tripod dog (nearly)

[pippixox]

Hi
so having got sky the collie x rescue nearly 4 months ago, we have just taken on a 6 month old collie x boy who is missing part of one of his front paws (horrible story I don't wish to repeat on the forum). The vet has created a tidy stump and he is learning to hobble along on it quite comfortably.

I do notice how much he turns out his other front leg to stabilize himself- I assume that happens with amputees as well?
just wondered if anyone else had a tripod (or stumpy in our case!) and if there were any tips to keep him as comfortable as possible and help prevent long term strain?

at the moment as he is young and has only just started walks (came into the rescue about 6 weeks ago and was operated on and on no walks) so we are only do very small ones anyway.

I will remember how to do photo box soon- he is very cute. Trying to work out his cross- looks almost like there may be some staffy or even mastif sort. he has huge paws and recon he will be bigger than sky, who is quite a big collie girl at 19 kg

 

[{97702}]

I had a greyhound who lost her right hind through a localised bacterial infection when she was about 2-3 years old - she did absolutely fine as a tripod, in fact she was dashing around the garden with the others a day after she came home from her operation! I did give her Seraquin daily to try and assist her flexibility and movement, but if I am realistic I don't know if it actually did any good? It made me feel like I was doing something at least. Devastatingly I had to re-home her a year or two later after a marriage break-up, I later discovered she was re-homed with a nice old lady who clearly didn't have any idea of control as Ellen (the greyhound) killed two cats when she was with her!!!! I'm guessing this means Ellen didn't feel 3 legs was an impediment.....

 

[mynutmeg]

They generally do pretty well on 3 legs, but if the other leg is turning out to support then it's going to be under lots of strain so high risk of early arthritis esp if he's a bigger dog. It would be worth starting a good joint supplement now and hydrotherapy/swimming to strengthen muscles as soon as the wound is healed enough to allow.
Obv it would be an expensive option so may not be possible but if you can it would be worth getting in touch with Noel Fitzpatrick at the Fitzpatrick referals hospital as they are the experts at managing partial amputations and complex orthopaedic things - some sort of prosthesis to get him walk straight may be a good option and reduce the long term risk of arthritis in the other leg.

 

[pippixox]

yes I was thinking about that expensive fancy option! as he has nearly all the leg and does use it. I will have to look into cost, as obviously we want the best for him, but he is not insured for his leg as obviously it's pre-existing so would not be covered. the charity who we got him from have said they will pay for anything in the future related to his injury, but it could be a lot of money to find.

going to get my friend who is a physio to have a look at him too

 

[mynutmeg]

yes I was thinking about that expensive fancy option! as he has nearly all the leg and does use it. I will have to look into cost, as obviously we want the best for him, but he is not insured for his leg as obviously it's pre-existing so would not be covered. the charity who we got him from have said they will pay for anything in the future related to his injury, but it could be a lot of money to find.

going to get my friend who is a physio to have a look at him too

A slightly cheaper option may be some sort of strap on prothesis - my concern would be that he would rub the end of the stump raw walking full time on it

 

[{97702}]

Personally there is no way in the world I would go down the route of a prosthesis - or even go and see the supposed 'supervet' - with any dog. In my opinion - which I realise will be unpopular - is that he works for the owner not for the dog

 

[CorvusCorax]

Could you investigate having the whole leg off? He's young enough to cope with the change and it might encourage him to balance a little better rather than putting 'weight' on a paw that isn't there.

I totally agree Lev and have had some heated arguments on the subject. JMO.

 

[ester]

I wonder if he will potentially have more issues having had such a small section removed so that he will continue to try and use that side which might cause issues? I guess you will have to see how he gets on.

 

[{97702}]

Could you investigate having the whole leg off? He's young enough to cope with the change and it might encourage him to balance a little better rather than putting 'weight' on a paw that isn't there.

I totally agree Lev and have had some heated arguments on the subject. JMO.

Phew thank goodness I'm not the only one! Actually I didn't think about taking the leg off, I think that's a good idea - I was really anti the idea before I had Ellen, then when I saw how little it bothered her I realised how daft I had been!

 

[Umbongo]

From previous experience I think dogs and cats do better on 3 legs than they do on 3 and a bit legs.
I would look in to a full amputation or some sort of prothesis. I would also look at putting him on a joint supplement like yumove now.

 

[CrazyMare]

Yes, I also suspect partial amputation may actually cause more issues than a full amputation.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Phew thank goodness I'm not the only one! Actually I didn't think about taking the leg off, I think that's a good idea - I was really anti the idea before I had Ellen, then when I saw how little it bothered her I realised how daft I had been!

