Trimming and Podiatrist qualifications... differences

Queenbee

Queenbee

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I am looking at barefoot trimmers, podiatrists and farriers, I may be making a switch from my farrier to someone else and am weighing up my options the pros and cons.

I am a bit stuck on what the hell the different training involves, I don't want to end up with the wrong person for the job.

Could someone please explain what the differences are between the following, what their training involves and what cost I would be looking at in comparison to a full set of shoes:

Equine Podiatary diploma

aanhcp

UKNHCP


I know there are good and bad in every sphere but what would generally be the pros and cons when weighing them up against a qualified and experienced farrier?

Cookies, ginger beer and thanks :)
 
I'm a bit woolly, but..

AANHCP - Association of Advanced Natural Hoofcare Practitioner (I think...)

They are the longest-standing 'professional' (see note below) training body, started out in America by Jamie Jackson & co, based on observing the mustang and the 'wild-horse' model. AANHCP trimmer should be able to give you advice on the best management and feeding for your horse to give optimal hoof health. Their trim is very non-invasive and is about letting the horse grow the hoof he needs.

UKNHCP is Nic Barker and another lady in North Wales... Basically they're a UK spin-off of AANHCP (I think there may be a little animosity...) I think UKNHCP would say that UK climate is quite different ie. wet!

DEAP - more invasive / proactive (depending on your view) I think, will measure and trim to the 'ideal' hoof shape...

My AANHCP charges £40 for a trim every 6 weeks, and has trained me to maintain the hoof between trims to keep it balanced and minimise chips, cracks etc.

None of these qualifications has the same legal clout that the farriery Dip does, but I understand that all are keen to move in that direction.
 
AANHCP - Association for Advancement of Natural Hoofcare Practices.

Nearly right...

There is no animosity... that I know of anyway and I regularly keep up with all things barefoot.. why would there be? America also has wet areas - it's a big place.

UKNHCP is what represents NHCP in the UK and is recognised and regulated as such.

EPAUK is representing body of Equine Podiatrists. There isn't much different between the two schools, both work towards high performing hooves.

I would suggest looking on their respective websites and comparing for yourself and then locate your nearest practitioner and go to that persons website and check what they do.

(DAEP KC La Pierre) does not promote invasive practices... not sure what woodfordfox is trying to say or where it's from... care to enlighten us?
 
tallyho! said:
AANHCP - Association for Advancement of Natural Hoofcare Practices.

Nearly right...

There is no animosity... that I know of anyway and I regularly keep up with all things barefoot.. why would there be? America also has wet areas - it's a big place.

UKNHCP is what represents NHCP in the UK and is recognised and regulated as such.

EPAUK is representing body of Equine Podiatrists. There isn't much different between the two schools, both work towards high performing hooves.

I would suggest looking on their respective websites and comparing for yourself and then locate your nearest practitioner and go to that persons website and check what they do.

(DAEP KC La Pierre) does not promote invasive practices... not sure what woodfordfox is trying to say or where it's from... care to enlighten us?
Click to expand...

Thanks, the ones that I have found in this area so far are:
http://www.hoofingmarvellous.net/
http://www.hoofmatters.co.uk/
and another one on here (3rd down) who is an EP but it does not say who the person is so I have no real way of looking into how good or not they are:
http://www.hoofmatters.co.uk/

there are 2 farriers down here who's approaches are very similar and whom I would trust and respect with my horses, the first is my current farrier, fantastic but not the most reliable and very heavily over stocked with clients, plus he wants to give up before his back does! The other I have not used yet, but when I met him I thought his attitude and approach to be very similar to my current farrier, and he has had some good reviews by friends of mine. Although my yard owner is picky about who she lets come to the yard and I may have to battle it out with her if I wanted that farrier. Plus not only am I very picky about who shoes/trims my 2, I have a big youngster, who can strike with his front legs, not in temper but in impatience when he gets a bit bored, (it is more of a paw than a strike :D) my current chap just ignores him, which is great, but I don't want anyone who may get teasy with him, he is learning and learning well, he only does this in situations that are new to him and that is after he has put up with it for a while, plus even though I handle his feet daily and he is happy for men to be around him, when my farrier first trimmed him, he went into a bit of a panic (it was funny, bless) my chap was really gentle with him, not all the people down here are! Anyway I don't want to be left without when he does retire so am thinking about changing over, but really want to make the right decision for my 2.

