Ulcers not responding to reduction in gastroguard!!!!! H.e.l.p!!

[Loudabell]

I'm after any advice or different avenues to try as I am now getting desperate.

bought my lad in may. he was a nice, chilled out pony. 6yo id x, previously been in Ireland and had hunted. His behaviour changed in November and he started having low grade colic at night so we scoped for ulcers and found his upper stomach was covered in grade 3 ulcers. 6 weeks on full dose gastroguard, scoped again, better but not great so remained on full dose. after nearly 3 months we scope again and they look better so we go down to half dose for nearly 6 weeks. scoped today and ulcers are as bad as they were when we started!!!!!!! horse is showing tell tale sighs of pain again - bad tempered, won't stand to be mounted, tacked up, sharp to ride. so advised to go back up to full dose for 2 months before trying to wean him off again. insurance is already at £4200 and we have a limit of £5000 hence the mad panic!!!!!!

Horse is turned out all day in a small herd and seems happy. not stressed. we moved yards over 2 months ago as he wouldn't settle at his old yard and he seems totally chilled in his new home. we scoped him after he had moved and his ulcers were great so cant see why it would be stress???? loads of grass. when he's in he's fed ad lib hay. never left without.

fed breakfast and tea with gastric supplements in. one from Feedmark and the other a vetinary one. fed hi-fi lite and pony nuts. that's it. always given a handful of chop before we ride. Gastrogaurd given religiously 30 mins before his tea.

we don't compete or go to shows so that cant be stressing him. the vet says i'm doing everything right and has no idea why the ulcers have faired up.

I'm at a total loss of for what else to try. he is regularly seen by the physio whom cant see any other issues with him and is ridden every other day so is in regular, light work.

THIS FORUM HAS BEEN FANTASTIC IN THE PAST. ANY IDEAS OR SUGGESTIONS ARE WELCOME. WHAT IS CAUSING MY HORSES ULCERS TO COME BACK?????ANY IDEAS WHAT THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM IS??????

p.s he is a dead fussy eater and would not live out 24/7. he's jumped fences and gates before to try and get in when he's been left out and didn't want to be. he is a nightmare but I love him!

 

[PorkChop]

Probably not what you want to hear, however any horses that I have known that have persistent recurring ulcers have been found to be in pain somewhere.

I realise you have reached the limit for the ulcer treatment on insurance, so I would either try a cheaper ulcer treatment or maybe have a lameness work up/nerve blocks/x-rays done.

 

[mega spoilt ponies]

As above. In my experience if they dont go its because you have not yet found the source of pain.

They are often found alongside things like navicular/kissing spine/psd/arthritis etc.

Unfortunately i think you need a full work-up.

And hifi/pony nuts would not be my choice for an ulcer prone horse (molasses/cheap fillers)

 

[vanrim]

Ranitidine is sometimes used to treat stubborn ulcers instead of GastroGard. Ranitidine is MUCH cheaper - about £12 / week. It is nor licensed for horses but many vets use it. In studies it has not been found to be as effective as GastroGard but as I said there have been plenty of people on forums whose horses have responded to Ranitidine better than GG. Might be worth discussing with your vet.

 

[vanrim]

I meant to add that also some people's horses need antibiotics to get rid of persistent ulcers. Another thing to consider is mycotoxin poisoning where mycotoxins can form in clover in the grazing. I have come across people on forums who swear by feeding a mycotoxin binder such as mysosorb (a relatively cheap supplement available on the internet).

 

[Goldenstar]

You need to look for another source of pain .
I would go straight to a full work up don't waste any more time if the ulcers are secondary to something else you need to find out what it is .
I have been through this if I was there again I would the horse in wagon drop it at the vets and tell them to find out what wrong .
I lost that horse but it was nine months of hell and thousands of pounds of gastro guard later .

 

[Mince Pie]

There is a new drug now which is about half the price of gastroguard, but I can't for the life of me remember the name of it! Perhaps someone else does? It's been around for a couple of years now.

 

[Goldenstar]

There is a new drug now which is about half the price of gastroguard, but I can't for the life of me remember the name of it! Perhaps someone else does? It's been around for a couple of years now.

Peptizole

 

[charterline]

I'd be booking a vet workup, see what you can find

 

[Melody Grey]

Another vote for a full vet work up. Do his symptoms disappear whilst on the full dose of GG? I.e. Could the symptoms actually be something else?

 

[greygirlie]

My mare had a history of ulcer symptoms which did not respond to gastroguard, and was getting steadily worse. Her gastrc ulcers cleared with GG, but sympoms persisted and got worse. In desperation I put her on Ritetrac and succeed, fed with a handful of agrobs plus soaked hay and as much turnout as possible. She turned the corner in a few days and now shows no symptoms at all. Conclusion is that she had severe hind gut ulceration, which GG will not resolve.
Hope you find a solution.

