Um, any behaviorist type folk here? Yes, Cayla, this means you...

[PucciNPoni]

Need some help with a west highland white terrorist (sorry to westie fans, but this one IS a terrorist). I groom a lady's westie that has been mistreated at some point before her time with him. She does not help matters much, but after a rather stern chat the last time he was in to be groomed she is willing to try!

Background: 13 yo, very over weight, some skin complaints (usual lumps and bumps on an older westie but also a very scary looking raised and very darkened gland on his tail. He's got some aggro issues - won't let anyone near him or the lady. However, when she leaves he's mostly ok. He will not let me lift him at all (but is good as gold once in the bath or on the table - so with the use of a mounting block, he does go to either happily enough so I'm happy to improvise). When I even so much as try to lift him from any place (floor or bath or whatever) he spins, freaks out, simultaneously empties both tanks and last time he even managed to give himself a bloody nose thru the stress!

Step one - get the dog to the vet - get the tail seen to at very least. (that's happening this week)

Step two - get some weight off the dog (spoke to her about his diet and she's agreed to cut out the extra treats for now but personally I would rather see a whole diet revamp -but if she can manage to get some weight off by losing the treats I'd be happy enough).

Step three - get the dog to a behaviorist to teach the lady how to treat the dog... (she promised she'd call the one I'd recommended)

Step three - bring the dog in more than twice a year for grooming (my own theory is that the dogs are generally less stressed about grooming if it's done more often - and to start she's going to bring him in for monthly bath and brush outs and he's here today for that first one after his trim last month).

This morning I made the mistake of crouching down to get a better look at him ---never extended my hand or anything and he growled. I stayed put but ignored him and he eventually turned to his mum and she let him up on her knee. I refrained from commenting because I'd made the mistake of getting down to his level to start with (it's such a habit as I always go over dog's coats before checking in).

So I'm wondering if anyone has any tips for helping reduce his anxiety, correcting the aggression (or should I just ignore it and hope the wee bugger doesn't bite me?!). I have in the past found that building the trust over time has helped, but can't help but wonder if in the past I've just been lucky?!

Any other thoughts on any of the other issues raised?

Cheers!

 

[s4sugar]

How long has the dog been with this owner and why do you say he has been mistreated in the past?

I groomed a shih tzu with near identical behaviour yesterday - one I have known from a puppy and groomed his predecessors in the family for the past 25 years.
All medical checks ok but he objects to anyone who does anything that he doesn't approve of.

I noose him on the floor and hold the head end forward while I get the rear with my other hand to lift him and have to use the LIPS on the table to be able to touch his feet.

Never mistreated but started out as a grumpy old man.(& from a puppy farm so no selection for good temperament?) The owner's mother is the one he likes best - she lets him do exactly as he wishes.

To add to your plan:-
Can you work with the owner so she turns up once a week and the dog gets his dinner on your table?
(Two benefits -dog gets a positive on the table and you see the quantity he's fed.)
Monthly bathing is good, weekly pop in's may be better. Are you cage drying or hand drying?

Until someone waltzed off with them I had some Ian Dunbar videos that were excellent in these situations.

With grumpy westies the softly softy approach just enables them so you need to be stern - schoolmarm style - and don't stand for any nonsense. At the same time don't get into a fight with them as they have stubborn to spare and they can hold grudges. Does he let the owner lift him? Can you put a hammock on him and lift with the hammock slings?

I suppose I should ask - can the owner pick him up or pick him up to put him off her knee?

It may be he has abdominal pain



Do let us know what the vet finds.

 

[CAYLA]

I actually use the firm tactics with dogs like this, he seems set in his ways and probably very spoilt at homes which makes matters worse cos the owners take no notice of what you ask of them and basically you are back to square 1and it's you left to deal with the dog again.

I have a westi of 3 years that is worse than this, he is a maniac, he has been banned from all grooming parlours and his mother is far to soft and hates the thought of him being made to do something he does not want to do, the first time I did him she left me a note to say

"He does not like the drier, so send him home wet if need be" "
"He is not to keen on having his head cut, so leave that is need be"
"If he gets to stressed, just leave him"

WTF, why bring him at all
He also squirts his glands, and no doubt it's a stress thing, but he also likes to push his luck, I simply plough on through and he tires before me, I also place a slip lead on him and extend his head away from me, he tries like hell to reach me and he literally tires himself, I don't actually have restraints, A lead a tie (on the wall) is all I use, my dogs are now resigned to the fact that I wont give in and grooming goes ahead at all costs, if you cannot manage get someone to hold his head forward and you place a hand under his stomach to keep him still (im sure you do all this anyhow) and carry on, I have a yorki thats a b"stard, it tries to have you hand off when grooming its head, I jsut hold it's head via it's collar in a way it cannot move it head at all and cut away whislt it growls and bares its teeth, in the past the groomers just gave in and he got what he wanted (to be left alone) he will now stand fine, he still growls and bares teeth but I dont hold his collar anymore, he now knows I jsut simply wont stop no matter what he does, if I do need to hold, I can actually do wonders with one hand firmly holding and the other cutting like Edward Scissorhands (I have to deal with cats at work with one hands holding and the other removing the catheter) thats helps me no doubt, I think you have to become a contortionist
The end cut may not be as fab as a good dog, but it gets done and the more you can do it the better.

