Two steps forward, one step back

[J_sarahd]

Things were going well with Shadow. After the physio and saddle fitter, he was feeling good. Physio noticed some tension over his lumbosacral and released it and we were doing all our homework, which was just daily stretches and heat pad applied to the area.

I have just come back after 3 days away from the yard and gone to tack him up for a very short plod down the lane. Went to tack him up and he basically cornered me in the stable by swinging his bum towards me and lifting a leg. Obviously all plans of hacking were forgotten about and I was on the phone to the vet immediately. He’s literally never done that before.

He has always been a bit grumpy in the stable but vet and everyone put that down to behavioural.

I just feel so deflated, especially as I know that some of the fellow liveries will be telling me I just need to use the flag or give him a smack or some absolute rubbish like that.

I’m thinking it may be his SI? All I want is a happy pony at this point, even if that means he’s retired at 6.

 

[smolmaus]

I just feel so deflated, especially as I know that some of the fellow liveries will be telling me I just need to use the flag or give him a smack or some absolute rubbish like that.

You know your horse ❤

Deflated is understandable, that is such a shame. You'll figure this out too though. Could very well be something acute he has done to himself and will resolve by the time the vet sees him, will keep fingers crossed. Will he let you do stretches and heat pad if a hack is a hard no?

 

[IrishMilo]

I'm so sorry it's not going well again. You've been on such a journey! IIRC he's not insured... is ulcer treatment feasible at the moment? That would probably be my first go-to.

 

[J_sarahd]

You know your horse ❤

Deflated is understandable, that is such a shame. You'll figure this out too though. Could very well be something acute he has done to himself and will resolve by the time the vet sees him, will keep fingers crossed. Will he let you do stretches and heat pad if a hack is a hard no?

I put the heat pad on first and he was quite happy with that on. I daren’t do the stretches if I’m honest

I'm so sorry it's not going well again. You've been on such a journey! IIRC he's not insured... is ulcer treatment feasible at the moment? That would probably be my first go-to.

Yeah, ulcers is one of the other things I’m thinking of looking into

 

[smolmaus]

I put the heat pad on first and he was quite happy with that on. I daren’t do the stretches if I’m honest

Thats something, hopefully it will help if it is something in the lumbar area and he will be happier tomorrow. Poor boy!

 

[J_sarahd]

Thats something, hopefully it will help if it is something in the lumbar area and he will be happier tomorrow. Poor boy!

I hope so! He must really not be happy to react the way he did. I had a bit of a cry as he was being really aggressive to me and I just kept telling him that all I want to do is make him feel better

 

[smolmaus]

I hope so! He must really not be happy to react the way he did. I had a bit of a cry as he was being really aggressive to me and I just kept telling him that all I want to do is make him feel better

Awk I know. If you could just tell them one thing and have them understand!

 

[Cragrat]

One of mine is generally the sweetest, cuddliest, politest horse going - but gets REALLY arsey when he's in pain, particularly with vets, to the point of being dangerous. Some horses just really need to be heard, for whatever reason.

I really hope your vet gives you some answers, and solutions.

 

[Lucky Snowball]

So sorry. Could something have happened while you were away - a slip in the field. I hope the heat pad helps and he’s feeling better soon.

 

[MidChristmasCrisis]

Who has been looking after/handling him whilst you were away? It’s possible his grumpiness has been tackled a little too proactively??

 

[I'm Dun]

Its a long shot, but for anything not quite right I always think its worth doing a pssm 1 test. Its less than 50quid, and PSSM has been found in connies. And I have definitely seen it cause this sort of angry but no one can find a cause behaviour. Like I said, its a long shot, but I'd rule it out.

 

[J_sarahd]

So sorry. Could something have happened while you were away - a slip in the field. I hope the heat pad helps and he’s feeling better soon.

Potentially, but he isn’t one to gallop around the field so it’s less likely.

Who has been looking after/handling him whilst you were away? It’s possible his grumpiness has been tackled a little too proactively??

My yard manager who knows him well as he is out with her horse. She isn’t one to be too overreactive with the grumpiness - I’m more likely to hit a horse than she is! She messaged me earlier saying she noticed he was being a bit weird when she fed him

Its a long shot, but for anything not quite right I always think its worth doing a pssm 1 test. Its less than 50quid, and PSSM has been found in connies. And I have definitely seen it cause this sort of angry but no one can find a cause behaviour. Like I said, its a long shot, but I'd rule it out.