Cookies :D
 
I know someone who does this, although not entirly sure what qualification it was that she did. I do know that she did what worked out to be one months training, and has to have 'regular' top up sessions.

That, in my opinion, is not enough to let anyone near my horses feet.
 
Brandy said:
I know someone who does this, although not entirly sure what qualification it was that she did. I do know that she did what worked out to be one months training, and has to have 'regular' top up sessions.

That, in my opinion, is not enough to let anyone near my horses feet.
Click to expand...

Thats what you have to do as a beginner farrier. You have to start somewhere.
 
tallyho! said:
Thats what you have to do as a beginner farrier. You have to start somewhere.
Click to expand...

Yes, but apprentice farriers are properly supervised and not 'let loose' on hooves after one month's training. The operative word there is 'begin'.
OP, I can understand why you are looking at your options but I would only allow a qualified farrier near my horses' feet - and I wouldn't let all farriers near them either! I'm very choosy!
 
queenbee said:
Thanks, the ones that I have found in this area so far are:
http://www.hoofingmarvellous.net/
http://www.hoofmatters.co.uk/
and another one on here (3rd down) who is an EP but it does not say who the person is so I have no real way of looking into how good or not they are:
http://www.hoofmatters.co.uk/
Click to expand...

Ruth Levy-So it says but you're right, no pics of her work like you would on others.

If you look up DAEP, then click on UK, it gives a list and there is someone else in Cornwall... Jessica Day... also there is a farrier called Chris Keable who is associate member of UKNHCP and is the only one in SW that fits NB shoes and is really experienced. Not sure if he goes as far as Cornwall but he says SW England... :)

Well, each horse is different with different people. My naughty horse is a puppy with Jayne, I can't quite believe how docile he gets. Usually likes to lean back, nibble, shuffle around, you know general nuisance :rolleyes: he was also very good with another farrier (also a barefoot trimmer round these parts). There's two farriers that come to my yard I would not let loose on my horse, they are so coarse and I know M would instantly be on his guard with them.

Do more research and get who you really feel comfortable with. Make calls, ask to see their work. I did and it costs nothing to do some background. You're paying good money to whoever comes so be happy with whatever you choose for your horses :)
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Yes, but apprentice farriers are properly supervised and not 'let loose' on hooves after one month's training. The operative word there is 'begin'.
OP, I can understand why you are looking at your options but I would only allow a qualified farrier near my horses' feet - and I wouldn't let all farriers near them either! I'm very choosy!
Click to expand...

Neither are these trimmers if you cared to look up the requirements.

It's not rocket science. I do my own in between 'proper' trims and it's easier than doing my own nails :D
 
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Pearlsasinger said:
Yes, but apprentice farriers are properly supervised and not 'let loose' on hooves after one month's training. The operative word there is 'begin'.
OP, I can understand why you are looking at your options but I would only allow a qualified farrier near my horses' feet - and I wouldn't let all farriers near them either! I'm very choosy!
Click to expand...

I understand where you are coming from but qualifications do not always make a person, I have always had farriers, but some down here I would not trust with my youngster, I certainly wouldn't have trusted them with my mare years ago when she was 7 and had never had her feet picked up. It is the quality of workmanship and the temperament of the person that I am looking for.

I am not looking for someone who has gone on a months course, but I am looking for the right person, to quote you, "I am very choosy! " I was particularly interested in the different training approaches and requirements for the different qualifications, I think I read that an EP has to do a further year of supervised on the job training after initial qualification, but am unsure how long they or the other 'trimmers' 'study for'

