Twitching- how long?

[_Libby_]

How long would you consider approppriate to twitch a horse?

I'd always viewed it as a control method for injection, medical attention/ possibly to finish off a clip

I saw a horse twitched tightly for over an hour today and was very concerned by it

 

[Judziah]

the 'effect' of twitching (release of endorphins) should only last a short while...if the horse continued to stay still, then it was doing so because of fear (in the same way one might if you grabbed it's ear or held it's tongue)

 

[meandmyself]

I was always told that ten mins was the max.

Poor horse

 

[Mbronze]

I never knew the maximum time, but to be honest have never heard of somebody holding a twitch on a horse for an hour!!!

 

[merlinsquest]

Would have thought that it would have suffered from lack of oxygen to its lip if done properly (tight) and for that long...... to be honest I dont think I have ever done a twitch up tight enough, it makes me cringe.

 

[_Libby_]

me neither, especially when its purely for cosmetic purposes!

 

[Judziah]

the disgusting part is that it seems there is little to no research on the effect of twitching, that the details about the pressure point releasing natural relaxant is unproven. It seems to have become the popular way of painting over the fact we are, potentially, causing our horses harm and fear, which causes the release of endorphins*. :S After all, I've never known a horse that was keen to have a twitch applied...most, in my experience, are normally restrained (by holding the top lip!!) to have one applied!!

*I would like to point out, before anyone manages to provide any references, that this was said by a very respected equine scientist and Uni lecturer who works closely in the Equine competition industry!!

 

[Gentle_Warrior]

I was always taught 15 mins maximum before they lost the feeling of the nose !!

 

[GTs]

[ QUOTE ]
After all, I've never known a horse that was keen to have a twitch applied...most, in my experience, are normally restrained (by holding the top lip!!) to have one applied!!

[/ QUOTE ]

You analogy does not wory - it is like saying guys obviously don't like washing their testicles as in the shower they have to pull them freeto wash them, and can not get their scrotum up without help. But most guys I know, could happily spend 30 minutes making sure they are nice and clearn.

I like twitches they work - but an hour is too long. I would go for a lip chain with that.

 

[Judziah]

[ QUOTE ]

it is like saying guys obviously don't like washing their testicles as in the shower they have to pull them freeto wash them, and can not get their scrotum up without help. But most guys I know, could happily spend 30 minutes making sure they are nice and clearn.

[/ QUOTE ]

...erm....what??

 

[GTs]

A horse is not going to hold their lip up to be twitched not that it would help much. You need to hold their lip to get the thing on.

Considering by the time most twitches come out, the horse is worked up you can hardly put the two and two together.

 

[Patches]

I've always thought that it is possible to cause permanent nerve damage if you over tighten or twitch for periods in excess of half an hour.

Of course, that could well just be some old wives tale that I took on board hook, line and sinker.

 

[GTs]

It is funny when I worked for Michael Matz he hated twitches - so we would do all the easy horses when he was around, and when he was at the track we would go and do all the ones that needed twitching, always looking out to see if he was around.

 

[Patches]

When Patches is twitched (because she hates needles with a passion), I always use hubby to help with applying the twitch.

He grabs her top lip between the nostrils and holds tight for a couple of seconds. She stands still and then I slip the loop of the twitch twine over his hand and tighten it up.

Voila. Of course they don't like having it applied. I prefer to think it's because they don't like being beaten (as in you've won the battle or outfoxed them, not that you physically beat them of course)

 

[Judziah]

I'm more confused about the testicles now!!

I'm not implying any horse would stand with his lip proud, but from what i've seen of twitches being applied, when the horse sees it, they start objecting. My mare had only had a twitch on once prior to the vet attempting to apply one after she was objecting to having her foot treated. She saw it and immediately started rearing. So we had to physically 'restrain' her in order to put a restraint on her!! For all i know, it could be because of bad handling the first time she'd had one...I've no idea!!

But regardless of whether my experience is 'the norm' or just have seen some over stroppy animals, there still appears to be little to no scientific research on an item that is used frequently on many yards!

If anyone knows of any, please let me know!!

