the mare up physically is the easy bit but please do not buy her alone and separate her from her foal in this barbaric and unnatural way. It won't end well.

 

[meleeka]

I bought a mare that had been transported in this way and the foal force weaned. A friend bought her from a sale and when she arrived at mine she still had milk. She was very unsettled for quite a while and it struck me at the time that this was a very cruel way of weaning a foal.

 

[little_critter]

Do you know why the mare was bred from? Mares are sometimes put in foal when they can no longer be ridden. Do you know that this mare is suitable for riding?
But I would agree with the posts above that you sound novice from your posts and buying an unknown (I assume you've not ridden this mare?) mare and foal is really not a sensible way to start horse ownership.

 

[Shilasdair]

Here are my thoughts;
1. 5 months old is too young to wean.
2. This is a particularly traumatic way to wean.
3. The mare shouldn't be in poor condition if she is getting enough nutrition (if not, why not?)
4. With respect, you don't sound very confident or experienced - and this is setting yourself up to fail.

Find a riding horse, fit and in work, closer to home, and you'll have a much happier time.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Why would any-one want to encourage this 'breeder' by buying a mare whose foal has been force weaned? Would you buy from a puppy farm? This is a morally similar practice, please don't encourage it!

 

[Identityincrisis]

I knew a mare who had had her first foal force weaned in this way, she was only 3 herself, she suffered with terrible separation anxiety, I didn't know her before weaning so she may have been this way anyway but it always struck me as a harsh way of doing it

 

[Arzada]

Update.

I am not sure if this deal is good, because I have no experience with transporting a freshly separated mare. Has anyone done this or seen it happen?

It's not a good deal. It's cruel. I would never even consider it.

 

[eggs]

I have bought unweaned foals before and the owner has transported the mare and foal to me. Unloaded both (foals have always been at least 7 months old though), foal had last drink, mare given some ACP and loaded shortly afterwards and driven back home. I have always had a companion weaned foal at the same time so the new foal has company right from the start. This however is not quite the scenario you are describing. If the owner has neither the facilities nor the inclination to wean their own foal I would ask why they bred one in the first place.

If I were you I would look for a more suitable horse

 

[Littlebear]

Although its not the ideal situation i have seen foals force weaned like this, mare walked away and turned out with no stress. I am sure there is stress to some but some mares will happily walk away, if the foal is left with other companion babies they will carry on as usual also. The ONLY stress i have really seen with my own eyes was when the babies were then taken into stabling after, at that point 2 coped and the 3rd was incredibly stressed.
Of course its not what happens in an ideal world but i have seen this happen with no major issue.

 

[sport horse]

I have done it once to help a friend with an orphan foal. I took my mare and foal (it was 6 months old so old enough to wean) left foal with their orphan so it had company, brought mare home and dried her off. Both were fine - maybe not the perfect way to do it but sometimes you have to do what you have to do to make the best of a bad job.

Just remember., if you do do it, youmust ensure that the mare dries up (ie stops producing milk) properly. It will take a couple of weeks of basic diet and exercise.

 

[Shilasdair]

You wouldn't find it acceptable to take two children away from their mothers early weaning age and shut them in a room together, so I wonder why we think that's ok with horses.
Horses need the guidance of an adult herd a long way past the age where they will survive weaning onto hay/feed.

 

[Gloi]

I bought a mare like this, the only difference being the foal was 18 months old. The mare had an awful lot of milk and it took a couple of weeks to dry up. Except for that we had no problems.

 

[Goldenstar]

When we weaned our foals we settled them with a nanny horse or horses who was in the field with the mum and foal.
We gradually got the foal used to mum leaving for short times mum was fed something yummy and stabled gradually increasing the time .
Them one day we would load mum straight up and took her away to dry off at a livery yard .
She stayed away quite a while .
We never had any problems with the foal who was left behind .
They just stayed with their horse friend in the field .

 

[Lois Lame]

Early weaning of foals is something that gets my blood up. A lot of people here in Australia are weaning foals at 4 months of age, claiming all sorts of things.