There was a time when equine dentists that were trained in america were rubbished over here, I know of a particularly exceptional woman based down here who I would trust to do any of my horses, she is extremely good with nervous ones. I equally trust a british qualified very experienced EDT, it is all about the person who best suits the job, not just about whether they are traditionally recognised. A supposedly fantastic farrier once shod my pony because he was already coming up to the yard, I found him lying down nail bound in the field. Another punched my very green mare in the chest because she just wanted to shoe dobbins and was not used to or comfy with shoeing 'green' horses, she neglected to mention this and my mare got three hefty punches, which just sent her wild. Having said that I have seen some truly brilliant talented and exceptionally patient farriers in my time. I want the right person, whether they be a qualified farrier or a qualified trimmer, they must have experience, temperament, and bloody good references preferably off people I know.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Yes, but apprentice farriers are properly supervised and not 'let loose' on hooves after one month's training. The operative word there is 'begin'.
OP, I can understand why you are looking at your options but I would only allow a qualified farrier near my horses' feet - and I wouldn't let all farriers near them either! I'm very choosy!
Click to expand...

You can tell that to the apprentice who went digging away into my horse's soles until he was stood in pools of blood.

Supervising farrier said nothing, but fobbed me off.

To this day, I've never found out why he decided to mutilate my horse???

That was when I started using a UKNHCP trimmer.

To the OP - I would only consider using an UKNHCP or an AANHCP trimmer - just my choice.

But I will say that a website means nothing to me. I would demand recommendations from several of the trimmer's clients before I were to use them.
 
Oberon said:
You can tell that to the apprentice who went digging away into my horse's soles until he was stood in pools of blood.

Supervising farrier said nothing, but fobbed me off.

To this day, I've never found out why he decided to mutilate my horse???

That was when I started using a UKNHCP trimmer.

To the OP - I would only consider using an UKNHCP or an AANHCP trimmer - just my choice.

But I will say that a website means nothing to me. I would demand recommendations from several of the trimmer's clients before I were to use them.
Click to expand...

I meerly showed the websites to indicate the people that I had found who cover the area and enqure into what the qualifications entail, although no one seems to be able to give me any specifics and real comparisons between the training for the different courses. And I have already said that no one would come near my horses without fantastic reccomendations, preferrably off people that I knew, thank you all for your advice.:)
 
I'm also a bit woolly, but as others have said, those of the Jaime Jackson (AANHCP) are more of the Wild Hoof Model camp, whilst DAEPs (KC La Pierre) look at individual structures and optimising those structures. Both treat hooves in a holistic way i.e. looking at environment and diet in addition to what's in front of them. Like farriers, there are good and not so good ones in each. I don't know anyone in your area to recommend (too far away!), but I did go to a Pete Ramey workshop in Exeter, so there must be some down there!

As far as farrier apprentices go, they are NOT always supervised. I had two shoe my pony in succession, back in 2006. The first was in his second year and did the most appalling job. The second was also in his second year and was better, but I still wasn't happy that he wasn't nearly qualified yet, but was out unsupervised. I never used that practice again, although it was the biggest in the area.

OP, if you're happy with your farrier and he's looking to scale down his work, why don't you take advantage of that and stick with him? Trimming is much less back-breaking than shoeing and farriers do generally charge less. I do think they're less thorough, but mine does a good trim, so I just smile sweetly and keep up with the science privately!!
 
queenbee - when you said the following on your thread here:

...'Having said that I have seen some truly brilliant talented and exceptionally patient farriers in my time. I want the right person, whether they be a qualified farrier or a qualified trimmer, they must have experience, temperament, and bloody good references preferably off people I know.'...



I thought, you're so right to gush and rave about the right people when they do a good job. I do that too sometimes - especially for anyone who I would hightly recommend.

Here in the South East of England (where I'm from - although I think you mistakenly had me pegged for someone else, although you very much stand corrected for that!) we have some very good farriers.

I see you've also listed some websites, thanks for sharing that information, that's helpful, which is what forums are all about.

Now hypocrisy, well that's a different matter...and I don't agree with that, it's not something I practise, atlhough there are some that do!
 
queenbee said:
I meerly showed the websites to indicate the people that I had found who cover the area and enqure into what the qualifications entail, although no one seems to be able to give me any specifics and real comparisons between the training for the different courses. And I have already said that no one would come near my horses without fantastic reccomendations, preferrably off people that I knew, thank you all for your advice.:)
Click to expand...

I mentioned websites in general, not in order to have a pop at you or your post.

I've heard (and experienced) poor trimming from people from good looking and sounding websites.

