Treating soft feet - doing more harm than good?

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cyberhorse

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On the advice from our farrier I have started treating my KWPN for soft feet. He has had his feet cleaned and sprayed with iodine since the end of last summer anyhow when he seemed to have a bit of thrush starting in the crevice between the heel bulbs. I had just been doing a maintainance program (spraying with iodine weekly) and there has been no smell or "footiness" since. Now that I am back to spraying his feet daily he has become footy and very grumpy about having his feet picked out. I have also seen him biting at his heels as if they are irritated. So am I doing more harm than good with the topical treatments when I had a horse not bothered by his feet and sound when I just sprayed weekly? Last week I changed the iodine for keratex hoof solution and he is still no happier with that.

He has been put on Kevin Bacon hoof supplement and limestone powder in his feed to try to firm up his feet. It is whether I cut down the frequency of topical treatment, change the treatment or carry on regardless. Now at the point where I will be calling the vet out for an second opinion (they were the ones that prescribed the iodine last summer and they said daily first week, every other day second week and then weekly for maintenance).
 
TRy useing canstan the human antithrush cream to see if that helps
Sudocrem also helps
Sometimes you need oral antibiotics to shift thrush have a word with the vet.
 
Does he have soft feet overall or just some thrush in his frog? Soft feet in general, especially if you can press in his soles with your fingers or thumbs, are usually a dietary issue and/or a symptom of a metabolic illness like insulin resistance.
 
How much walking does your horse do ? and over what type of ground ?

Movement is what hardens the soles of the feet and ensures a healthy frog as well as a good diet.
 
His soles are not so soft you can indent them with your finger, there is a very mild scraping indent from the hoof pick which I think is more than I used to see when picking his feet out, but this is fractional.

He does a lot of exercise, but I am aware this is mostly on prepared surfaces which is not ideal -indoor school, sand menage, lunging circle (sand) earth in the horse walker. He walks from where he is stabled daily on tarmac to these facilities but you are looking at 5 min there and back. I can't hack during the week at the moment as I can't get there during daylight hours and he absolutely won't hack if it is dusky. He also won't hack with someone else (with or without company) he plants/spins/rears so I'd never get anyone willing to attempt it either he just decided he'd hack with me after I'd had him for a while. Trying to use the menage when it is dry enough as it is harder.
 
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He is on 2 buckets a day and nets. He has 2x beet, 1x cooked barley (in winter when in), 1x molly, 2xchop, 1x bran. In tea he has supplements - garlic, linseed oil, cod liver oil, soya oil, yesac, red cell and cortaflex. He also now has been started on Kevin Bacon hoof formula and limestone powder but as this has only been a week I would not expect any improvement from this yet.
 
cyberhorse said:
He is on 2 buckets a day and nets. He has 2x beet, 1x cooked barley (in winter when in), 1x molly, 2xchop, 1x bran. In tea he has supplements - garlic, linseed oil, cod liver oil, soya oil, yesac, red cell and cortaflex. He also now has been started on Kevin Bacon hoof formula and limestone powder but as this has only been a week I would not expect any improvement from this yet.
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I'd get rid of all the cereal and sugar in this diet, you'll never have decent feet no matter what supliments you feed.
 
You would only need to use the iodine or similar daily(I use purple spray) if your horse actually has a bad case of thrush, I'm not clear what impact using it daily would have on soft feet?? As others have said it's mainly diet and the right surfaces that will harden his feet. The sand surfaces are very good for horses without shoes, they clean them up nicely as well don't they!
 
Op, I am also wondering why he has red cell? Excess iron can affect absorption of other minerals.
I suggest you go through his diet and check if he still needs everything. Too much of a good thing can often cause more problems than too little.
I check through diets regularly these days as I've been in the position of suddenly realizing I didn't know anymore why I was feeding something or why I stopped something.

ps. Copper deficiency can lead to anaemia and has been linked to recurrent thrush. Obviously I'm not saying you should feed copper just giving an example.
 
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cyberhorse said:
He is on 2 buckets a day and nets. He has 2x beet, 1x cooked barley (in winter when in), 1x molly, 2xchop, 1x bran. In tea he has supplements - garlic, linseed oil, cod liver oil, soya oil, yesac, red cell and cortaflex. He also now has been started on Kevin Bacon hoof formula and limestone powder but as this has only been a week I would not expect any improvement from this yet.
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Definitely get rid of the barley immediately, it has been shown to be digested wrongly by the horse. If you need oomph oats are much better tolerated, but try for more oil and chaff and hya/haylage (no carbs) first.