I picked up a book at the library about 15 years ago, written by a lady vet. It claimed that mare's milk is little better than water by the time her foal is 4 months of age. Immediately I stopped reading because I was so angry. I am surprised that that book made its way back to the library in one piece.

Hopefully this practise of early weaning has not started in the UK.

 

[Leo Walker]

I've done it. Same age foal as well. The mare loaded and traveled fine and didnt even call for the foal. I was careful to keep her on a very basic diet of just hay for a few days and walked her out in hand to help her dry up. Its not how I would do things, but sometimes you are at the mercy of other people and circumstances.

 

[doodle]

We did it at a yard i worked although from memory foal was a bit older. Foal was already size of mum, mum was 11hh sec a and dad a fresian! Loaded mum who walked away and literally never looked back. Travelled without a peep and had no issues settling in new home. Foal was left in stable with a buddy. She shouted twice then settled to eating. Foal is now independant 14hh.

So it wasnt ideal but circumstances led to having done it this way.

 

[zezere]

Thank you all, that definitely helps me understand the situation better.

I will post an update now, and comments to some of your questions.

So, update.

I offered a lower price, due to the risk that I would be taking. The owner eventually agreed to it. My condition was that I would be present during loading (the owner said she would do the loading part herself), and if the mare goes in the trailer well, then I buy her. If she doesn't, then I would wait for her to be weaned. After all, if she refuses to go in the trailer, the owner will not have another option but to wean.

The owner says that she tried to take the mare further away from the foal and she was okay, the foal also did not miss his mum. Well, some of you mentioned that some mares might be okay, it really depends. I guess I will see it for myself soon....

The foal will be 6 months old now, by the way.

Do you know why the mare was bred from? Mares are sometimes put in foal when they can no longer be ridden. Do you know that this mare is suitable for riding?

That is indeed another risk and another reason why she was cheap, the mare hasn't been ridden for a year, and right now in her thin condition definitely not suitable for riding. However, breeding from her is quite logical, she has good pedigree, and even though I myself am not enthusiastic about breeding, but NOT breeding this mare seems like a waste. So, even if I am unlucky and she has a problem, I can at least breed her, or sell to a breeder at some loss. But if I am lucky, she is going to be a gorgeous horse.

The mare shouldn't be in poor condition if she is getting enough nutrition (if not, why not?)

She is a 3/4 thoroughbred, so she isn't an easy keeper by definition, besides at the place she is currently at, it doesn't look like her nutrition is good, and she probably isn't getting extra feed. On top of that, it's pretty cold by now, she lives outside, there is no shelter, and staying warm in this weather also requires energy. So I am not surprised that she is thin...

Why would any-one want to encourage this 'breeder' by buying a mare whose foal has been force weaned? Would you buy from a puppy farm? This is a morally similar practice, please don't encourage it!

It's not a "breeder", it's a person who isn't in a favourable situation herself right now, so it's kind of understandable.

Just remember., if you do do it, you must ensure that the mare dries up (ie stops producing milk) properly. It will take a couple of weeks of basic diet and exercise.

Thank you all who mentioned about drying up! I can't believe I didn't know this. I started doing as much research as I can on the topic.

Its not how I would do things, but sometimes you are at the mercy of other people and circumstances.

Yep.. circumstances. That is why I was ready to buy a horse in autumn, that seems to be the season of "circumstances" . I was scanning the market since spring, but in spring and summer almost all horses on sale had good photos, videos of riding and were mostly coming from professionals. And the prices were far from what I could afford. In autumn, however, the "not so perfect" horses started popping up Horses that needed to go fast. Their prices were falling as you were just sitting and watching the screen Often those horses come from women who have had their own babies recently.

