tying up / selenium deficiency ??

[katrid16]

I was wondering if anyone had any experience or advice to give on mild tying up ?
The history of my horse is he was being lazy during schooling which was unusual - I had his back checked and she said he had tight muscles behind his saddle area which suggested a mild tying up , I then had his bloods tested and he was slightly selenium defficient so he was put on a supplement , and seemed ok , he has since had 18 months off work due to a tendon injury and is now coming back into work , he is not on a supplement but I have changed his feeding regime so he should be getting enough - he is still only walking but yesterday after about 3/4 of a hour he became very reluctant to go forward and was sweating heavily , he is very unfit but i thought this reaction was not normal so i susspect he was experiencing musle spasm agian what do you think ?/

 

[flintfootfilly]

I'd go very carefully, because that sounds as though he may well have been tying up again yesterday.

Have you had the vet to take bloods today to check his muscle enzyme levels so that you can be pretty sure of whether that's what happened? If not, might be worth checking whether they could do them tomorrow whilst one of the enzymes (AST) may still be elevated, although it won't catch the peak of any of the muscle enzymes.

(Edited to add: one of the muscle enzymes, CK, peaks about 4-6 hours after a tying-up episode. Whereas, the other main muscle enzyme, AST, peaks about 18 hours after the tying-up episode. So if you ever want confirmation it was tying-up, and how much muscle damage was involved, then those timings give an idea of when the enzymes will show the most changes in a blood sample)

On the first occasion, what were the muscle enzyme levels in the blood (AST, CK, LDH)? It would usually be those that confirmed tying-up.

Must admit, even the more comprehensive blood profile that I've had done on one of my ponies doesn't include selenium. I don't know enough about selenium to know whether a low level in blood is directly linkable to a deficiency or not, but I do know selenium can be toxic in excess so I'd go carefully with any supplement, and if you can have a forage analysis done to work out levels of various things including selenium, then so much the better.

There are all kinds of useful articles on the internet re tying-up, and varying causes. I only know, because one of my gang has been having investigations for chronic reluctance to go forward, which turns out to be a type of tying-up / muscle disease.

I've found this one useful:

http://www.ker.com/library/proceedings/10/The Management of Tying-Up in Sport Horses.pdf

and there's all kinds of other stuff by Stephanie Valberg at Minnesota, or Beth Valentine at Oregon relating to tying-up and EPSM/PSSM.

If your horse has tied-up more than once, then it's worth trying to find out the cause so that you can reduce the chance of it happening again (and hopefully reduce the chance of it happening with more severe damage to your horse).

Sarah

 

[Harveydales]

I agree with all of the above. This is very similar to how my horse presented with tying up last year when being brought back into work. It is definately worth geting a blood sample today for muscle enzyme analysis.

 

[harrietSJ]

I'd definitely get your vet to run a muscle enzyme profile on him (if not full bloods first to check everything is OK) for Selenium you need a separate test I seem to recall then you can determine how to go ahead.

What breed is your horse? I know that with PSSM/EPSM one of the major times you need to watch out for is when coming back into work after a period of time off as this is commonly when flare ups occur.

Check out the University of Minnesota website that is really comprehensive - Stephanie Valberg is the lady over there....

Hope it goes OK.

 

[katrid16]

I'd go very carefully, because that sounds as though he may well have been tying up again yesterday.

Have you had the vet to take bloods today to check his muscle enzyme levels so that you can be pretty sure of whether that's what happened? If not, might be worth checking whether they could do them tomorrow whilst one of the enzymes (AST) may still be elevated, although it won't catch the peak of any of the muscle enzymes.

(Edited to add: one of the muscle enzymes, CK, peaks about 4-6 hours after a tying-up episode. Whereas, the other main muscle enzyme, AST, peaks about 18 hours after the tying-up episode. So if you ever want confirmation it was tying-up, and how much muscle damage was involved, then those timings give an idea of when the enzymes will show the most changes in a blood sample)

On the first occasion, what were the muscle enzyme levels in the blood (AST, CK, LDH)? It would usually be those that confirmed tying-up.

Must admit, even the more comprehensive blood profile that I've had done on one of my ponies doesn't include selenium. I don't know enough about selenium to know whether a low level in blood is directly linkable to a deficiency or not, but I do know selenium can be toxic in excess so I'd go carefully with any supplement, and if you can have a forage analysis done to work out levels of various things including selenium, then so much the better.

There are all kinds of useful articles on the internet re tying-up, and varying causes. I only know, because one of my gang has been having investigations for chronic reluctance to go forward, which turns out to be a type of tying-up / muscle disease.

I've found this one useful:

http://www.ker.com/library/proceedings/10/The Management of Tying-Up in Sport Horses.pdf

and there's all kinds of other stuff by Stephanie Valberg at Minnesota, or Beth Valentine at Oregon relating to tying-up and EPSM/PSSM.

If your horse has tied-up more than once, then it's worth trying to find out the cause so that you can reduce the chance of it happening again (and hopefully reduce the chance of it happening with more severe damage to your horse).

Sarah

Thanks great info , no not had bloods done yet planning to and last time it was not done during the tying up just to check selenium levels don't know enough about it . will speak to my vet

 

[Kelly@ESUP]

There are two fantastic products on the market which sound like they could benefit you - Tye-Gard from Equine America, and Vitamin E & Selenium by NAF - might be worth giving them a go?