 

[Loudabell]

I said this to my vet but both him and my physio can not see or think of any where he could be in pain but I totally agree with you. I just wish I could find the root cause. thank you x

 

[Loudabell]

Been thinking about his feed last night. what would you suggest feeding?????? the reason I feed the Hi Fi Lite is he actually eats eat. he's turned his nose up at most other feeds so at least with the Hi Fi Lite I can get his supplements in him but there's no point in that if the feed is crap. been looking at Thunder Brook's feeds but at a bit of a loss for what to try xxxxxx

 

[greygirlie]

My girl had a very low grade spavin which may, or may not, have been the cause of her gut problems, and was treated, but her gut issues worsened. My suspicion is that she'd had hind gut issues for a long time but was relatively asymptomatic until things got very bad. The chiropractor I use is convinced that the gut should be treated in conjunction with any body work, especially where there is any hint of hind limb/SI problems.
We have never found the root cause, all I know is that I had a horse who wating was very sick without an obvious cause, and that treating her gut solved the issues. Drug therapy didn't work for her, and it probably delayed getting her right for twelve months. This is not a criticism of veterinary practice, I had every faith that they were doing everything they could. We had got to the point where they thought she had internal melanomas with a very bleak prospect. We were days away from going for abdominal scans, which may not have shown anything and been very expensive as we had exhausted the insurance, when I made a last ditch attempt with her diet.
I have found that I have to be very careful with protein levels in her diet, any hint of alfa, beet or linseed has an effect. So the recommended diets for ulcer horses were causing more harm. And she has regular chiro and equine touch, both of which she responds to very well.
It is a minefield, sometimes you just can't do right for doing wrong.

 

[Loudabell]

well I've just learnt that when you reply to a post your response just gets dumped at the bottom. thank you so much for all your responses. you are all brilliant. I'm going to phone my vet in a bit and discuss a full work up. I totally agree that there is something else that is causing this pain. I'm looking into his and after researching until 1am he's coming off the pony nuts, going on some oil, a herbal calmer to just keep on top of any stress if there is any and then I need to find an alternative to the Hi Fi Lite. any feed suggestions welcome. I'll see if antibiotics could help and am going to ask about Ranitidine, in particular for the looming date where I have spent all the insurance money!

Thank you so much and keep the ideas coming xxxx

 

[Goldenstar]

I said this to my vet but both him and my physio can not see or think of any where he could be in pain but I totally agree with you. I just wish I could find the root cause. thank you x

Been there heard that nine months later the horse was so predictably unpredictable life was a nightmare and then after one of her turn narrowly missed ended up in a deep culvert full of water I called it a day I was going to get hurt I just knew it .
Ask the vets on this correct diet living this lifestyle why are the ulcers getting worse ?
Some thing is driving it .
It may come down to money in the end exhausted and scared for my safety the bill topping 10k I just had to stop .

 

[Mince Pie]

IF you're looking for feed for a fussy horse contact feed companies and ask for samples. That way you can see if he'll eat it without having to buy a bag of feed

 

[ester]

^^ On from the above I would see if you can get some sample from agrobs/red rufus.

I think I would work up the rest of him with the vet and see if we could find anything and then start making some longer term decisions. I know you said he wouldn't turn out 24/7 but is it possible if he went to a retirement livery type place where everyone is always out with nice unjumpable hedges he might?

 

[nikkimariet]

I've just been through this with Fig... I call it hell And I don't have insurance!!!

The cheaper form of GastroGard is Peptizole.

Fig has done 8 weeks on this. I've also tried Ranitidine and supplementing with Psyllium.

He has had the best reaction to Sulcrafate. Ask your vet about that. He did 2 weeks on a full dose (9 sachets) and is now on 3 sachets a day.

I will dose with Omeprazole on any 'event' days so lessons, clinics, comps etc and when he changes fields too.

Have you tried a Pectin based supp for hind gut ulcers? Or just using something with anti acids in? Might he actually have glandular ulcers or even acidosis?

Fig also super fussy and looks bloody marvellous on slobbermash plus linseed.

Feel free to PM me as I lose track of threads on here!

 

[dixie]

All great advice so far.
I would switch the Hi Fi Lite to Hi Fi Molasses Free and take away the nuts. Not used Slobbermash but have heard great things.
And again a lot of the feed company's will give you free samples.

 

[Loudabell]

Thank you so much everyone. the more I look into Hind Gut issues the more I think that there could be an issue back there but my vet was so unwilling to consider anything else that I can see my self having to find another vet. I think mine would happily just get all my insurance money out of me and then wash there hands of me!

His stomach is now in such a state and after 6 months of GG I don't dare take him off it BUT I need to try treating his hindgut as well.

How have you all treated any hindgut issues?
is Sucralfate (not sure if that's right) the gold standard as its a prescribed med or is a supplement like Suceed or Rite trac going to help???

Is Ranitidine used to treat hindgut issues or stomach issues?

And finally does any one know of a vets practice that serves Cheshire where the vets will do the Suceed Fecal Blood Test. I'm aware of it's limitations but it may give me an indicator that something is deffo wrong back there.

