Treeless saddles / muscle impact

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LBird

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I tried a Heather Moffett Vogue treeless saddle on my horse yesterday and he worked very, very well in it. I have subsequently been 'warned off' going treeless by an experienced horsewoman and a saddle fitter who has just passed a Master Saddlers course. They tell me that using a treeless saddle will result in deep muscle injury to my horse's back as my seat bones will create pressure points.

Are there any long term treeless users out there who can offer any advice / opinions? Has this happened to your horse? If so, is regular chiropractic / osteopathic / massage treatment sufficient to keep it at bay? Has anyone had to stop using their treeless saddle because it caused back problems for their horse?

Sorry for such a long post but I will be grateful for any info you can give me.
 
I asked my vet, who is a back specialist about this. He told me that he doesn't see more bad backs from either type of saddle, but does see plenty from badly fitting saddles
 
I have a Heather Moffatt treeless saddle, my horse is seen by a chiropractic vet at least twice a year. This is a person trained as a vet , then a Chiro then as a acupuncturist . Since I have gone treeless she has complimented my horse saying how well he looks and how well he is feeling. While I agree cheap, horrid makes of treeless saddles are to be avoided, the new, well designed versions such as the HM , solutions etc are just as well made and balanced as a treed saddle. In fact a badly fitted treed saddle can cause those issues mention as well. Does the treeless route suit all, no of course not,there are cons as well as pros, you have to read up on how to use. They still need to be fitted and balanced to your horse, fitters are avaliable.( I have now learnt to do my own) Mine is a pain to mount from the ground with, unless it's well warmed up and if it does move ( rare if fitted well) you can't just stand on a stirrup you have to get off and re set the saddle. My horse is very happy in it and it's very comfortable for me. There is nothing you can not do in these saddles including jumping. This is the longest I've gone in a saddle for years on him.
 
Any saddle can cause muscle damage. I've been riding my mare in a bareback pad then a solution saddle since November last year. In Feb my made to measure specialist *treed* saddle arrived and it did more damage to her back in 30 minutes than I've ever seen any saddle do! After a big battle I got a refund and I had a solution on trial. I've had it for about 4 months now and I am obsessive about checking her back. All the issues the treed saddles were causing have gone and she is building more muscle up especially in the hollows they created. Now, neither of the treed saddles she had (both fitted by a specialist saddle fitter from a very well known specialist company) turned out to be suitable for my horse. A decent treed saddle which actually fitted, may have been just as suitable as my solution has turned out to be, however I went with them because after the afore mentioned issues with a certain specialist company, I was not risking a further disaster for my poor long suffering hardly complaining cob and I wanted it on trial to be sure it was the right one for her.

Previously when I put the saddle on her she would crab at me. Under saddle she appeared to be performing ok however now she has a saddle which doesn't stick the points of the tree into her shoulders, her performance has improved tremendously and she no longer minds me saddling her. That's really all I need to know!

Treeless saddles aren't for everyone or every horse but this one has certainly worked brilliantly for my horse and I, and with a combination of large shoulders (hers) and ultra long legs (mine) and the desire to have a jump saddle, solution really has been the solution. I wouldn't be put off by someone who probably hasn't got a lot of real experience and is just going on things they heard.
 
I never noticed my seat bones digging into my horse' s back even when riding bareback, it feels like human muscle resting on horse' s muscle. Buttocks are pretty good cushions even when minimal like mine. And we do not put pressure on the horse's backbone without a treed saddle either. There is a kind of gap between said buttocks! Old wives' tales die hard obviously.
 
LBird said:
. I have subsequently been 'warned off' going treeless by an experienced horsewoman and a saddle fitter who has just passed a Master Saddlers course. They tell me that using a treeless saddle will result in deep muscle injury to my horse's back as my seat bones will create pressure points.
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Clearly not experienced in the area of treeless saddles. Presumably she has provided you with research and evidence. Does Master Saddlers training include making and fitting treeless saddles? BTW after 13 years of treeless saddle use we have yet to have a back injured by a treeless saddle.
 
