Turn on the haunches

[tigers_eye]

I'm trying to teach William this at the moment as we are supposed to perform it in public on Friday, but without much success so far! Does anyone have any wisdom to impart - at the moment if I ask too gently he just shuffles round in a circle, and if I ask too much he gets confused and thinks I'm asking for rein-back. Is there a way I can teach it to him from the ground possibley?

 

[Tempi]

do you mean like a walk pirouette? Where the front legs move in a circle and the back legs mark time on the spot?

 

[tigers_eye]

yup, but think you are technicly allowed up to a metre with the hindlegs depending which term they use. maybe... anyway, yes that movement please!

 

[tigers_eye]

In the test it's written "half turn about the haunches"

 

[ElleJS]

Its in that 2* test.... my mare was the same, she used to get it confused with rein back. No help i'm afraid, I now try and avoid any test with pirouettes in!

 

[LauraT]

Ok...is this the same as a piroette yea? (sorry for appalling spelling as i expect that is wrong). well i have a way of teaching this but it could be really hard to explain on here...but i will try my hardest!
i start off doing a large working piroette which is basically about a 10m cirle with the quarters in/or in traver...then wen they do that well i would ride a square shape, about a 20m square and on each corner ask them to do a 1/4 piroette by moving there front legs round and then walking straight onto the straight side of the square, then wen they get that i would do a half piroette on a straight line but making it larger to start with, to make sure then keep walking thru it.
so that is my way of training it...but like i say thats only right if a turn on the haunches is the same as a piorette or 1/2 piroette...which i think it is isnt it??!!

 

[tigers_eye]

Yes, and I used to love it on my other two, it was something they were actually good at! Oh well, looks like I'm back to my old tricks of trying to teach my horses new things a week before they have to do them in competition!

 

[LauraT]

ps. sometimes it helps wen u get to the final stage of actually doing it on a straight line to do it against a wall/side of arena to stop them falling out. then u can do a full one in the middle of the arena! hope that helps...but it only will i guess if u r talking about a piroette!!

 

[LauraT]

ive just taught my young horse to do it and that way worked really well. i had to teach my advanced one to do it as well, but he took a bit more time as he has ID and TB in him, which doesnt help!! especially wen it comes to dressage-ha ha!

 

[tigers_eye]

Oh yes, thanks, had forgotten about riding the square and doing it. He's got it on about a 10m circle, but smaller than that he loses forward movement so the square could well help him. Thanks!

 

[DollyPentreath]

Someone else in the IN at Mattingley I presume?

 

[Tempi]

I start it with quarters in then ask for Archie to step around his hind leg. Hes only doing 1/4 ones at the moment as hes far too clever for his own good and crosses over his hindlegs rather than marking time with them.

The hind legs can make a large (ish) semi circle, whilst the forelegs cross over in a larger semi circle.

I make sure ive collected the walk, use my outside rein to bring the shoulder over and round my inside leg, whilst using my outside leg to keep the quarters going (so they dont get fixed to the spot and just pivot which is incorrect) Make sure you walk straight away afterwards aswell.

hope that helps a bit.

 

[Santa_Claus]

For pirouettes (which at BD elementary are also allowed to be 'large') I was always taught to ask from a shoulder-in position rather than a travers.

Start by riding a square but for the last few strides before asking for the turn put into shoulder in then shorten the walk and ask him to turn with your outise leg. Have your outside leg slightly further back to control the haunches and also a schooling whip in your outside hand to 'tickle' him if required.

Always found it far far easier asking for it from shoulder-in than from travers.

Katie

 

[tigers_eye]

Hmmm see I've always been taught to go from travers. I will practice quarter turns on a square between now and then and we'll see what happens! Shaab - yes you are quite right, in the IN on Fri, SO excited about getting the top hat and tails out again it's untrue! I'm not shallow or anything!

 

[DressageChick]

I have been taught both ways from travers and from shoulder in. From shoulder in your already a bit round the pirouette when you start, but I think I prefer from travers.

As some of the others have said, start in travers on a circle and bring the circle in and keep the quarters in, making the circle smaller. My trainer says keep the shoulders out, which really helps me get the right feeling, but if you just keep the positioning and bring the circle smaller you will have the start of a pirouette, outside leg to control quarters and inside leg (with outside) the ensure back legs keep stepping and dont get stuck

 

[Santa_Claus]

Must be the difference between dressage peeps and eventers

All the instructors I have had have always made me go from the shoulder-ni and this is why there was such a major fuss about Piouettes being at Elementary level BD but Shoulder-in taken out at the same level which is normally a pre-requisite!!