I know better now than to believe them.

If you are wanting comparisons on the training - UKNHCP and AANHCP are similar.

The DEAPs I cannot speak for.

The trim is only a very small % of looking after a barefoot horse. Anyone who believes it is the b all and end all - is mistaken.

It's not about what to trim - it's about what NOT to trim;)
 
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queenbee - when you said the following on your thread here:

...'Having said that I have seen some truly brilliant talented and exceptionally patient farriers in my time. I want the right person, whether they be a qualified farrier or a qualified trimmer, they must have experience, temperament, and bloody good references preferably off people I know.'...



I thought, you're so right to gush and rave about the right people when they do a good job. I do that too sometimes - especially for anyone who I would hightly recommend.

Here in the South East of England (where I'm from - although I think you mistakenly had me pegged for someone else, although you very much stand corrected for that!) we have some very good farriers.

I see you've also listed some websites, thanks for sharing that information, that's helpful, which is what forums are all about.

Now hypocrisy, well that's a different matter...and I don't agree with that, it's not something I practise, atlhough there are some that do!
 
If you use a "qualified and experienced" farrier make sure he actually has some experience of trimming barefoot horses in hard work, not just temporarily unshod horses or pasture ornaments, or even a couple of happy-hacker cobs.. Very few farriers have this experience, and the only apprentices who are getting this experience are ones who are training with masters who have them on their books.

By hardworking, I mean hunters, eventers and long distance horses, not dressage divas on artificial surfaces.

Be sure that your farrier understands the crucial role that nutrition pays in performance feet on barefoot horses. They are not taught this at college to the level that is required. Many, for example, will blame hard ground for causing footiness in a horse which has been sound all winter, when it is the grass causing the footiness. Many will shoe to rid the horse of the footiness instead of recommending overnight-only turnout which does the same job better for the horse's health.

Make sure your farrier understands that some horses who have subtle (or obvious) imbalances in their bodies will grow odd shaped feet and that no attempt should be made to make them symmetrical if that is the case, because the "extensions" are what the horse needs to compensate for its own lack of symmetry. "Correcting" the hoof shape can lame the horse.
 
DebbieCG said:
queenbee - when you said the following on your thread here:

...'Having said that I have seen some truly brilliant talented and exceptionally patient farriers in my time. I want the right person, whether they be a qualified farrier or a qualified trimmer, they must have experience, temperament, and bloody good references preferably off people I know.'...



I thought, you're so right to gush and rave about the right people when they do a good job. I do that too sometimes - especially for anyone who I would hightly recommend.

Here in the South East of England (where I'm from - although I think you mistakenly had me pegged for someone else, although you very much stand corrected for that!) we have some very good farriers.

I see you've also listed some websites, thanks for sharing that information, that's helpful, which is what forums are all about.

Now hypocrisy, well that's a different matter...and I don't agree with that, it's not something I practise, atlhough there are some that do!
Click to expand...

DebbieGC

1. Yes, I gushed and raved, but I did not name names of farriers now did I? Nor did I direct you or anyone else to their websites. I could have.

2.I listed some websites that I found during a search, to glean more information as to the QUALIFICATIONS AND EXPERIENCE of these 'types' of trimmers, and NOT to gush and promote them, I had never seen, spoken to, or heard of them before I posted them.

3. I listed sights because I was posing a question and not promoting, they were relevant to the question. I spoke about my experiences of people in general, good and bad, as a means to illustrate that it is the 'person', attitude, approach methodology, understanding and experience, not meerly their qualifications that is important.

Surely even you can see the difference? Erm... and I think you need to rethink your useage of the word 'hypocracy' it does not fit here.

I am not even going to ask how that is the same as what you allude to... it isn't. That issue was clarified and is history, it is not good to harbor a grudge my dear, perhaps you should talk to someone about your feelings, should you ever want to pm me, I will always lend a friendly ear ;)
 
Oberon said:
I mentioned websites in general, not in order to have a pop at you or your post.

I've heard (and experienced) poor trimming from people from good looking and sounding websites.

I know better now than to believe them.

If you are wanting comparisons on the training - UKNHCP and AANHCP are similar.

The DEAPs I cannot speak for.