Is the "molly" molassed chaff? I'd cut that out two and not feed anything with added molasses or molglo (same thing).

I doubt if he needs calcium (limestone) unless your area is very acid or very lacking in it but you can't safely feed bran without it. He's much more likely to be short of copper to help him use insulin properly. Do you know if you are in an area high in iron, molybdenum or manganese? If so, he could well be short of copper.
 
Sugar free sweeties and a large glass of your favorite tipple if you finish!

amandap said:
You need to ask if he needs all that extra feed.
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OK just to give the full picture he is on a competition yard and is probably on the lowest calorie bucket of a lot of the horses. He is a showjumper who does a considerable amount of work and competes at least once a fortnight. At home he obviously does work during the week to keep him fit and supple. Unfortunately he is a poor doer and has always been prone to being underweight.

His previous owner had him on 2 scoops of barley rings but I found this heating and when I cut it down to half a scoop the spooky nutty behavior stopped. I tried to replace it with mug of oil in each bucket, but he was still struggling to maintain his weight. Our vet advised the cooked barley as a good non-heating bulky alternative and he is now a normal weight (unless you are a showing person at which point he is horrendously skinny - WH judge at the last show before we gave up as I don't do fat horses). He does not have it in spring/summer when he is on turn out and the grass is good. If there is a better "non-heating" alternative then please let me know...

As far as I was aware sugar beet was the left overs after the sugar has been extracted and is one of the better bulk feeds in terms of being high in fibre and non-heating. The molly we add to mix with his chop so he'll actually eat it TBH or the chop just gets thrown out on the floor. Bran I was always told is a necessary component of a bulky bucket to aid digestion?

The limestone is what the farrier has suggested to us and a few on the yard as he feels they are deficient in our area. I also looked at the cooked barley which could reduce calcium by effecting the potassium/ca balance (same as bran does) hence this does make sense and if I can't replace the barley and need to continue with bran it will have to stay.

Cortaflex and oils have been added on recommendation of the YO given his age and job. If I take him off the cortaflex I do notice that he gets windgalls in his hind legs, if I take him off oils then I notice his knees click (so I feel it is worth him staying on them). If I take him off the garlic he comes out occasionally with filled legs (go down after 5 min of exercise), I do not want to bandage as I am aware this can cause lymphatic damage and make things worse in the long run. However I'll probably put up with this "issue" now I have looked at the gut problems which I was not aware of (thanks amandaap). At the end of the day his legs don't bother him they just horrify me.

The iron was following vet's advice last summer when they thought he probably slightly anaemic, so this could be copper instead??? Most of the horses are on red cell daily so I would not think we have high iron in our area but will look into this. He was on daily for a fortnight and then they just said weekly. Might try withdrawing this now and see if he is OK. His new hoof supplement contains copper, zinc, cobalt and iodine.

He gets no sugary sweets/treats/licks etc...

He has been on this feed (and in the past more feed) at this yard for 7 years and has not had foot problems before so if I had to point the finger it would be squarely at the cooked barley, he started on this in July when the fields were poor and they were on haylage in the field. At a total loss for a non-heating alternative though - (help with this would be appreciated). It started with thrush in his heels in September which we got rid of, but I feel it has not gone away despite the fact you can't smell it. The softness is his frogs and heels which are also a bit ragged in appearance (you have to really try with a hoof pick to mark his soles) - why I am still treating this as thrush. Vet is coming out next week so I'll be getting her to take a look at the feet, and maybe see if he needs blood testing in case he has become insulin resistant with age?
 
I'm afraid I'm not a diet expert. My lot don't work hard so don't have low energy under weight problems. Is the beet unmolassed? I personally like micronized linseed for omegas, some protein, copper and coat and skin condition. One of mine has stopped clicking in his hock since being on it so it can help with stiffness/joints as well. If the hind gut is upset horses can have problems fermenting forage so can have weight problems despite being fed loads of extra feed. Have a read here and also the blog, there's lots of diet related hoof stuff.
http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/10/managing-your-microbes-or-how-to.html
Iron deficiency is I believe quite uncommon but as you say if all the horses are on red cell there may be a problem in that area. Water often has iron in it too.

That's very interesting about his legs filling when off the garlic. Is he stabled a lot being in hard work? I think this will be one reason for the 'filling' if he is.

Typically salt and magnesium are short in diets and copper and zinc deficiency is fairly common too but not universal.