By the way, for those who say that the cost of keeping horses very quickly surpasses the price of buying them. Usually it's true, but I keep horses in my own place, I have my own pastures, hay comes for free, hooves I trim myself (done some courses on that). So the only cost is the cost of oats, alfalfa/sugarbeet pellets, linseed oil, vaccines and dewormers. And sometimes some branded concentrates and supplements. Overall, really cheap. If I had my 2 horses at a local stable, which is not even the most expensive in the country, I would have spent the cost of this mare I'm talking about in just four months.

 

[Chinchilla]

When my mare was brought home she was also being taken away from her foal like this , who was six months old at the time, although they had been kept away from each other with the colt in a stable during the day and separated by a fencelike overnight. Diva (my mare) loaded happily away from her baby, but she did call and got quite fretful (or what passes for quite fretful for her anyway) on the journey home though and untied herself by pulling back - I guess trying to look round for her foal.
We retied her the first two times but found going into the back unsettled her more so in the end the long rope was replaced with a short one (in case of emergency but so she couldn't get it caught/tangled on anything) and she then travelled quietly untied.
It was September and the grass was lush so to dry her up she was muzzled and walked in hand/handled as much as possible to keep her off the grass, it took about two weeks I think and she settled quite quickly and happily at home.

 

[SpottyTB]

That's how we weaned my mare/foal.

Foal stayed at my yard with my geldings, he went into the stable with a pile of hay and company.. mare got loaded straight up onto the trailer and we drove. She was fine, called three times and as soon as he was out of ear shot, she started to eat her hay.

Neither mare or foal suffered from this process.

Mare went out onto a grass paddock - no hard feed or extras and out 24/7 to walk around, she dried up straight away with no problems.

 

[AmyMay]

Thanks for the update OP. A number of things stick out to me, but two in particular.

‘By definition’ actually TB’s aren’t particularly bad doers. I’ve owned one full and one part. Both prone to being fat little b&ggers. I have a number living locally who are retired, roughed off, un-rugged living out and are as fat as mud.

Also, if the mare has any issues that prevent her from either thriving or being ridden please don’t be under the misconception that she’ll do as a brood mare - she won’t (and certainly shouldn’t be considered as such).

 

[CMcC]

Zezere I would like to take issue with a couple of things in your update post.
1. ”It is a waste NOT to breed from this mare” a poor justification for irresponsible breeding. I have a very nice Connemara mare, with excellent breeding and temperament I won’t be breeding from her because there are quite enough ponies in the world without adding another. It also sounds like the breeder of this foal hasn’t bred with a specific market/outcome in mind. And has no facilities or time to wean foal!
2. Don’t trim your own horses feet because you have done a couple of courses. This is a job for a properly qualified professional.
3. What about costs of veterinary emergency or treating ongoing health problem. Horses are never cheap.
Rant over.

 

[Chinchilla]

Zezere I would like to take issue with a couple of things in your update post.
1. ”It is a waste NOT to breed from this mare” a poor justification for irresponsible breeding. I have a very nice Connemara mare, with excellent breeding and temperament I won’t be breeding from her because there are quite enough ponies in the world without adding another. It also sounds like the breeder of this foal hasn’t bred with a specific market/outcome in mind. And has no facilities or time to wean foal!
2. Don’t trim your own horses feet because you have done a couple of courses. This is a job for a properly qualified professional.
3. What about costs of veterinary emergency or treating ongoing health problem. Horses are never cheap.
Rant over.

Interestingly enough the people I got my mare off had had the same thought process re. Saving money on getting hooves done because she was only a broodmare.... hooves are only really now starting to look properly good, and that'safter three years of regular six weekly trims because they'd become so flat and splayed🤦 it's really not something you can skimp on or botch yourself.

 

[Shilasdair]

The more I read, the more concerned I am.
It sounds to me as though you can't afford this horse, and haven't really got the knowledge to care for her properly. Even putting a horse to sleep and disposing of it costs close to £1k in my experience.
And breeding from a 3/4 Tb if it proves unsuitable/unsound for ridden work is exactly why there are so many crap horses out there.

Please, OP, reconsider and buy a sensible cob or native type for you to have fun on with minimal horse care needs (and get a farrier to trim the feet).