Thank you in advance xxxxxx

 

[greygirlie]

I would contact Saracen and ask for samples of ritestrac and equishure. Neither will do any harm, and if there are hind gut issues you should see a change in a few days. My vet had recommended Succeed without the faecal test, but had not heard of the supplements, nor had the specialist vet at the local hospital. Both vets amazed at the change. When we tried ritetrac I cut out all other supplements and medications bar succeed, and gave it in a handful agrobs mash. Saw a significant change in 3 days, horse is still improving after 4 months on this regime. Have reduced ritetrac, stopped succeed, but cotinued with vit e, mycosorb, bio-mos and yea-sacc for gut support. Droppings better shape, smell and texture, no excess mucus/moisture, no girthiness, horse bright, bouncy and alert.

 

[nikkimariet]

You can do the succeed poo test yourself, just order a few. I did 2, both negative. But he is 150m% better on sulcrafate than anything else.

 

[NiceNeverNaughty]

sorry to read about the troubles you having, mine has just gone onto peptizole. Just another thought, does your horse have hay out in the field as well? My vet mentioned to me that she’s seen horses with ulcers whose owners cant understand it as they are out all time on grass but they need hay as well as another source of fibre. Have you tried dengie healthy tummy?

 

[YasandCrystal]

Probably not what you want to hear, however any horses that I have known that have persistent recurring ulcers have been found to be in pain somewhere.

I realise you have reached the limit for the ulcer treatment on insurance, so I would either try a cheaper ulcer treatment or maybe have a lameness work up/nerve blocks/x-rays done.

I agree with this. I would be looking for pain elsewhere. My WB had symptomatic ulcers, he had chronic sacr illiac dysfunction. Have you got a holistic bet you could use to get to the root of the problem.

 

[Loudabell]

Morning one and all. more advice needed as this situation has now escalated and gone in a different direction.

we are back on full dose GG. now feed a totally organic diet, have installed a hay bar and mirror, carried out the Succeed test and now feed succeed. Ulcer situation seems to be under control and he seems to have stopped the colic etc but I he is on full dose GG which we know works. the test comes when he has to come off the stuff. which will be next week. half dose for a month and then down to a quarter, praying the symptoms don't return and this horse doesn't become the devil again. I have thrown everything that I can at the ulcers and was really positive that I can find a way to fix my boy.

Rocko has now become lame. he came in lame from the field after doing his usual and messing around with the other horses. he has been lame for 3 weeks. no heat or swelling and the vet has carried out nerve blocks and isolated the issue to his foot. 5/10 lame in trot. the vet has said that he is really concerned about the degree of lameness that Rocko is displaying and has mentioned Digital Flexor injury or Navicular Syndrome and so Rocko is off to the practice for a full work up. since the vet has been out he has then gone lame in his other foot! he should ideally be box rested at the moment but due to his ulcers that is not an option so he is being turned out for 4 hours at a time in a small paddock on his own. I was a bit shocked out how concerned the vet was and when the issue was located in his foot felt sick! (read my older posts on my old mare. I had 2 years of devastation from constant poulticing, operations etc for pedal osteosis).

here is my problem:

Rocko is going to have to start weaning off the GG next week.
the ulcers have always been my primary concern as they are so bad BUT this lameness issue has the potential to be something really serious
prolonged box rest will not be an option due to the ulcers
Rocko is only 7 and generally full of beans. he acts like a big, daft baby
He does not remain quiet I the field with other horses. he is a nightmare, playing with the others, galloing around, rearing up, even with the quietest horses
horse will not live out, he stresses and wants to come in when he's had enough. he's jumped gates in the past when he's decided it's time to come in.
with my previous horse I bankrupt myself and tried everything for 2 years to fix her. when I had no choice but to PTS I was exshausted, physically, mentally and financially.

I need to really think through the treatment plans that are going to be offered after diagnosis because the ulcer situation complicates everything. I need some advice as to what may be the best thing for my horse.

if I can treat what ever it is with a small paddock and limited turn out rather than box rest I will do it of course.

what would you do if box rest was the only chance of my horse being sound in the future?????
what would you do if your horse would only be pasture sound after treatment. consider though that my lad is not quiet in the field and I don't think he will ever be.

I need advice because I'm the kind of person that will try everything, even when others would give up I keep trying and I did with my old mare BUT I also now know that sometimes you need to make a decision before the rollercoaster starts and you get in so deep that you can't stop. on the other hand though, I don't know if I'm still a bit damaged from my previous experiences and therefore my judgement is compromised.

please let me know what you think.

 

[D66]

If the feet are fixed the ulcers could just go away.
Good luck with him.

 

[Loudabell]

i hope so. that's what I'm praying for TBH!

 

[swellhillcottage]

You can do the succeed poo test yourself, just order a few. I did 2, both negative. But he is 150m% better on sulcrafate than anything else.

Hi where can you order the succeed test from?

 

[ester]

Is he shod?
If he is, and obviously with the info from the work up I would really consider taking his shoes off, turning him away on some rough grazing and seeing if he can fix himself.