Here is some info on thrush you might find useful. Thrush definitely doesn't always smell and if his frogs are raggy, bulbs squishy or eaten and the central cleft is deep I'd definitely treat. http://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_MoreTopics.html

Hope this is some use, I don't know what feed to suggest I'm afraid but hopefully someone will.
 
Any chance of seeing photos of his feet ?
From what I have read it seems your horse is being fed all and sundry in the nicest possible way. We are all guilty of wanting to do the best for our horses and can end up pumping then with this supplement or the other because Fred Jones recommended this and Annie Apple recommended that. It is very easy to cause more problems with magical supplements and hoof dressings then we realise.

I know as I have been there already – it is very easy to get carried away and inadvertently mess up your horse. You can spend a fortune getting your pasture and hay tested until the cows come home but we are dealing with far too many variables in quality etc it is an impossible task to keep on top of.

The best thing to do is to start simple. Start with the simple sponge and then gradually add the toppings so to speak. Cut out all of the fancy supplements and dressings and start again slowly. Don’t worry your horse will not fall apart at the seams.

1. make sure your horse has hay, water and adlib access to a mineral AND salt lick.
2. leave the feet free of dressings. Yes you can clean them and if you have thrush then use Milton fluid to start with.
3. make sure your horse is able to move over different terrain ridden or not.

Wait and see - about a month and see how his feet and body respond.
 
cyberhorse said:
The iron was following vet's advice last summer when they thought he probably slightly anaemic, so this could be copper instead??? Most of the horses are on red cell daily so I would not think we have high iron in our area but will look into this.
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Yes. Copper deficiency can also cause anaemia, in which case treatment with iron is the last thing he needs, as a primary cause of copper deficiency is excess iron. What a nightmare, eh?
 
cyberhorse said:
So am I doing more harm than good with the topical treatments when I had a horse not bothered by his feet and sound when I just sprayed weekly? Last week I changed the iodine for keratex hoof solution and he is still no happier with that.

He has been put on Kevin Bacon hoof supplement and limestone powder in his feed to try to firm up his feet. It is whether I cut down the frequency of topical treatment, change the treatment or carry on regardless. QUOTE]

I have learnt that some harsh treatments can kill off the surface of the frog which actually encourages the thrush to grow as it feeds off the the dead tissue. I once tried treating my boys soles with Keratex hardener and was advised by my EP to paint it on his frogs as well, but he definitely was more sore doing that.
I once moved him to a new yard where he took several weeks to settle enough for me to take a good look at his feet and lo and behold, the thrush was better - better I think for being left alone.
I have also found that when I scrape out every last bit of mud from the crevices, the black sooty signs of thrush appear again so now I am being a lot more gentle with cleaning.
The best treatment I have found has already been mentioned - Canestan - human thrush treatment which is basically clotrimazole. Mix with antibiotic cream on a 50/50 basis, it's called Pete's goo because Pete Ramey invented it. You can get clot..... over the counter cheaply and I would imagine antiseptic is the same as americans antibiotic cream so you could mix with Savlon. Just a couple of applications of this smeared on and the black stuff has gone.
As far as a diet for hard working horses, I would take a look at the Rockley Farm website as they hunt their barefoot horses over flinty, stoney Exmoor so they should know the best feeds for stamina and enery and hard feet.
I would think when you cut out the barley and sugar from his diet, you might be able to hack out with others, barley sent my boy into an idiot mode, and any hint of sugar had the same effect.
I would advise going right back to basics of ad lib fibre, as near to zero sugar as you can get and maybe the Pro Hoof supplement might be the answer for you? This is about the best I have found for creating good strong hooves and getting rid of toxins as it has yeast added too (which might also help with the plants/spins/rears hacking behaviour, he could well have ulcers too.
I feel this is all so much for you to take in, a massive turn around from what you thought was the correct diet, but any of us who have learnt about hooves have gone through the same transformation and realisation of what is a good diet for a horse. Generally, less is more when it comes to feeds and keeping weight on.
Good luck, it sounds like you will be raising some eyebrows at your yard if they are all getting more of the same as your boy.;)
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Poor doers tend to be kept poor by feeding inappropriate feeds that 'sound good' and are 'recommended by him and her' but actually make effective digestion almost impossible.

50% of calorific intake is via fermenting fibre in the hind gut.

Fibre keeps the gut at a steady pH and the blood sugar at a steady level.