I've ridden in Solution saddles with all our horses for over 10 years now. No sore backs, only nicely muscled ones.
: )
 
Hmmm .. think there might be a grain of truth in it. Some years ago there was a number of riders in my area who swapped to treeless saddles .. at first every thing was good, happy horses, happy riders. Over time I noticed that some of the horse's seemed to be less happy, in some cases dumping their riders, which was uncharacteristic for those particular horses. As time went on I realised that those who were experiencing these unscheduled dismounts were on the skinny side, whilst those who were more upholstered in that department were fine. I concluded that the pressure of the seat bones of the skinny riders was being transferred to the Horses back and those with more natural padding didn't have that problem.
 
As an overweight (at times close to the max weight my mare could carry) and not very skilled rider who rode many years in a HM Fhoenix saddle I can tell you my mare never had any back problems at all in that time. I would mount from the ground from time to time. I gave it up when I was diagnosed with arthritis in my hip I needed a saddle with a narrower twist to be able to continue riding my rather wide native.
 
planete said:
I never noticed my seat bones digging into my horse' s back even when riding bareback, it feels like human muscle resting on horse' s muscle. Buttocks are pretty good cushions even when minimal like mine. And we do not put pressure on the horse's backbone without a treed saddle either. There is a kind of gap between said buttocks! Old wives' tales die hard obviously.
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Exactly. OPs saddler is talking as if seatbones were metal nubs on the outside of our jodhs. There's something inbetween the seatbones and the horses back - our butts. Do we all have deep muscle damage in our butts from our seatbones? :rolleyes3:
 
I'm in two minds - I'm currently training to be a saddle fitter and I am thinking of stocking at least one treeless brand BUT I do have concerns about pressure and weight distribution.

It's not necessarily about seat bones although in some treeless saddles seat bones will be a problem there is also stirrup bars / attachments and also without the rigidity of a tree the riders weight may be concentrated over a smaller area.

Some horses are very strong through the back and problems may well not arise but others are not so strong and there are potential risks I think with both treed and treeless.

FfionWinnie, as back problems can manifest themselves over a long period of time, how did you know for certain that it was the saddle that caused the damage rather than the bareback pad? I saw a couple of your pics so I am aware some of it was superficial but did you have issues with deeper muscles?

How do you find weight distribution with the solution? Is it centred or does it dissipate pressure through the length of the panels? I am told that these saddles spread the weight more evenly but then they say that you can use a large saddle on a small pony as the weight will not be distributed to the loin area so it's a bit confusing!
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
Exactly. OPs saddler is talking as if seatbones were metal nubs on the outside of our jodhs. There's something inbetween the seatbones and the horses back - our butts. Do we all have deep muscle damage in our butts from our seatbones? :rolleyes3:
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However if I sit on my hands I can definitely feel my seat bones and I have quite an ample behind lol. If a child sits on my knee I can feel their seat bones too so over time I would say that a riders seat bones could cause a lot of pressure on a horses back leading to sore areas.

Padding can of course help but can also hinder by spreading the area of pressure rather than alleviating it. That depends on the material the padding is made from
 
I've ridden in a HM flexEE for 2 years now and my horses back has changed greatly for the better, muscle wastage all recovered and he goes beautifully in it, this was at the age of 17 too, after years of problems with treed saddles. I would highly recommend them, not treeless but a flexible leather tree, so kind of a half-way house I suppose. Certainly no signs of muscle damage of any sort, quite the opposite in fact.
 
Wow! Thank you everyone for thoughtful, helpful replies! I'm fairly certain that neither the saddle fitter nor the experienced horsewoman who were advising me have a lot of experience of treeless saddles - sometimes a firmly held opinion seems to be considered a substitute ;-) I have read all the research I can find but there doesn't appear to be any consensus. Even the Master Saddlers research isn't very helpful as they don't mention brands, shapes, pads, etc..

