TWH - how do they assess lameness?

[Gingerwitch]

As the title or dont they give a stuff?
I know how many threads are on here about lameness, bare foot, gait analysis, abscesses etc.
Then these cruel vile individuals do all sorts to the poor animals hooves and front legs. Do they even care if the animal is lame or not.
I still struggle with this whole industry.

 

[Identityincrisis]

It would appear not. To do this to an animal you would have very little regard for other aspects of it's wellbeing

 

[shamrock2021]

Actually these horses are born gated so it not trained into them they are are a unique gated breed . Unfortunately There is people who do abuse these horses so they have a more dramatic gate which is very sad and should be banned.

 

[Cortez]

Actually these horses are born gated so it not trained into them they are are a unique gated breed . Unfortunately There is people who do abuse these horses so they have a more dramatic gate which is very sad and should be banned.

I have worked out of a Tennessee Walking Horse barn in the US (in Tennessee, actually) and witnessed what is done to these lovely natured horses first hand, it is beyond vile and openly condoned by the people associated with the Big Lick shows. There are other people (the flat-shod or natural-gaited trainers) who are trying to turn the culture away from the outright cruelty that exists. There was a bill sent to congress that was to outlaw soring and other horrible practices, but Trump never signed it - there is a lot of money around TWH showing.

 

[P.forpony]

Lameness is an abnormal gait or stance of an animal that is the result of dysfunction of the locomotor system. In the horse, it is most commonly caused by pain, but can be due to neurologic or mechanical dysfunction.

Quick copy and paste definition.
Short answer, by this standard, they’re all lame.

Before anyone shoots me down I’m fairly familiar with gaited horses. It’s the exaggeration of these paces beyond what is natural for the breed, for the show ring, that in my eyes is abnormal and therefore indicative of lameness.

 

[Cortez]

Lameness is an abnormal gait or stance of an animal that is the result of dysfunction of the locomotor system. In the horse, it is most commonly caused by pain, but can be due to neurologic or mechanical dysfunction.

Quick copy and paste definition.
Short answer, by this standard, they’re all lame.

Before anyone shoots me down I’m fairly familiar with gaited horses. It’s the exaggeration of these paces beyond what is natural for the breed, for the show ring, that in my eyes is abnormal and therefore indicative of lameness.

Sorry, what? I understand what you are getting at but it doesn't really address the point. Almost every horse has it's paces altered from what is natural for the purposes of competition, this is not what is understood as lameness.

 

[shortstuff99]

Sorry, what? I understand what you are getting at but it doesn't really address the point. Almost every horse has it's paces altered from what is natural for the purposes of competition, this is not what is understood as lameness.

I guess it's the dysfunction caused by pain part. The TWH gaits are created by pain and deformation not training?

 

[Cortez]

I guess it's the dysfunction caused by pain part. The TWH gaits are created by pain and deformation not training?

Certainly the Big Lick stuff is utterly unnatural and most often produced by horrible methods, but they are not all lame. I have taken horses off stacks and ridden them right away and they were sound.

 

[shortstuff99]

Certainly the Big Lick stuff is utterly unnatural and most often produced by horrible methods, but they are not all lame. I have taken horses off stacks and ridden them right away and they were sound.

I was just guessing the interpretation. Still can't be pleasant for the poor horses.

 

[P.forpony]

I have taken horses off stacks and ridden them right away and they were sound.

That’s pretty much what I was getting at. Obviously you can alter a horses gait through pain, but by putting a horse on stacks you’re changing the structure of the lower limb and essentially causing a mechanical dysfunction, which changes the gait.
By the definition used that would be classed as lameness.

Although I suppose there is a grey area between exaggerated and abnormal. Practically synonymous but with very different positive and negative connotations.

I’d be interested to hear though, when the stacks were removed, how much of a difference you noticed in their gaits?