It's another debate for another thread but I've only ever watched one episode and it left me feeling angry, upset and a bit sick. I know some things are said and done for dramatic effect but I did not find it inspiring, heartwarming or any of the things I see and hear other people say about this programme. I was inwardly screaming. Maybe it's just me.

 

[JillA]

Quote from the vet who dealt with one of my feral cats who stopped weight bearing on one leg "They are all three legged animals with a spare so we don't get rid of the spare in case they need it " So long as the spare doesn't get in the way or become a seat of infection I'd let him learn to adjust and see how it goes

 

[ester]

My personal opinion is that for the most part it has improved over time, I can remember having more issues with the first series than I do these days where I agree with perhaps 60% of the work. A lot of the owners are still very irritating though.

 

[pippixox]

I think that they decided to creat a stump as he still had some of the upper big pad left- which is now on the bottom of the stump. But yes I'm not sure if long term it would be better to just have a full amputation.
He is going to see my friend a Physio on Thursday
Just want as little upheaval as possible for him at the moment as he has been through an ordeal. But at the same time no point delaying inevitable

I will look into supplements

 

[mynutmeg]

From previous experience I think dogs and cats do better on 3 legs than they do on 3 and a bit legs.
I would look in to a full amputation or some sort of prothesis. I would also look at putting him on a joint supplement like yumove now.

Agree with this - although your later post saying he has some pad left makes it better as he won't rub skin raw with that.

My personal opinion is that for the most part it has improved over time, I can remember having more issues with the first series than I do these days where I agree with perhaps 60% of the work. A lot of the owners are still very irritating though.

I wasn't a fan of the first series but having watched later series he does amazing work for some creatures who the only other option would be euthanasia. There are a few where I don't get why they owner doesn't just go for amputation but I've also seen him refuse to operate because he feels it wouldn't be in the best interests of the animal.
I think it's one of those things that he's an amazing surgeon and often then best surgeons come across as abrupt. I fully appreciate that some people don't like the work her does but it's filtering across to humans as well and bringing some amazing advances and some of his work is getting animals out of massive pain from spinal stenosis and similar. There's now the possibility (in australia) for human amputees to get a similar bone implant prosthesis to the one he developed nearly 10 years ago

 

[ester]

I mostly can't understand why anyone with a large breed dog with bone cancer won't either lop the leg off or PTS, rather than having a bit of leg chopped off, replaced with metal, to find 6 months later it's riddled anyway.

 

[{97702}]

I mostly can't understand why anyone with a large breed dog with bone cancer won't either lop the leg off or PTS, rather than having a bit of leg chopped off, replaced with metal, to find 6 months later it's riddled anyway.

I cannot understand why anyone with ANY dog with bone cancer would not PTS immediately, it is THE most painful disease a dog can have and anyone who does anything other than PTS immediately does not have the best interests of their dog at heart IMO....

 

[{97702}]

I wasn't a fan of the first series but having watched later series he does amazing work for some creatures who the only other option would be euthanasia. There are a few where I don't get why they owner doesn't just go for amputation but I've also seen him refuse to operate because he feels it wouldn't be in the best interests of the animal.
I think it's one of those things that he's an amazing surgeon and often then best surgeons come across as abrupt. I fully appreciate that some people don't like the work her does but it's filtering across to humans as well and bringing some amazing advances and some of his work is getting animals out of massive pain from spinal stenosis and similar. There's now the possibility (in australia) for human amputees to get a similar bone implant prosthesis to the one he developed nearly 10 years ago

I fully accept this isn't an answer purely directed at me, so apologies if it sounds like I am taking it personally as that is not the intention, but quite honestly I could not give a flying **** whether he comes across as abrupt or any other way, I care about whether the alternative to euthanasia is the best option for the dog not the owner.... and quite often, in my opinion, it isn't. I also do not advocate 'practising' on dogs so the surgery can be used for humans, but that is a very personal view as well

 

[CorvusCorax]

Hear hear. And as long as we're clear...what we are saying is, this is experimentation on people's pets, to improve treatment in humans?

 

[mynutmeg]

I mostly can't understand why anyone with a large breed dog with bone cancer won't either lop the leg off or PTS, rather than having a bit of leg chopped off, replaced with metal, to find 6 months later it's riddled anyway.

Completely agree with this I have to say - this is one procedure I'm not a fan off because aside from anything else the fact that the implants are custom delays the surgery. For me this would be an instant PTS or amputation.