PSSM has crossed my mind before, especially as he does have some PSSM horses in his breeding - he’s had the hair test (but I think that’s PSSM2?) and it came back negative but PSSM1 is definitely still in the back of my mind, especially as it’s that dislike of touch as if all of his skin hurts - I was touching him so softly (but not so soft that it’s tickly) and he reacted with ears back, tail swishing and lifting his leg.

He was meant to be going in on Monday but typically, my car has decided to break this weekend. It’s leaking coolant and whilst I could get away with filling up the coolant, the absolute last thing I want to do is breakdown with Shadow and a trailer (even though our vets is like 10 mins away).

 

[I'm Dun]

Potentially, but he isn’t one to gallop around the field so it’s less likely.

My yard manager who knows him well as he is out with her horse. She isn’t one to be too overreactive with the grumpiness - I’m more likely to hit a horse than she is! She messaged me earlier saying she noticed he was being a bit weird when she fed him

PSSM has crossed my mind before, especially as he does have some PSSM horses in his breeding - he’s had the hair test (but I think that’s PSSM2?) and it came back negative but PSSM1 is definitely still in the back of my mind, especially as it’s that dislike of touch as if all of his skin hurts - I was touching him so softly (but not so soft that it’s tickly) and he reacted with ears back, tail swishing and lifting his leg.

He was meant to be going in on Monday but typically, my car has decided to break this weekend. It’s leaking coolant and whilst I could get away with filling up the coolant, the absolute last thing I want to do is breakdown with Shadow and a trailer (even though our vets is like 10 mins away).

The hair test is type 1, if thats negative then he doesnt have it. Type 2 is much nastier and cant be accurately diagnosed. You can try a biopsy into his bum muscle when hes at his worse. That would give you some answers either way. Have you tried a big dose of decent vitamin e in case its a deficiency? It would show up just like pssm, and absolutely be worse this time of year after a summer of crappy grass.

 

[J_sarahd]

The hair test is type 1, if thats negative then he doesnt have it. Type 2 is much nastier and cant be accurately diagnosed. You can try a biopsy into his bum muscle when hes at his worse. That would give you some answers either way. Have you tried a big dose of decent vitamin e in case its a deficiency? It would show up just like pssm, and absolutely be worse this time of year after a summer of crappy grass.

Ahhhhh okay! I did try that when I suspected PSSM earlier this year (as well as the whole keeping him super warm etc too) but admittedly I did stop when it came back negative and then obviously the PSD was diagnosed and the grumpiness was thought to be a mixture of pain from that and behavioural. It’s obviously worth a shot to try the vit e again

 

[J_sarahd]

I’m even more confused now.

He has been on Feedmark Ultimate Gastro Ease since Friday.

I’ve not been to the yard since Sunday evening (and I kind of just left him alone between Friday and Sunday, just feeding, doing jobs and haying without getting too close to him. On Saturday, he pulled faces and swished his tail when he was eating even though I was a good 6 metres or more away).

YM said that yesterday, she managed to stroke him (cautiously) whilst he was eating his hay and he was quite happy with that. YM’s daughter poo-picked the field last night and said he was a good boy, followed her round the field but didn’t do anything aggressive.

However, a friend and fellow livery kindly got some videos of him last night and he put his ears back at her a few times and turned his bum on him once. But then was quite sweet in between. The only difference between her and YM/YM’s daughter is that perhaps he doesn’t know her quite as well.

This is making me definitely lean more towards gut issues rather than a PSD flare up/SI issue but what do others think? Am I wise to start with the gut?

He is still going to the vets on Friday but with my £700+ car bill, I want to go in with more of an idea of where to start with him, rather than just letting them run down a rabbit hole.

I’m driving myself crazy (shock!) as I have no one at my livery yard who has any real knowledge of this. I have some videos of him last night if anyone thinks they might be useful?

 

[Marigold4]

I’m even more confused now.

He has been on Feedmark Ultimate Gastro Ease since Friday.

I’ve not been to the yard since Sunday evening (and I kind of just left him alone between Friday and Sunday, just feeding, doing jobs and haying without getting too close to him. On Saturday, he pulled faces and swished his tail when he was eating even though I was a good 6 metres or more away).

YM said that yesterday, she managed to stroke him (cautiously) whilst he was eating his hay and he was quite happy with that. YM’s daughter poo-picked the field last night and said he was a good boy, followed her round the field but didn’t do anything aggressive.

However, a friend and fellow livery kindly got some videos of him last night and he put his ears back at her a few times and turned his bum on him once. But then was quite sweet in between. The only difference between her and YM/YM’s daughter is that perhaps he doesn’t know her quite as well.

This is making me definitely lean more towards gut issues rather than a PSD flare up/SI issue but what do others think? Am I wise to start with the gut?