Unmolassed beet is palatable and easily fermented - so it's an easy source of calories. Other sources of fibre are Fast Fibre, and unmolassed hay or oat straw chaff.
Grass nuts or Readigrass can be helpful too.

Alfalfa is useful - but be watchful of the calcium level. It can be high in forage in the UK and added to the limestone flour it will = too much calcium. If the phosphorous level isn't to match, then you have a problem. This will have an effect on your magnesium level.....

The horse needs it's minerals balanced to benefit. The best way is to have the forage tested. If this isn't possible - there are two commercial supplements on the market that are worth the money.

Grains and high sugar feeds will mess up the pH in the gut and also lead to rapid raises and dips in blood sugar.

A performance horse needs rapid access to glucose when in hard and sustained work - but with a high fibre and high mineral diet - the horse should have enough reserves. Oats fed after exercise can replenish and depletion.

If a horse cannot keep their weight just for maintenance - there is something wrong.

Hooves are a mirror to the entire horse. Horses don't get heart disease like we do - it shows up in their hoof.

As for the Red Cell - yes I fed it on the recommendation of my vet once, when I didn't know any better. But the truth is that humans can suffer from anaemia easily but THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A RECORDED CASE OF DIETARY IRON DEFICIENCY IN A HORSE.
Iron is abundant in forage and commercial feeds. Iron excess is the problem - it depletes the body of copper (which is low in forage and feeds) and copper is essential for tendon/ligament tissue and skin/hoof formation.

If you want a decent diet that will suit the needs of your performance horse - I would engage the services of an INDEPENDENT nutritionist who understands the importance of mineral balancing.
http://www.drkellon.com/consultations.html
http://www.equinenutritionist.co.uk/what-is-independent-nutritionist
 
After chatting to the vets again (dog was in for vacc Fri eve) we have devised a softly softly approach to gradual changes. She feels that the copper deficiency possibility that was highlighted by cptrayes is the first starting point with the diet. She is more convinced of this due to the timing of anaemia, red cell, foot problems and also the fact that our other horse is slightly predisposed to runny eyes (his feet are thankfully good though). She also discussed the issue of some colours of horses thought to be more predisposed to this deficiency and he is chestnut (our other is grey). She is happy with him being on the Kevin Bacon hoof supplement as this provides a really good range of essentials including the RDA of copper, zinc, calcium, vit A and Biotin. She wants us to stick with the yesacc, oils, and cortaflex as normal and take out the limestone powder after a fortnight as he'll get too much calcium for maintenance due to doubling up with the hoof formula.

She has agreed for me to try to drop the cooked barley gradually and we are down to one scoop a day and one cup of oil a day. We went on the cooked barley after first trying a cup of oil daily when we removed super barley. At this point it didn't seem to help him put weight on hence moving to the cooked barley in the first place, but giving it another go. Eventually aiming to remove cooked barley as we do in spring anyhow so just dropping it early and if he drops weight it is not too long before he get spring grass. She feels the molly should stay for now, if problems continue we can rethink and maybe try and see if it would make any difference (he would normally only get 1 scoop a day of molly once out at grass so it won't be too big of a change if we do take it out at this point).

She recommended sunflower oil as fine, however I put half a cup in (we'll be building up from) in the molly/chop portion of tea last night and mixed it up and he would not eat it. He just ate the beet and left the rest. I'll try in the beet section tonight, but is there any type of oil that tastes better for horses?

She also gave me zinc sulphate for his feet (used for sheep foot rot) to use for 10 days. She thought the main issue with his feet is probably that in clearing up the infection, which was a typical thrush infection he had in September when the fields were flooded, we have inadvertently allowed a resistant bacteria to overgrow. This is why it has come back but does not smell the same or seem to have exactly the same symptoms. So we have over eagerly treated last time and essentially "done more harm than good". After this course we pack the frog with a mild antiseptic cream to allow gradual balanced re-population. She'll be out to check on him/progress when in the area later in the week.

Already causing raised eyebrows, the fact I point black refuse to feed course mixes, a tonne of carrots, apples and fancy licks etc is usually enough to set a lot of the other liveries off.

Last night his frogs had definitely hardened with 2 days of the zinc sulphate and he is not bothered by us applying it so thankfully it must not be as uncomfortable as the disinfectants. Farrier is due back to trim off the ragged bits for me as I don't dare attempt this myself so fingers crossed it is starting to look better under there. I took some photos on my phone but they are too dark to see much except the shoe so I can have another go in better light...
 
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