 

[Gingerwitch]

Certainly the Big Lick stuff is utterly unnatural and most often produced by horrible methods, but they are not all lame. I have taken horses off stacks and ridden them right away and they were sound.

So do they live in stacks all the time ? Or is it just for the shows ?

 

[Marigold4]

Certainly the Big Lick stuff is utterly unnatural and most often produced by horrible methods, but they are not all lame. I have taken horses off stacks and ridden them right away and they were sound.

You participated in this?!?

 

[Widgeon]

You participated in this?!?

Cortez said she worked "out of" a TWH barn. That is quite different to necessarily being implicated in these practices, which she has described as "vile". Asking a question in such an accusatory tone isn't likely to take this thread anywhere productive.

 

[tristar]

Lameness is an abnormal gait or stance of an animal that is the result of dysfunction of the locomotor system. In the horse, it is most commonly caused by pain, but can be due to neurologic or mechanical dysfunction.

Quick copy and paste definition.
Short answer, by this standard, they’re all lame.

Before anyone shoots me down I’m fairly familiar with gaited horses. It’s the exaggeration of these paces beyond what is natural for the breed, for the show ring, that in my eyes is abnormal and therefore indicative of lameness.

indicative of { or likely to cause,} by induced mechanical dysfunction, i agree with you

 

[Cortez]

You participated in this?!?

Of course I bl**dy didn't! I rented stalls in a TWH barn and trained (dressage) my own and clients horses from there, including several gaited horses (TWH's and Saddlebreds). I had some straight from Big Lick trainers (and yes, they keep them in the stacks all the time, as well as tail sets, tie-backs, the lot), and they went on to make lovely leisure horses, indeed a couple of the Saddlebreds competed quite successfully in dressage. If I could have a TWH now I'd be delighted; lovely, kind, brave horses.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Of course I bl**dy didn't! I rented stalls in a TWH barn and trained (dressage) my own and clients horses from there, including several gaited horses (TWH's and Saddlebreds). I had some straight from Big Lick trainers (and yes, they keep them in the stacks all the time, as well as tail sets, tie-backs, the lot), and they went on to make lovely leisure horses, indeed a couple of the Sa6ddlebreds competed quite successfully in dressage. If I could have a TWH now I'd be delighted; lovely, kind, brave horses.

That's even more shocking to me, those poor wee animals.is there working life much shorter due to what they endure ?
I am just so flabbergasted that the people involved cannot see the cruelty of what they do.
I really despise people sometimes, as they appear to be so up front about it.

 

[Marigold4]

Cortez said she worked "out of" a TWH barn. That is quite different to necessarily being implicated in these practices, which she has described as "vile". Asking a question in such an accusatory tone isn't likely to take this thread anywhere productive.

The use of two question marks and an exclamation mark was meant to express surprise

 

[Cortez]

That's even more shocking to me, those poor wee animals.is there working life much shorter due to what they endure ?
I am just so flabbergasted that the people involved cannot see the cruelty of what they do.
I really despise people sometimes, as they appear to be so up front about it.

Yes, they don't have long careers in the showring, and a lot of those poor horses you see are just 2 year olds - they say "You have to start 'em young 'cos they don't last"! I think many of the people involved with TWH's are just plain ignorant, and many don't care about the horses at all, it's about the money.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I imported into Ireland from Tennessee the only (so far I think that still stands) TWH in this country. He was neither lame nor deformed! He had already won at impressive levels as a flat shod TWH (Pleasure Horse) in Tennessee and surrounding areas before he came to me as a 3 year old. I would rather he had not been broken to ride quite so young but that is the American culture and not part of this discussion. His gait was completely natural to him and it was naturally exuberant, very fast but calm and floating - a real champagne ride. He was keg shod when he arrived but I had his shoes removed for a few months and his natural gait was still exactly the same with or without shoes.