 

[cazza]

Ok this will probably not help you one iota! as ours are trained for that lovely turn on a sixpence polo style. The way we ask, and the horse will keep turning till you release is as follows: ask horse to start to take one step backwards, once you feel the weight shift off the forehand and this is usually when the first front leg is about to lift you then ask with tapping the outside shoulder with your stick, we back this up with inside leg on the girth outside infront of the girth, move both hands holding the backwards pressure across the withers, thus keeping the horse straight but stepping over with it's front legs and keeping the back leg planted. Horse should feel like it is beginning to skip around. Does help if you have someone on the floor to help.

 

[JLav]

I use a mixture of both s-in and travers depending on how each horse responds to the training. The problem with starting in travers is that the shoulders have to make a much bigger step to the side to catch up with the quarters which are effectively leading. This is not so much of a problem when only doing 1/4s but can make the 1/2s more difficult. To ride it from a shoulder-in is more classically correct as the pirouette is essentially a half pass round a very small circle but without the hinds crossing. However some horses seem to understand it better when started from travers.

 

[Partoow]

I think the key to this movement is to understand what it is for in terms of training. Then it is possible to understand why the horse finds it so diffificult to perform correctly and then how we as riders can develope the exercise.
The correct way to approach is in shoulder-in. This is because you are going to ask the horse to mark time [almost ] with the inside hind and connect that with a turning outside shoulder. so by approaching in shoulder in you already have the shoulder in advance of the hind leg and you are connecting the activity of the hind leg in a forward way with the outside rein.
To come to it in travers you are always playing 'catch up' with the shoulder, it also does not encourage or develope a forward reaction in the hind leg.
The rider needs to make sure that the inside leg keeps the rhythm of the walk, the shoulder-in will aid with the collection in the walk and help prepare the inside hind leg for carrying more weight and increase the hocks activity. It also gives you the correct flexion.
Once you have the shoulder in and active walk steps you keep the outside leg behind the girth to hold the outside hind leg on to the movement, so it does not step out, a fault commonly seen in this movement. you then imagine that the outside rein carries the outside shoulder in the dirrection of the turn , in the first one or two steps this is the 'dominant ask, the feeling you the rider should have is that you turn around your inside seat bone taking his outside shoulder as you do as well as light tapping with the inside leg to help generate the same reaction in the horses inside hindleg but alwys with the shoulder in advance of the inside hind and the inside hind always, at any point be able to step forward and out of the movement,this also, in the 2nd half of the half pirouette where the hand slightly gives forward as the hind leg is activated more into the contact. it is at this point that most pirouettes fail or stick because the rider forgets this forward feel to the movement and the hind leg , under load will try and escape. It is also the moment that the outside leg needs to hold the outside hind leg on so that it does not do the stepping out thing.You will then have the feeling of the pirouette always being active and forward.
At first keep the hind leg on a half circle thats not too small so that you do not over stress the hind leg and cause a need for the horse to escape , it also gives you , the rider time to get your co-ordination together so that you are more able to help when you take the pirouette smaller.
This movement therefore developes and tests the connection between the inside hind leg and the outside rein and for you the rider it tests your ability to keep the balance , rhythm and suppleness at every moment and step in the pirouette. A half pirouette should take about 4 to 5 steps .
i hope that makes sense good luck with it. It is a very useful exercise but dont keep on and on with it. Start it on your 'easy' side , this is usually the right but be careful on this rein that they do stay in the shoulder in as you approach as they like to 'curl' up a bit on this side and the flexion is not always easy to keep.

 

[tigers_eye]

Wow, thanks all for your help, especially for your very detailed one partoow. I will keep you updated on our progress. I did think it was interesting to see the different ideas, and interesting to read cazza's reply and the different theory behind the pirouette for the different disciplines.

 

[Halfstep]

What a wonderful explanation! That's a brilliant description of the movement and the aids. Many thanks partoow.

 

[Equibeau]

Off to try that now!!

 

[josephinebutter2]

I was always taught from shoulder in - mainly coz it makes it easier for the horse to understand what you want - whether this is "correct" or not is another matter.

 

[tigers_eye]

Well we got quarter turns this evening! And a couple where we ended up doing abit more than a quarter. To be honest I think we were describing quite a large circle with the hinds but the feel was right. And yes, going out of shoulder in seemed to work well. He just blocked a bit sometimes (both ways) in my left hand, which is something I struggle with, but if I really concentrated and made sure I didn't go picking a fight with that hand he was alright! So many many thanks all! Will let you know how it goes in test!