Having read all the replies, I am definitely going to try one of the Heather Moffett saddles. My horse will guide me, as always: his back is checked once a month by an osteopath and the chiropractor comes every 3 months so, if any problems do arise, they'll be found quickly.

Thank you all for taking the time to reply.
 
I've used a heather moffett FlexEE for 2 years now on old mare and her back is brilliant, muscle wastage filled in and physio can never find anything wrong. Think it depends on the brand, I would think the cheap treeless saddles on ebay would seriously damage backs.
 
Wheels said:
Some horses are very strong through the back and problems may well not arise but others are not so strong and there are potential risks I think with both treed and treeless.

FfionWinnie, as back problems can manifest themselves over a long period of time, how did you know for certain that it was the saddle that caused the damage rather than the bareback pad? I saw a couple of your pics so I am aware some of it was superficial but did you have issues with deeper muscles?
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Phew this is a long answer sorry!

I only had two treed saddles on this horse. One I already owned when I bought her which was fitted to her and later when I had bought a second horse it was decided horse 2 would get saddle 1 and I would get a new one for my first horse. The new one was to be narrower but otherwise the same saddle.

It didn't cause deep muscle problems, and I knew the damage was caused by the treed saddles because it ceased the moment I used the BB pad, I only started using the BB pad because I knew there was a problem with the saddle. I also had my physio look at her while using the BB pad and right before saddle 2 arrived so I have professional proof where the soreness came from and at what point.

She goes beautifully in the BB pad and the solution saddle, but her movement is impeded by the other 2 saddles in terms of stride length, and shape over a fence including lifting her shoulders. Of course, I hadn't ridden her in anything else so until it started causing rubbing and she was crabbing when saddled, which she did not do when I first got her, I had no way of knowing her movement and performance could be better - she was still performing pretty well all things considered.

I got the saddler out when the crabbing started and was told it was the girth causing the issue (it wasn't, it was when I placed the saddle on her back, she wasn't girthy, but it's easy with hindsight to say that, at the time I believed what I was told).

After saddle 2 was clearly a complete disaster I had an independent fitter assess the situation (I was not going to buy a saddle from this person and they knew this, they don't sell any new saddles) and was shown how the points of the tree were sticking into her shoulders and that this was pushing the saddle back, however, there was not enough room to accommodate the saddle back there.

I had two further fitters who I was potentially purchasing from, also look at the horse and one pointed out while she has a reasonably long back she also has a long sloping wither and large active shoulders which meant there was far less room to fit that first impressions. They also agreed the damage to her back was unacceptable and yes, they had a vested interest in agreeing with me, however what has played out has proven beyond a doubt as far as I am concerned.

In saddle 1 she would on occasion crash through fences. It wasn't very often but when she got saddle 2, this behaviour increased to the point where in one lesson she crashed through 6 fences and hardly left a pole up. Her ears were back throughout this lesson she was bucking (which she never does), often disunited and reluctant to go forward and looking back on it makes me feel ill. After that she never wore it again as I knew absolutely the saddle didn't fit.

The independent fitter explained to me that saddle 1 was wider and had been broken in by my previous horse so it wasn't as obvious that the tree was wrong for her, but when saddle 2 the new narrower one was put on her everything which was unsuitable for her was compounded and her behaviour showed that the saddle was not suitable.

I have videoed every single lesson and competition with this horse since I bought her and the camera doesn't lie. The first time I jumped her in the solution saddle I got my happy super cob back and she's just got better and better.

It's no coincidence that she can now do flying changes, rarely touches a pole, is jumping metre tracks with ease, and is not bucking or disunited.

While the solution is treeless, it's not a floppy soft thing, it doesn't feel any different than riding in a treed saddle (if I was being picky the cantle is deformable and that is slightly odd but a flatter seated tree saddle would be comparable to the feel). Interestingly the solution does not move back at all. Nothing could stop saddles 1+2 shifting back, a five point breast plate was garrotting her and it still moved back. I still ride with a BP as solution recommend you do for jumping but it has not come into play yet.