The trim is only a very small % of looking after a barefoot horse. Anyone who believes it is the b all and end all - is mistaken.

It's not about what to trim - it's about what NOT to trim;)
Click to expand...

I hear you, and agree with you. Even the worlds worst can look good via a website ;) nothing like good reccomendations. Where our horses are concerned it is alway worth questioning, then questioning, then questioning again! Never just rely on the wrapping paper LOL!
 
I am training with the UKNHCP at the moment, so can only really speak for them, but if I can give you an insight in to our training I will...

Sooo...it's 18 months long (not a month!!) you have to go through a REALLY tough interview process, they don't just take any old tom dick or harry, you have to show intelligence, commitment and a real passion for the subject.

Then the hard work begins....LOTS of reading material, a nutrition course with one of the top independant equine nutritionists in the World, numerous dissections (something that farriers don't tend to do!), shadowing, saddle fitting course, numerous days with farriers and other trimmers, intensive trim weeks, biomechanics and physiology course, mentoring scheme and case studies, god what else...can't think...but it's really in depth and a huge exam at the end. We then have CPD for the rest of our working careers.

So you can see that, at least for the UKNHCP qualified trimmers, they really are trained in a whole spectrum of subject, from numerous people to give them a really rounded start to their careers.

Hope that helps you get an insight of a UKNHCP trimmer.

But I would say - if you have the choice of having a farrier, UKNHCP, AANHCP or EP...then you're very lucky as most areas will only have one person interested in PROPER barefoot!
 
cptrayes said:
If you use a "qualified and experienced" farrier make sure he actually has some experience of trimming barefoot horses in hard work, not just temporarily unshod horses or pasture ornaments, or even a couple of happy-hacker cobs.. Very few farriers have this experience, and the only apprentices who are getting this experience are ones who are training with masters who have them on their books.

By hardworking, I mean hunters, eventers and long distance horses, not dressage divas on artificial surfaces.

Be sure that your farrier understands the crucial role that nutrition pays in performance feet on barefoot horses. They are not taught this at college to the level that is required. Many, for example, will blame hard ground for causing footiness in a horse which has been sound all winter, when it is the grass causing the footiness. Many will shoe to rid the horse of the footiness instead of recommending overnight-only turnout which does the same job better for the horse's health.



Make sure your farrier understands that some horses who have subtle (or obvious) imbalances in their bodies will grow odd shaped feet and that no attempt should be made to make them symmetrical if that is the case, because the "extensions" are what the horse needs to compensate for its own lack of symmetry. "Correcting" the hoof shape can lame the horse.
Click to expand...

Hi, yes... I agree with what you say and will be doing exactly that if I have a farrier, the chap I use trims probably as many as he shoes, and is always trying to get his clients to go without, although I suppose it is because it takes less time and is easier :D but I know the other chap I am considering using, is exactly the same, he has a lot of barefoot clients and certainly 'talked the talk' when I met him.
 
queenbee

you said :

'I am not even going to ask how that is the same as what you allude to... it isn't. That issue was clarified and is history, it is not good to harbor a grudge my dear, perhaps you should talk to someone about your feelings, should you ever want to pm me, I will always lend a friendly ear '



Strange that, I did pm you with a polite message to confirm who I was, (erm, as you had accused me of being someone I was not, without any type of research, and based purely on your wild speculation and supposition, which is a bit silly of you, isn't it my dear.)

Did I receive an apology from you for that? - No.

Now that's defamatory and I don't think the moderators like that. By the way, the only people I will speak to are the moderators, as unlike some people, they are fair minded and do not twist things or use double standards - I think it's you who needs to talk to someone
 
kittykatcat said:
I am training with the UKNHCP at the moment, so can only really speak for them, but if I can give you an insight in to our training I will...

Sooo...it's 18 months long (not a month!!) you have to go through a REALLY tough interview process, they don't just take any old tom dick or harry, you have to show intelligence, commitment and a real passion for the subject.

Then the hard work begins....LOTS of reading material, a nutrition course with one of the top independant equine nutritionists in the World, numerous dissections (something that farriers don't tend to do!), shadowing, saddle fitting course, numerous days with farriers and other trimmers, intensive trim weeks, biomechanics and physiology course, mentoring scheme and case studies, god what else...can't think...but it's really in depth and a huge exam at the end. We then have CPD for the rest of our working careers.