I fully accept this isn't an answer purely directed at me, so apologies if it sounds like I am taking it personally as that is not the intention, but quite honestly I could not give a flying **** whether he comes across as abrupt or any other way, I care about whether the alternative to euthanasia is the best option for the dog not the owner.... and quite often, in my opinion, it isn't. I also do not advocate 'practising' on dogs so the surgery can be used for humans, but that is a very personal view as well

Nope, not aimed at anyone
I fully agree that anything done should always be in the best interests of the animal and not the owner - it's why I didn't/wouldn't have hip replacements done on my collie dog despite the fact that I'm going to have to pts in the next month or two vs having the surgery she'd probably go for years yet, however for that dog, she wouldn't have mentally coped with the surgery and recovery as very very highly strung and didn't cope well even with a lump removal. But a calmer dog who'd cope mentally with the surgery I'd go for it for sure.

Hear hear. And as long as we're clear...what we are saying is, this is experimentation on people's pets, to improve treatment in humans?

My intention was never to suggest that experiementation on pets should be used to develop surgeries for humans - that is completely unethical and quite simply wrong! However the fact remains that there is very much a 2 way stream between human and veterinary medicine and surgery with advances in the one crossing over to the other and benefitting both humans and animals. Many drugs are the same between humans and animals. There are many surgeries and drugs developed for animals that have benefited humans and the other way round where many human advances have crossed into animal medicine

I don't agree with everything he has done and that is a big problem with pushing boundaries and developing new techniques is that sometimes you get the judgement call wrong but at the same time there are many pets with very very good outcomes due to his work

 

[CorvusCorax]

I have absolutely no issue with anything that you've said...I just hope that people are aware of what they are watching and what is being presented as entertainment, things that may be frowned upon in another context.

Apologies for derailing the OP.

 

[mynutmeg]

I have absolutely no issue with anything that you've said...I just hope that people are aware of what they are watching and what is being presented as entertainment, things that may be frowned upon in another context.

Apologies for derailing the OP.

agree completly - I'm coming at it from a medical background so potentially see it differently to a lot of people, and a better awareness of the complications, side effects and consequences of what he does

ditto appologies

 

[Aru]

How long ago was it amputated? What exactly is left?

It really it depends on how far along he is post surgery.
If hes only been a semi tripod for a few weeks he is still adjusting so time and physio will be the way to go...though he may need pain relief to help as he "finds his feet" again. If its been several months and hes fully healed I would be more concerned.
If he's fully healed can he actually hold his bodyweight on his new semipaw?

Dogs take most of their bodyweight on their forelegs,so these amputations tend to cause bigger issues with the remaining foreleg then loosing a hindleg.

It depends how far into recovery he is...and how much mobility can be expected of whats left of the leg.
If he can bear weight on the paw a good physio is going to be essential going forward in building up the power and managing the muscle pain and strain in that leg so hes doesnt continue to compensate with his good foot.
If he cannot bear weight on that leg...and its full healed and ment to be functional...there may be issues.

 

[Aru]

On the side track..I'm a massive fan of Noel Fitzpatrick and if I still lived in Ireland/the uk would bring my pets to him for complex orthopedic procedures.

IMO He has done more for advancing vet med in the last few years then anyone else I can think of and his dedication and willingness to think outside the box has added a whole new level of options to previously no hope cases and that show has improved the level of expections that people have for their pets quality of life.

Why have a dog struggling to walk with the likes of a limb deformity when it can be fixed and made functional and non painful? Id rather see those animals fixed then euthanised or living a life of chronic pain personallly and the advancements and new procdures the likes of fitzpatricks and other referral centres are doing are the reason fixing those dogs is now an option... hips, shoulder, elbows....replacements used to not be an option for dogs...we just had to manage their pain and try to give a good qol.....its good to see that medicine is moving into a higher standard then that. Not everyone may want the option for their pets and for some pets temperemnt other issues it may never be an optiin....but personally I do want more options and would be willing to pay for it if it improved quality of life enough to make the recovery time worth it.

The level of care his patients receive is at the same(and scarily) in some cases better then human standard.
Some of what he has done may be ethically questionable to some.....but the paincontrol and level of care post op given to his patients is (sadly)beyond the norm in veterinary medicine.
The show has only recently started to show euthanasia's being preformed on air...but its always an option and in some cases the only one even at a centre like Fitzpatricks.