He is still going to the vets on Friday but with my £700+ car bill, I want to go in with more of an idea of where to start with him, rather than just letting them run down a rabbit hole.

I’m driving myself crazy (shock!) as I have no one at my livery yard who has any real knowledge of this. I have some videos of him last night if anyone thinks they might be useful?

I'll probably get shot down for saying this, but it could just be a behavioural/temperament thing or could be a gastric AND behavioural thing. Either way, it isn't OK for him to behave in an aggressive manner to people. It could turn dangerous. He needs to stop. I don't like everything this guy does, but Steve Young has some useful videos on Youtube showing him dealing with aggressive horses. He only rewards only their ears are forward etc. Might be worth a watch?

 

[J_sarahd]

Potentially. He has always been a bit grumpy around food. I worked with him a lot, especially during the early stages of his rehab and got to a point where I could tack him up whilst he had hay and soaked grass nuts without him reacting and I could stand next to him and stroke him whilst he ate his dinner.

He got a bit grumpier when his saddle was too narrow - as I’ve mentioned on another thread - but this level of aggression is, like you said, dangerous. And I do think he is telling me something is not right in the only way he knows how to

 

[smolmaus]

I'll probably get shot down for saying this, but it could just be a behavioural/temperament thing or could be a gastric AND behavioural thing. Either way, it isn't OK for him to behave in an aggressive manner to people. It could turn dangerous. He needs to stop. I don't like everything this guy does, but Steve Young has some useful videos on Youtube showing him dealing with aggressive horses. He only rewards only their ears are forward etc. Might be worth a watch?

Gross. Does he also tell women they would be prettier if they smiled more?

I’m even more confused now.

He has been on Feedmark Ultimate Gastro Ease since Friday.

I’ve not been to the yard since Sunday evening (and I kind of just left him alone between Friday and Sunday, just feeding, doing jobs and haying without getting too close to him. On Saturday, he pulled faces and swished his tail when he was eating even though I was a good 6 metres or more away).

YM said that yesterday, she managed to stroke him (cautiously) whilst he was eating his hay and he was quite happy with that. YM’s daughter poo-picked the field last night and said he was a good boy, followed her round the field but didn’t do anything aggressive.

However, a friend and fellow livery kindly got some videos of him last night and he put his ears back at her a few times and turned his bum on him once. But then was quite sweet in between. The only difference between her and YM/YM’s daughter is that perhaps he doesn’t know her quite as well.

This is making me definitely lean more towards gut issues rather than a PSD flare up/SI issue but what do others think? Am I wise to start with the gut?

He is still going to the vets on Friday but with my £700+ car bill, I want to go in with more of an idea of where to start with him, rather than just letting them run down a rabbit hole.

I’m driving myself crazy (shock!) as I have no one at my livery yard who has any real knowledge of this. I have some videos of him last night if anyone thinks they might be useful?

Going with the gut first is a more... subjective way to look for improvement. Results would be slower and as you have seen, he is going to behave differently around different people so the "is this helping?" metric is blurry. I think you should give the vets all the information if they are open to receiving it, but I also think a vet is probably going to look for a mechanical lameness problem first anyway. With his history that is going to need to be ruled out rather than ruled in.

I would write down the bare bones. He had tension over the back so SI/ PSD is implicated, and sudden behaviour change also coincided with a 3 day break in the stretches and heat pad. Change in behaviour did also coincide with cold weather so PSSM is on your mind too. Resource guarding around food and his stable so you are also thinking potentially gut related. If the vet decides with that info that gut dysfunction is more likely to be a symptom than a cause, I think that would be reasonable but I would still bring it up. They are the experts! You don't need to pinpoint the issue yourself, you just need to give them the important points and they will triage from there ❤

 

[J_sarahd]

Going with the gut first is a more... subjective way to look for improvement. Results would be slower and as you have seen, he is going to behave differently around different people so the "is this helping?" metric is blurry. I think you should give the vets all the information if they are open to receiving it, but I also think a vet is probably going to look for a mechanical lameness problem first anyway. With his history that is going to need to be ruled out rather than ruled in.

I would write down the bare bones. He had tension over the back so SI/ PSD is implicated, and sudden behaviour change also coincided with a 3 day break in the stretches and heat pad. Change in behaviour did also coincide with cold weather so PSSM is on your mind too. Resource guarding around food and his stable so you are also thinking potentially gut related. If the vet decides with that info that gut dysfunction is more likely to be a symptom than a cause, I think that would be reasonable but I would still bring it up. They are the experts! You don't need to pinpoint the issue yourself, you just need to give them the important points and they will triage from there ❤

You’re right - they’re going to want to rule out PSD and potential SI issues.