 

[katrid16]

Yes he was on Tye Gauard before I had just hoped that if i got the feeding right i wouldn't have to give a supplement ! we know this area is difficient of selinium as all the farmers say so but he is getting good quality hay/haylage from a different area and a feed balancer so hoped that would do the trick , I just have not had too much experience with tying up and was suprised when he was seemingly doing so after just walking and wondered if anyone else had the same experience thanks for all your replies and the articles are well worht reading

 

[flintfootfilly]

Here are a few other links to articles I've found very helpful in relation to tying-up and its causes and prevention:

Beth Valentine's factsheets on Rural Heritage website. Scroll down for EPSM articles: http://www.ruralheritage.com/vet_clinic/index.htm

More time-consuming to look through, but these are individual threads where people have asked questions of Beth Valentine. Most of the ones about EPSM say EPSM in the title. It's not the easiest site to search through, but there's some good stuff in there.

http://www.ruralheritage.com/messageboard/virtualvet/index1.htm

This is a good factsheet by Stephanie Halberg at university of Minnesota (who is the other expert on EPSM, otherwise known as PSSM). She's done more work with quarterhorses, whilst Beth Valentine is more known for her work with draft horses:

http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/PSSM/home.html

A good summary of all the different types of tying-up (Stephanie Halberg again):

http://www.ker.com/library/proceedings/10/The Management of Tying-Up in Sport Horses.pdf

Interesting, brief, overview of genetic mutation causing one type of EPSM:

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12725

Another really good article (Kentucky equine research staff):

http://www.equinews.com/article/update-pssm-horses

Then there's the yahoo EPSM group, but it's a bit cumbersome to navigate:

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSM/?tab=s

Feeding fat to manage muscle disorders:

http://www.re-leve.com/documents/Feedingfattomanagemuscledisorders.pdf

My boy Max has never fully tied-up, in as much as I have always been able to MAKE him move when he's ground to a halt (didn't know whether it was extreme laziness, attitude or whatever). But now I know that his muscle enzymes are about 10 times higher than they should be, even at rest, we know for sure he has a muscle disease and I know I have to go very carefully with his exercise to avoid a full tying-up episode.

I'm starting to follow the guidelines for EPSM/PSSM horses to see how much exercise he is able to tolerate using that. The Minnesota website has good guidelines on how to reintroduce work, and both that site and Beth Valentine's stuff on Rural Heritage give suggestions on diet.

My guess is you may find all of that useful for you and your horse.

The hair sample DNA test for EPSM is very cheap and easy to do. £25 through Animal Genetics in Cornwall. That can confirm one type of mutation which can cause tying-up. If that doesn't come up with anything, then a biopsy is possible but more expensive/invasive. I opted for the biopsy after the hair test came back negative for type 1 EPSM. Unfortunately the biopsy did not show anything to confirm what type of muscle problem my boy has, but his series of blood tests with elevated muscle enzymes confirm that there is something major going on in terms of muscle damage. The bottom line is that our only real treatment option is to treat as though it's EPSM, whether it is or not.

Sarah

 

[monikirk]

I've used the Naff supplement as a preventative in spring and autumn against myopathy. Two horses have died on our pasture. Initial symptoms are similar to tying up. Must say we are moving to pastures new!

 

[katrid16]

thank you looks like i have a lot of reading to do !!!

 

[dilbert]

My boy probably has EPSM , he is on a low starch/sugar, high fibre diet. Limited grass, forage analysed and mineral supplemented accordingly ( forage plus did this), I feed him along dr kellons recommendations so he gets Alcar supplement.

 

[flintfootfilly]

Katrid16,

just googling stuff on selenium and horses, and this thread of yours came up.

I'm now looking at a possible (likely) selenium deficiency in all 6 of my ponies, whereas originally I thought I was looking at muscle problems in just one of them.

So I'd be really interested to her what levels of selenium your horse was found to have when you had her tested, and whether it was whole blood, or plasma, that they tested?

I've had bloods taken from two of my gang at the end of last week, and am awaiting vitamin E and selenium results. Will probably be another week or so before results are through, and I'm getting impatient already!

However, one thing I thought I'd mention to you is that the more closely I've looked at my hay analysis, the more I realise it's actually only providing about a third of the recommended levels of selenium each day.

When I looked on an old UKNHCP thread, about a dozen people from around the UK have copied their forage analyses onto there. And out of those analyses, there were only 2 or 3 samples of hay/haylage/grass from the 12-13 analyses that would have provided enough selenium without further supplementation.

So certainly in my own case, I think it's going to be a matter of supplementing adequately for ever. but obviously being careful not to oversupplement because selenium can be toxic/fatal at too high a level.

The balancer I found which seems to most closely meet my needs is by Forageplus.

Will update on some of my threads when I find out more, but that's where I am at the moment with it all.

Wondering how you are progressing now?

Sarah

 

[paulineh]

I would also look into the Magnesium levels too. Magnesium is needed for muscle function.

I have an Arab Mare that can suffer with ? Tying up/muscle tightness etc

I watch what she is fed , because of other things she is on Nupafeed Magnesium Calmer (Not for the Calming effect but I believe that the Magnesium is the right one for her) make sure she is warmed up well, often I will put an exercise sheet on her especially in this weather, I would prefer her too warm than cold.. At any time she sweats I give her electrolytes.

If you find that the selenium is low then do look at the NAF product.

The only other thing I do is I have a massage pad that I use before riding out sometimes. I will also give her a manual massage too. Gentle stretching will also helpto get those muscles working.