Please be aware not ALL TWH owners and breeders participate in the cruel practice of soring and stacking that you see in performance TWH competition. Many, many of them like the breeder I bought my lovely boy off have campaigned for years to try and outlaw the abuse, and sometimes by doing so they have had their own lives and their families lives threatened. As Cortez said there is a LOT of money in the Big Lick industry and I would add, a lot of very unpleasant and dangerous people too.

 

[conniegirl]

A horse that is lame on all 4 can look sound

 

[Cortez]

I imported into Ireland from Tennessee the only (so far I think that still stands) TWH in this country. He was neither lame nor deformed! He had already won at impressive levels as a flat shod TWH (Pleasure Horse) in Tennessee and surrounding areas before he came to me as a 3 year old. I would rather he had not been broken to ride quite so young but that is the American culture and not part of this discussion. His gait was completely natural to him and it was naturally exuberant, very fast but calm and floating - a real champagne ride. He was keg shod when he arrived but I had his shoes removed for a few months and his natural gait was still exactly the same with or without shoes.

Please be aware not ALL TWH owners and breeders participate in the cruel practice of soring and stacking that you see in performance TWH competition. Many, many of them like the breeder I bought my lovely boy off have campaigned for years to try and outlaw the abuse, and sometimes by doing so they have had their own lives and their families lives threatened. As Cortez said there is a LOT of money in the Big Lick industry and I would add, a lot of very unpleasant and dangerous people too.

Oh! I really would like to meet up and have a chat: I'd heard that there was a TWH in Ireland (many years ago), I absolutely love them and would have another like a shot.

I could tell some horrifying stories about the awful people involved in the game and the dodgy things they got up to......

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

It was a good few years back now - I think around about 2005 I imported him so he was just up the road from you for a couple of years until unfortunately due to personal circumstances beyond my control I had to sell him - this is the man himself. We must meet up after all this C19 stuff and have a chat .

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

A horse that is lame on all 4 can look sound

With respect I can tell a sound TWH from an unsound TWH if it is lame on one leg or all 4, and not sure what your point is?

 

[ycbm]

It was a good few years back now - I think around about 2005 I imported him so he was just up the road from you for a couple of years until unfortunately due to personal circumstances beyond my control I had to sell him - this is the man himself. We must meet up after all this C19 stuff and have a chat .View attachment 61290View attachment 61291

?

 

[Gingerwitch]

Well, i never, what a beautiful horse, but surprised as I thought they were mainly black x

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

They come in almost any colour you can think of - but I have always had a soft spot for palominos so that is what he had to be.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I rode one a long, long, time ago in America. He was just a leisure horse (no Big Lick involvement) and was lovely. I would love to have a gaited horse. Also rode a Missouri Fox Trotter and 5 gaited Saddlebred.


OH and I rode some Icelandic horses in Iceland and I love them too! There are tons around here, they're really popular, and I think they're fun. I imagine if one is familiar with the tölt (or any gait) then one could find lameness perhaps? I'm not sure. They do trot and canter though.

 

[Lipglosspukka]

IMO if a horse is moving in such a way because he is in pain, then it is irrelevant if he appears sound or not. These Big Lick horses move in such an exaggerated way because of pain which has been/is being inflicted on them.

To me. That makes them lame.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I think some of you are missing the point - this breed of horse NATURALLY is gaited as are some other breeds. they are not gaited because they are lame or deformed! - in as much as a Hackney is not in pain or deformed but has a typical exaggerated high knee action that is typical of their breed.

The Big Lick 'naturally gaited' TWH is abused to exaggerate that natural gait - and that abuse is some means of inflicting discomfort or even as far as intense pain, that pain will then cause the poor horse to make a VERY exaggerated gait in all beats. so yes I agree, they are in pain, and one must assume from that that the achieved exaggeration is purely an indication of that pain and is therefore an indication of lameness.

 

[ester]

Yes I think it should be a different question for what the OP meant, ergo how do you tell if a big lick horse is lame not a TWH.