I'm not saying treeless are for everyone because they aren't and I only know about solution (and my Christ lamfelle). Horse 2 prefers saddle 1 , she didn't like the solution the one time I tried it on her BUT I do think it's always worth considering all your options.
 
If you can feel your seat bones digging into your hands when sitting on them you are adopting a position you should never adopt on a horse' s back or you will make him hollow under the pressure, even with a treed saddle between you and him.
 
There is a huge difference between treeless and HM Vogue - the Vogue is built of memory foam and has a good gullet to keep pressure off the spine. Generic treeless don't have that gullet and if you use one without a special pad with a gullet, such as a suberpad, your weight in the stirrups will transfer to the centre of the saddle just where it crosses the spine and it's associated ligaments. Body workers have found damage from this - Heathers saddles are different.
 
But there is a huge difference between lots of different treeless, the solutions are treeless and have a gullet too and they aren't the only ones. All those that don't tell you that you have to use an appropriate pad underneath and if people choose not to do so it isn't really the saddle's fault if damage occurs.
 
OP I have been using treeless since about 2005 I think. Mainly Torsion and HM although I also have a Libra as a backing saddle. None of mine have had back issues and in fact I took on an older mare with serious wastage who did really well in the Libra then the Flexee and built up the lost muscle. She went fantastically in both, and had been ridden by her previous owner in a too narrow dressage saddle. Then again, the Flexee did not suit my gelding, who has pretty correct conformation, and he protested to it so it was sold. It also gave me knee pain with regular use. I have gone back to Torsion again and as before, no problems.

I always use a Suberpad, however, having seen the effect it had on the old girl. Whether or not it helps prevent back problems I don't know, but as with treed saddles it's the individual horse and correct fit which are important.
 
JillA said:
There is a huge difference between treeless and HM Vogue - the Vogue is built of memory foam and has a good gullet to keep pressure off the spine. Generic treeless don't have that gullet and if you use one without a special pad with a gullet, such as a suberpad, your weight in the stirrups will transfer to the centre of the saddle just where it crosses the spine and it's associated ligaments. Body workers have found damage from this - Heathers saddles are different.
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There are other treeless saddles that look like conventional saddles. I have sourced a second hand Mondial Holistic saddle as I wanted something "normal" looking for the show ring. here is a picture of a dressage model. http://bettersaddles.co.uk/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=58
I have used a Barefoot Cheyenne for years, and now a Mondial, and have seen how much my horse's back muscles have built up by using them, and I would ride at 13 stone. Every time I get off, I check the impression left on the back, and it is uniformly even. I can feel my horse's back lifting up under me, which is surely what you should be looking to acheive. As for "deep seated" muscle, what do they mean? You have the Longissimus and Latissimus muscles that support the saddle and weight of rider, then the supra spinous ligament which runs over the vertebrae. I recently bought back my eventer into work after having a foal. She had really dipped in the back from the weight, and lost a lot of muscle. After a month of long and low lungeing, she then started with my treeless, and after two months, has a really good strong back again. She wouldn't have that if there were pressure point issues.
 
I've been riding treeless now for 10years with no back problems with any of the 3 of them.

The 2 younger horses have only ever been ridden treeless, the older mare I had issues with while still using treed saddles. I really struggled to find one that didn't cause pain because of pressure due to her having a huge shoulder. Moved to treeless as a last resort before forking out a couple of grand for a saddle that was m2m breed specific and have never looked back.

I don't think they suit every horse but they work for mine.
 
I ride mine with a HM Pheonix and have had no problems with his back. I fell in love with it after riding in one on Heather's mechanical horse. My horse went better in it immediately, even though his treed saddle fitted okay. I rarely jump (never any height) and usually only ride for about an hour though, not sure how it would cope if you regularly spent the whole day in the saddle.
 
I think you will find that master saddlers are via biased towards treed saddles.

However if you take the view that a horses back is a moving surface, and may be beautifully round and support, or hollow, or variants in between, then putting a static treed saddle on a changing surface really isn't the best idea.,
 
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