 

[Judziah]

[ QUOTE ]

Voila. Of course they don't like having it applied. I prefer to think it's because they don't like being beaten (as in you've won the battle or outfoxed them, not that you physically beat them of course)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I'm saying though...if it was this wonderful relaxing technique, like massage or acupuncture, surely they'd stand still knowing it was going to be pleasant? All I'm saying is that the twitch has always been marketed as "humane"...but If a small child was being held by it's top lip to make it behave, would you be happy with that?

I'm not saying people should use them...hey, I'm not dumb! i'd sooner do it than be crushed by a horse throwing a tantrum!!

 

[GTs]

I thought you meant more physically -

But by the time the twitch comes out people have already tried, or have set up for something so the horse is alert to begin with.

And you comment about holding a childs lip is silly - we use ears on children.

 

[Patches]

Well I've seen them applied and not work on Patches. You have to do it "just so" otherwise she will fight it.

What I do know is that she most certainly looks sleepy when it's taken effect. Whether it just gives her something else to think about, so she focuses less on the "thing" you are wanting to do to her, I've no idea.

She is far easier to twitch though if you just go straight for the twitch. If you try to do her without and she's already uptight, she will play up far more at the twitch being applied. I am sure she knows it's because we will get the "scary thing" done when it's on and she knows she doesn't want the "scary thing" to happen.

 

[the watcher]

From the deep recesses of my memory, i have always thought that 20 minutes was the recommended maximum.

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]
From the deep recesses of my memory, i have always thought that 20 minutes was the recommended maximum.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the twitch is too tight, then 20 minutes is way too long! I LOATHE twitches - especially the rope ones. The risk of having them TOO tight and actually causing necrotic damage to the nose is HIGH - I've seen a couple of horses that were scarred for life and I don't like to think how much pain they must have suffered!

We DO twitch the odd mare for covering (I hate the thought of my stallion with a broken leg MORE than I hate twitches!) but I use the aluminium shaped ones which are far safer in terms of them not being too tight. But of course any CLEVER horse can get them off!

I won't allow a horse to be twitched for clipping - I'd rather do plenty of desensitising and - if necessary - give a dose of Sedalin. I can't think of a better way of ensuring a horse will ALWAYS be bad to clip than forcing him to ensure it though pain! And yes, let no-one tell you otherwise - they DO cause pain!! That's how they work - pain from the twitch causes a release of endorphins which act as a 'sedative'.

 

[GTs]

If it is pain, why is a lip chain that we know causes pain not nearly as affective?

 

[Judziah]

I've never used a lip chain, so am walking a bit blind here...

I'd assume the twitch works more effectively because it's applied and held in position, so in the same way, you take one blow to the head...the pain is applied and leveled out (so endorphins are release to manage it).

A lip chain works on the method of correction/pressure and release etc...so it's pain varies dependent on strength of horse and handler...so maybe can be more associated with someone repeatedly stabbing your arm (note - I'm not saying it is equivalent!!!) it still hurts each time. Whilst the horse does not argue the lip chain, it's just unpleasant or uncomfortable, if it does fight, it hurts...so the pain varies for the body to react.

Did that make any sense???

 

[GTs]

Pressure is constant on a lip chain - if you shank them with a lip chain, you will have blood everywhere. You can notch a lip chain to an incredibly amount of pressure (enough to make them bleed) and it also pulls on the headpeice of the halter.

 

[silversox]

I had occasionally used a twitch on my old gelding just to finish clipping his ears. On one particular occasion he suddenly started roaring and neighing like a stallion, with his eyes standing on stalks and staring up at the sky. It really scared me; it was as if he was halucinating.

I got the twitch off quick (it had been on for about 10 minutes) and rubbed his muzzle hard but it took him a good hour to recover. It really did scare me and no doubt him as well.

I never did find out from anyone who might know about these things as to what actually caused it. Perhaps H&H could do an article about the pros and cons of twitching on their Veterinary page - it could prove quite helpful.

 

[Judziah]

I'm obviously thinking of the wrong thing then!!

How is the pressure kept constant?