So you can see that, at least for the UKNHCP qualified trimmers, they really are trained in a whole spectrum of subject, from numerous people to give them a really rounded start to their careers.

Hope that helps you get an insight of a UKNHCP trimmer.

But I would say - if you have the choice of having a farrier, UKNHCP, AANHCP or EP...then you're very lucky as most areas will only have one person interested in PROPER barefoot!
Click to expand...

Sorry queenbee, not intended as a hijack, but kittykatcat, hope you don't mind me adding you as friend as I'm saving up for UKNHCP course. Hope to be one in a few years... and yes I'm obsessed and a bit of a hoof geek...

My friends call it my "foot fetish"!!!!!! :D:D:D:D
 
DebbieCG said:
queenbee

you said :

'I am not even going to ask how that is the same as what you allude to... it isn't. That issue was clarified and is history, it is not good to harbor a grudge my dear, perhaps you should talk to someone about your feelings, should you ever want to pm me, I will always lend a friendly ear '



Strange that, I did pm you with a polite message to confirm who I was, (erm, as you had accused me of being someone I was not, without any type of research, and based purely on your wild speculation and supposition, which is a bit silly of you, isn't it my dear.)

Did I receive an apology from you for that? - No.

Now that's defamatory and I don't think the moderators like that. By the way, the only people I will speak to are the moderators, as unlike some people, they are fair minded and do not twist things or use double standards - I think it's you who needs to talk to someone
Click to expand...

Good grief, queenbee, lock your doors tonight.

You seem to have picked up a stalker.......?
 
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tallyho! said:
Sorry queenbee, not intended as a hijack, but kittykatcat, hope you don't mind me adding you as friend as I'm saving up for UKNHCP course. Hope to be one in a few years... and yes I'm obsessed and a bit of a hoof geek...

My friends call it my "foot fetish"!!!!!! :D:D:D:D
Click to expand...

(I'm saving up too;))
 
Oberon - you are obviously trying to stir things. I have reported queenbee to the moderators for her defamatory remarks about my authenticity on another thread. It's not right or fair that people can get away with saying the things they do under guise of being very opinionated -apparentely though I am not allowed my own opinions, well that's according to queenbee.
 
DebbieCG said:
queenbee

you said :

'I am not even going to ask how that is the same as what you allude to... it isn't. That issue was clarified and is history, it is not good to harbor a grudge my dear, perhaps you should talk to someone about your feelings, should you ever want to pm me, I will always lend a friendly ear '



Strange that, I did pm you with a polite message to confirm who I was, (erm, as you had accused me of being someone I was not, without any type of research, and based purely on your wild speculation and supposition, which is a bit silly of you, isn't it my dear.)

Did I receive an apology from you for that? - No.

Now that's defamatory and I don't think the moderators like that. By the way, the only people I will speak to are the moderators, as unlike some people, they are fair minded and do not twist things or use double standards - I think it's you who needs to talk to someone
Click to expand...

Debbie, you wrote me a veritable novel, I do not generally bother with fully reading a 10000 word essay in my pm box, especially when that person has written an equally long post in response to me. I am sorry for your loss and happy that that organisation is what it purports to be. I did write this:
queenbee said:
a load of links and a gushing post raving from someone called debbie who incidentally has the same name as the founder of the organisation,
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queenbee said:
HHO profile says that debbie is the founder, and seemingly pushing the advert (this person may not be the same debbie and I am more than willing to stand corrected)
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it is not exactly defamatory, it was speculation, but I do not think that in this day and age, questioning the facts is a hanging offence. Moreover, I believe it is encouraged.

Oh and the bit about, lending a friendly ear... sarcasm m'dear. I do not have the time or the inclination to read such long messages, I have a life.

Now, should you wish to hijack any more of my posts with irrelevant drivel, by all means check out my recent threads.

Oberon said:
Good grief, queenbee, lock your doors tonight.

You seem to have picked up a stalker.......?
Click to expand...

;) where's the UI button :eek: :eek:
 
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