Turmeric

[sam72431]

I've read quite a few different articles about how effective this can be for tendon healing. I've used it on my older mare for her arthritis and it definitely made a big difference.

Question I have is as it's anti inflammatory would you use it following an op as vet has said tendon needs to swell a bit to heal so not sure if this would be something for later on or during initial healing? Or not at all?

Thanks

 

[Auslander]

To feed a sufficient amount of curcumin (the anti inflammatory element in turmeric) you'd have to feed about 1/2 a kilo of turmeric to your horse every day. There's no evidence that it has any therapeutic benefit to horses fed at lower levels, despite it being the "Miracle Cure" that everyone was into last year.

There's a lot more clinical evidence of the power of the placebo effect than there is of the efficacy of turmeric!

 

[Polos Mum]

There's a lot more clinical evidence of the power of the placebo effect than there is of the efficacy of turmeric!

The USA have started doing placebo surgery for certain shoulder / knee strains and it's shown to cure as many people as the actual real surgery !! (They give the patient a general anaesthetic, cut into their shoulder then stitch them back up again, tell them to rest and do physio - low and behold the 'surgery' is a success!) The power of the mind - and some basic physio is amazing !!

 

[sam72431]

Thank you I'm not sure with turmeric it definitely helped my older mare and I've also read a study on using it on rats with tendon injuries they had created (not so nice) rats were euthanised after a certain period of time and those that had the turmeric had made a better recovery than those that hadn't. Poor rats!! But I think I agree with you that the amount you have to give is a lot for it to work especially on a horse

 

[windand rain]

Works in small amounts for my mare not sure how horses react to placebo but if she has 25 grms of tumeric she is sound in she doesnt she is lame (very lame). She is on no other medication so it must be the turmeric. As to your question I would feed after initial recovery had started. Another topic for research i think perhaps

 

[sam72431]

Thank you. I'm the same as you my other mare is sound so can't be anything else! Would you wait until after initial month or so and then try it or wait until the three months box rest is up? She has had annular ligament desmotomy, manica flexoria removed and had two tears in ddft! Poor pony

 

[windand rain]

Same surgery as my old girl had I would wait until the initial healing is over and stitches are out then start it. She did have spells of intermittent lameness after the surgery but it was 15 years ago so things have improved a lot since then. The turmeric resolved what ever was causing the intermittent lameness which returns if the turmeric is missed out. I know as the temporary person forgot it while I was on holiday for a few days and she was lame on my return sound again two days later once back on the turmeric she had no other medication then either

 

[JillA]

Turmeric is one of those generic substances that no-one could gain enough benefit fro the expense of a decent clinical trial. Personally I think there is enough anecdotal evidence to say it does have benefits (you can't really have a placebo effect on an animal, that depends on them knowing and expecting a benefit). I would use it in the form recommended (with black pepper and oil for proper absorption) because it may work and if it doesn't, all you will have lost is a few ££££s. Just one word of caution - there is supposed to be a link with gastric ulcers so best avoid if you have a horse prone to them.
Your vet is right though - the body brings white blood cells to the site to heal, and you don't want to get rid of them, especially in the initial stages

 

[Fransurrey]

I can't see turmeric being enough to prevent post-op inflammation, but I would exercise caution and hold off for a bit. I fed it to my old boy as a preventative measure, rather than for pain relief, for the reasons outlined above.

I did have a turmeric smoothie for depression once and I was high as a kite for about half an hour, so it was definitely effective; however it tasted so damn foul I'd rather take the sertraline!

 

[Nicnac]

If you do decide to use it, check with your vet first as it can react with other medication.

 

[ThreeWBs]

I have a 17hh Belgian WB that was professionally diagnosed via nerve blocks and x-rays with severe coffin joint arthritis and low ringbone at the age of 21. We medicated his joints 3 times. It worked for a shorter period of time with each administration, so I was told by the vet to bute to keep him field sound and to look at saying my goodbyes by the end of summer. I buted him for a few months, which worked on and off. He never broke out of a walk and it was hard to see him being so slow and obviously in pain.