I have held onto to dogs to the point they have no fight left and they are exhausted to the point I can groom with out any reaction, I think with some dogs you are never going to make it a positive experience but they is no two ways about it to come to respect you and will give in and go without a fight.

As suggested def makes things easier for u, ask her to bring him in frequently, the more you handle him the better esp in a firmer manor, I just literally place a slip lead on and scoop them off the floor as quick as, sometimes they dont even see me coming could you ask her to muzzle him for you to pick him up or indeed use your mounting blocks/I dont have any, so it's lift up or nowt you can hold them in any direction pretty firmly to turn their heads away with a slip lead, msot importantly dont back down to him.

 

[CAYLA]

Again with the drying, I dont have a cage dryer and they maynot get the brush through and lovely finish you get with a dog that does not mind it, but I will still tie them and dry, then will walk from side to side to avoid it (this simply jsut tires them more) but I still carry on for as long as it takes, they usually give up and lie down.
It maybe also would have done good to ask the owner to walk him a good distance and get some energy off him, but if she is old that may not be an option.

Just to add I think sometimes giving to much times make matters worse they get to anxious and they know they can string it out, you have to just be firm and plough on as quick as you can.
He probably gets no discipline at home or even brushed, so to him, you are the devil

 

[PucciNPoni]

Thanks peeps! Not sure why the lady thinks the dog was mistreated. She's not had him that long - but he does act like it.

What you were saying about the shihtzu reminds me of a shih I used to groom - exactly the same. He had been groomed by another woman til she retired, but apparently for no reason he just started turning nasty. I groomed him for a few years and the owner always had to stay with the wee monster and we ended up resorting putting a lampshade on so he couldn't get round to bite me. I never could do his face - the best I could hope for was to strip him down with a 3mm and send him away unwashed. Miserable dog...and I don't say that often.

I'm not sure whether or not the owner can actually lift the dog - he's fat and she's elderly - and doesn't look too agile herself. So I would doubt that she would manage to lift. I struggle to lift him too - but considering all his other issues (skin etc) I wouldn't be surprised if he had abdominal pain. She admits it's been ages since he's been to the vet because he is so vicious at the vets.

What I like about this lady is that she is willing to do what I ask of her - so if it means bringing him in lots, getting him to a behaviorist, getting him to a vet and so on, she seems to be doing them....albeit after months/years of admitted neglect. She's been feeding him (!) and getting him groomed twice a year and so on, but she's not been settled in one place herself - so now that she's got a permanent residence nearby, she's feeling a bit more able to do the things for the dog that he requires. It's the ONLY reason I'm willing to even have hte dog back.

I did try (last time) the straight arm on the noose and scoop with the other arm approach - dog far too wise to it and freaked - spinning pooping and that's when teh nose bleed started. He never bashed his head or nose - it was purely from stress!

I agree that 99%of the time the school marm style works for terrorist terriers. On this occasion I think I need a different approach. The first view visits thats exactly the tactic I used and it seemed to fuel the rage. I had this with another westie that was just absolutely terrified in to aggression - another one that peed and poo'd the second she arrived, you couldn't lift her and several other issues. Now, some years later, she wags her tail when she sees me, doesn't void her bladder / bowels, and lets me lift. Nails are still a big no-no. I wouldn't say she loves being groomed, but she's far easier and more tolerant. However, it's almost back to square one if someone else in my shop tries to groom her unless they do things exactly the way I tell them.

Cayla, the westie you describe sounds like it's probably got an entirely miserable existence- completely spoiled in to nastiness. What a shame. I used to groom something like that too - funny - another westie. The first time it came to see me it was for table training at 6 months old. It was so weird about going near it on the floor or lifting it, it raked his claws up and down my arms and kept trying to bite my face - this was a PUPPY! Anyway, it did go somewhere else for it's second or third trim (I wastoo expensive?!) and then they came back to me another several times and it got better over time, and was a lovely dog... and then the people never came back. You spend time working thru a dog's issues and this is the loyalty they repay you with?

 

[PucciNPoni]

As if the above wasn't long enough...

I do have a drying cabinet...and oddly, once the dog is ON the table, he's actually brand new. I can do his nails, brush his face, HV blast -- the lot. I even was able to inspect his bloody nose that time. He used to not allow his face to be brushed, but his owner's daughter had him staying with her for a wee bit, and she worked that issue out at home - and it's transferred. So I think the dog is definitely working out to be a willing one. I suspect the lifting problems may very well be either pain related or just fear. I think maybe fear because of the way he reacts when momma is there with him, and the fact that he'd have my face off in the reception area if I got too close....