But if no one pushes forward for advancements.... medicine will never advance and thats just as true of vet med as human medicine.
Its also always an owners choice not the vets,as to what they are willing to do and some people will not euthanise even when quality of life is poor..at least at fitzpatricks the animals will receive optimum standard of care,good paincontrol and the possibilty of a good quality of life if the procedure is a success.

Id rather see a dog with a complex orthopedic fix then amputation any day and it tends to be finances that often decide the options.They are better on 4 legs.They survive and do well on 3...but biomechanically 4 is always better.

The cancer dogs are somewhat different.....but again comes down to qol.
not everyone can face euthanising a healthy looking dog because its got bone cancer even when they know the facts about the disease....most have lung mets when the disease is discovered even if we cant see them on xray yet and the long term prognosis for this is poor.the bone tumour sites are weak and often fracture with no warning.the bone tumours are incredibly painful and in humans considered near unmanageable pain with drugs alone.
Are those dogs better off on painrelief until they get end stage lung cancer or a pathological fractures at the tumour site?
Or are they better having the affected bone removed so they keep the leg( in a state of the art hospital with human level pain control post surgery)but loose the tumour that causes the pain...and going on chemo until or if the lung cancer begins to cause issues?
These dogs have a much longer life expectation now then osteosarcs used to be given.....and the earlier caught the longer they live.They are c.ted at fitzpatricks to check for spread into the lungs before surgery as well....and the recommendations change it mets are there.
I dont think I would do it to my own dog.osterosarc=pts on the table for me personally....but if i wanted to give them a chance i think fitzpatricks option of a bone replacement and chemo is technically ethically and functionally better for the dog to live with then pain meds and wait or amputation and medication plus or minus chemo...and those are the currently the only options.

 

[Moobli]

Look forward to seeing pics of your new boy OP (and happy to share the photo if you want to send it to me again).

I would prefer to see how your lad gets on once he has adjusted to the partial amputation before making any big decisions re: amputation. Be guided by the rescue centre he came from and by your vet as to what is the most appropriate way forward. Would a dog boot help in his case? We have a year old sheepdog who had a part of a rear pad/toes chewed off by his mother as a newborn. He was hopping on three legs more often than putting all four feet down until we bought a dog boot and now he is almost always on four legs.

I have tried different types but the Trixie boot is the one that has stood the test of time best and gives the best level of protection.

http://zoomadog.co.uk/products/417-Walker-Active-Boots/?gclid=CLzvp43gntQCFYgW0wodqKEOJw

With regards to Noel Fitzpatrick, I think he is an amazing surgeon and also appears to be a very genuine and lovely person. He is passionate and compassionate as well as being highly skilled. Unlike others opinions, I believe he is only interested in the end result and quality of life of the animal and not performing unnecessary and expensive operations just for the benefit of the owners. There have been a number of occasions where he has said that the kindest and only real option is to have a pet euthanised. He is realistic. I love the fact he is pushing the boundaries in animal medicine and offering treatments that before now were never considered possible. Rather than "testing" his often revolutionary procedures on animals in the hope they can then be used on people hs is campaigning to break down the barriers between human and animal medicine so that EVERYONE can have access to the same treatments ie. treatments that are already possible in humans being made possible in animals also.

I don't always necessarily agree that I would make the same choice as some of the owners who are put in the difficult position of risking a dangerous operation with a long recovery period, but do feel good that they have that choice.

 

[Clodagh]

I don't watch the Supervet programmes, but have done. There are only so many ops that are the same I can watch. I think what he does is more positive than not, overall, I also find him quite cute...sorry!
Some things, the dogs should have been PTS most defiantely, IMO.
I would never give a dog chemo, make is appallingly ill so you get an extra month or two of life from it? Never. Humans get to make an informed choice, dogs don't.

I also have no problem with any treatment furthering human medicine. How many veteran soldiers with no limbs could benefit with an implant? I bet they would be happy to be the guinea pigs, but English law doesn't allow it.

 

[Fellewell]

Like all medics he's also a scientist and like all scientists his training leads him to push boundaries. You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs unfortunately. Did you see the Doberman on last night's prog? Truly amazing, the dog couldn't even move its tail and I thought the recovery would be impossible. The man is a genius IMO

 

[CorvusCorax]

Nothing can make change my innate reaction to the things I have seen on programme.

I am just pointing out that a good looking, charming vet on TV is being lauded for things in public that an anonymous bod in a lab coat would probably have been derided for years ago. It's not something I particularly want to watch on television but it's obviously great that veterinary and medical advancements are being made.

 

[ester]

Dog chemo is not the same with the same side effects as humans, I thought the same but was corrected.