I knew I could never 'fix' his ailments, but I wanted to try everything for him, so we started on turmeric (I am in no way a flower power, crystal healing kind of person!).

It took around 1 month to get into his system and oh.my.god did it work! I watched him have his first trot in months, following shortly by a canter, then a gallop.

Albeit, he is never 100% sound, he is happy to charge round his field like an idiot, bucking, rearing and leaping like a 2 year old. He has worse days than others, but he is now 27 years old and still taking trips to the beach (photos are May 2019, 6 years after his terminal diagnosis). He is on nothing but turmeric powder, so yes, I can recommend it for arthritis. I have not used it for any horse with a tendon injury.

 

[HobleytheTB]

Just want to point out that the placebo affect would be on the owner, not the horse itself! You expect your horse to be more sound/ less stiff etc on turmeric, and so that's what you see (not saying the above posters are incorrect about their own horses!).

The real test would for owners to not know whether their horse was being fed turmeric or not, and then get them to assess horses lameness etc before and after treatment and look for a significant difference between the two condition groups. This is very hard to do as you'd need to be able to control for other factors that affect things like arthritis, such as weather, temperature, amount of time in box vs turned out, etc etc etc. And of course, often times lameness etc does just get better with rest and time. Until there's a decent study on the affects of giving small doses of turmeric I'd exercise caution in using it.

 

[ThreeWBs]

Just want to point out that the placebo affect would be on the owner, not the horse itself! You expect your horse to be more sound/ less stiff etc on turmeric, and so that's what you see (not saying the above posters are incorrect about their own horses!).

The real test would for owners to not know whether their horse was being fed turmeric or not, and then get them to assess horses lameness etc before and after treatment and look for a significant difference between the two condition groups. This is very hard to do as you'd need to be able to control for other factors that affect things like arthritis, such as weather, temperature, amount of time in box vs turned out, etc etc etc. And of course, often times lameness etc does just get better with rest and time. Until there's a decent study on the affects of giving small doses of turmeric I'd exercise caution in using it.

I had the same thoughts towards it. Is it just me wanting to see him better on turmeric? Is he really better? I live on a small island which is often cut off from the UK due to storms which stops the ships and planes coming in with supplies. I ran out of turmeric for a month. After about day 5 of no turmeric (or any other meds) he was back to pottering, toe pointing and hobbling with his front feet, he stayed in walk and was generally unhappy in himself. Once we got our supplies back in, he went back on turmeric and was his 90% sound self again. I don't know if it's coincidental, but it appears to work for me, his vet, his physio, his chiro and my farrier.

Edit: We have a UK specialist vet come over a few times a year, he was the one who took additional x-rays and told me to 'make plans'. He could not believe the difference between the 2013 lame horse and the 2014 sound horse that was on nothing but turmeric. He was trotted up, trotted in a circle on hard and soft.

 

[windand rain]

Perhaps but to go from sound to hopping lame in 4 days and back to sound in 4 days with the only change being the turmeric I will stick with feeding it. I will add that the old horse we have on retirement livery came to wait to die to give him a summer on grass and be PTS, he could barely walk and looked sad. That was 2 years ago within a month he was galloping about, he now keeps my yearling company and they play and run about every day. He comes flat out gallop for his dinner and is full of fun and does airs above the ground to show off. He is a long way from sound but is comfortable and happy only change is Turmeric again 25 grms so not huge amounts

 

[JillA]

I think extending the placebo effect to owners perceptions is stretching it a bit????

 

[sam72431]

Yeah I don't see how anyone could will there horse to feel better that much that they go sound? Very interesting that yours had same op and it worked though. I think I'll wait for stitches and initial swelling to go then put her on it. At least turmeric is much more cost effective than many of the other 'miracle cures'. I asked vet about MSM and other tendon and joint type supplements and he said it's best to save my money for injections directly into tendon or muscle as the body simply can't up take through the gut the parts of these supplements that it needs or collagen or the amino acids. Thanks everyone

 

[ycbm]

I think extending the placebo effect to owners perceptions is stretching it a bit????