I have written a list of red flags, green flags and a timeline in my notes on my phone so I don’t forget anything.

 

[smolmaus]

You’re right - they’re going to want to rule out PSD and potential SI issues.

I have written a list of red flags, green flags and a timeline in my notes on my phone so I don’t forget anything.

Exactly what I try and do too. I hope your vets are like mine and appreciate detail but if I don't write it down I will get stressed and forget!

 

[J_sarahd]

Exactly what I try and do too. I hope your vets are like mine and appreciate detail but if I don't write it down I will get stressed and forget!

Same! And I want to give the vets the whole picture - good and bad, because there are some good points that will be relevant and important.

I think I’m just being selfish and really clinging to the idea that it may be his gut because I don’t want to do more box rest and rehab. Obviously I’ll do whatever needs doing

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Steve Young has some useful videos on Youtube showing him dealing with aggressive horses. He only rewards only their ears are forward etc. Might be worth a watch?

I once had a pony who was aggressive. I clicker trained her to be 'ears forward'. And was delighted that it worked like charm. Until I realised that it meant I could not longer 'read' her very well, as her expressions were no longer linked to her emotional state. Her aggression turned out to be pain related and the ears-forward led to me missing signals from her. I had never considered that as a disadvantage of clicker before, but it has made me very wary now of training horses to look 'happy' even if they don't feel it.

 

[I'm Dun]

hind gut?

And I've not watched Steve Young for ages but he can read a horse and has good timing. I've never seen anything about ears forward. Hes someone well worth watching. I suspect the ears forward thing has lost something in translation.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Joe Midgley pays attention to expression as well as what the horse is actually doing, and releases when the horse's expression looks more relaxed and happy, not just a correctly performed movement. Perhaps it's along those lines as opposed to rewarding a specific movement that can be shaped, and therefore may not be linked to the horses thoughts or feelings?

 

[J_sarahd]

This is partly why I’m not just assuming it’s behavioural. I do think that the slight “go away” when he is eating can be behavioural but I don’t want to train him out of being grumpy if it’s the only way he’s going to tell me he’s unhappy about something.

Apart from being slightly sharp at the beginning of our ridden rehab earlier this year, this pony does not put a toe out of line when ridden. The only way I noticed he wasn’t feeling good before was the feeling of riding through treacle - which is so difficult to read as I’m so used to having horses who will very clearly tell me something’s wrong when ridden. So I think the grumpiness/aggression, whatever you want to call it, is the only way he knows how to communicate with me.

I am leaning towards it being his gut now that I’ve written everything out on my notes app. But equally, I wouldn’t be surprised if it is SI. I’m leaning less towards PSD as he isn’t showing the same lethargy but it is still on my mind

 

[McGrools]

hind gut?

And I've not watched Steve Young for ages but he can read a horse and has good timing. I've never seen anything about ears forward. Hes someone well worth watching. I suspect the ears forward thing has lost something in translation.

Agree, I rate him highly, saw a live demo recently and was very impressed x

 

[Marigold4]

hind gut?

And I've not watched Steve Young for ages but he can read a horse and has good timing. I've never seen anything about ears forward. Hes someone well worth watching. I suspect the ears forward thing has lost something in translation.

I gave too brief an explanation so, yes, definitely something lost in translation. He's good at training in positive habits and respect.

 

[J_sarahd]

He was at the vet’s today. Thankfully he is sound (anyone else absolutely dread vets trotting up their horse in case they’re very noticeably lame and you feel like a bad owner for not noticing?!).

But other than that, she didn’t really know where to start. She palpated him and he was reactive over his back, lumbosacral area and all underneath. But I do think some of that reactivity was caused by him being a bit annoyed at being prodded so much.

So we are doing a short bute trial. I just hope we get some answers either way on which way to go. I’m still not convinced it’s musculoskeletal and I know bute doesn’t always help all physical pain (and that it makes behaviour worse if it’s ulcers) but I guess it’s a better way of finding out the cause than finger in the air/going down a big rabbit hole of checking out EVERY single possible cause.

 

[smolmaus]

Sound is good! Bute is a start, and the investigation has started so you just need to follow the process now. Fingers crossed he gives you some answers

And yes, I do get that fear and my horse HAS done that to me! Luckily my vet knows I'm an anxious headcase and believed me when I said she wasn't bloody doing that yesterday!

 

[I'm Dun]

Have you had someone like Tom Beech out? I find they are absolutely amazing at finding weird, hes not right but no one knows why stuff.