Not at all. Perceptions can't be accurately measured and can be easily influenced.

Surely we've all seen people say things like 'my horse goes so much better in/on/with this bridle/bit/saddle/supplement/feed/shoes/trim/training method when we can't see any difference at all?

 

[HobleytheTB]

Yeah I don't see how anyone could will there horse to feel better that much that they go sound?

If this was in reference to my point about the placebo effect, that's definitely not what I was saying. Obviously lame vs sound is extreme! I am talking more about subtle changes or improvements.

The other point being is that the placebo effect isn't necessarily about 'willing' a horse better, it's more an unconscious assumption that a drug or treatment will work, leading you to perceive an improvement. Loads of studies on this show that humans are susceptible to seeing or feeling positive effects of a drug with zero medical properties, e.g. feeling that pain is reduced after taking a 'painkiller', which is really just a sugar pill.

So in terms of turmeric, if you assume/ believe you will see some kind of positive effect, you may then see one. It's not about 'wanting' to see an improvement, you really do see it, even if it's not there. The human brain is quite susceptible to suggestion in these situations. I'm not saying that the anecdotal evidence is necessarily wrong, just to take them with a pinch of salt and keep an open mind.

I think extending the placebo effect to owners perceptions is stretching it a bit????

Why?? If humans can be 'tricked' by the placebo effect on perception of pain in your own body, which you can physically feel, why can't that be extended to your perception of a horses pain, where the indications can be quite subtle?

 

[windand rain]

Not at all. Perceptions can't be accurately measured and can be easily influenced.

Surely we've all seen people say things like 'my horse goes so much better in/on/with this bridle/bit/saddle/supplement/feed/shoes/trim/training method when we can't see any difference at all?

Yes but not from lame to sound anyone who can make a lame horse sound just by imagining it is blessed indeed. There are some people who believe that fixing a bad back with a finger and thumb so anything is possible

 

[HobleytheTB]

Yes but not from lame to sound anyone who can make a lame horse sound just by imagining it is blessed indeed. There are some people who believe that fixing a bad back with a finger and thumb so anything is possible

But this is an appeal to extremes!!!

I don't think any is suggesting that you can be tricked into thinking a hopping lame horse is 100% sound, that's not the point. More subtle, non-quantifiable improvements can be down to your own biases or preconceived ideas.

 

[ycbm]

Yes but not from lame to sound anyone who can make a lame horse sound just by imagining it is blessed indeed. There are some people who believe that fixing a bad back with a finger and thumb so anything is possible

Nobody was taking about lame to sound. More lame to less lame, more happy to less happy, yes.

I have, on the other hand, seen plenty of people who convince themselves that their clearly lame horses are sound. So I wouldn't rule it out from placebo effect either.


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[southerncomfort]

In the small experiment involving humans it was found that the turmeric had to be heated I.e put in food and cooked, otherwise it had no effect at all.

They found no evidence at all to support the anti-inflammatory claims but they did find some evidence that it could help play a role in helping prevent some types of cancer but much more research is needed.

 

[RHM]

Not going to dive into the efficacy of turmeric. Just to answer your question OP inflammation is there for a reason and plays a vital role in the healing process. It is only long term inflammation that is harmful. If I was you I would hold off starting it until a bit later. I have used it on my boy who had ligament damage and it was the only thing that made a jot of difference for him! I know there’s isn’t much science behind it but for the price I thought it would be worth a punt!

 

[sam72431]

Thanks rhm yes going to hold off until initial swelling is gone then give it a go as you say for the price it's worth having a go!

 

[cundlegreen]

I suggest that you join the Turmeric Users Group on FB and message Doug English who is a vet about this. He is one of the founders of the group and, as a vet, has been able to trial it for different things. I know that his suggestion of mixing turmeric powder with DMSO to apply topically on sarcoids is working very well on my youngster.