Under the Spell of Horses.

[Over2You]

Did any of you see the first episode of Under the Spell of Horses on Horse and Country last night? I did and was left with a somewhat bitter taste in my mouth. It told the story of three different groups of horse people in Argentina. There was a community of Gauchos, a polo player and breeders of polo ponies, and the rubbish collecting cart horses in Buenos Aires.

I didn't agree with a lot of what the Gauchos did. When selecting wild Criollo horses, they penned them in a narrow chute and forced a bridle on them. Saying the ones that would "lead" would be the easiest to train. The poor horses were absolutely petrified. They then sent them down a really steep and slippery chute for a disinfecting bath. Way to make a horse break its leg! Later on they were at a festival and rode one of the recently rounded-up horses for the first time. The crowd just laughed as the horse bucked around in sheer terror. As for the polo pony segments - I was horrified. They wrestled a foal which was only a few months old, to the ground, and sat on the poor thing. When he got up, he looked really scared. They said that was a non-violent method. They also shoved the ponies onto a truck like a handler would a racehorse into a starting box. This was after saying they practised natural horsemanship. The "horse factory" they visited produces one thousand foals a year, but only a very few of them make the grade for polo. It (rather unsurprisingly) failed to say what happens to the rest of them. At least I was pleasantly surprised at how well looked after some of the cart horses were, and that they had a vet on hand to treat them 24/7. However, some of the injuries they sustained on the job were horrific. A horse had one of her ears cut off, and another beaten on the eye and left blinded.

Next week, it's Morocco. Hopefully we won't see anymore horse abuse.

 

[Onyxia]

On the whole I enjoyed it and look forward to the next one.
Yes,things are not as they are here,but that does not always make it "wrong" All groups shown were IMO doing the best they could and trying to make things better.

Have to admit the truck was a bit of a heart stopper when you think about how we travel ours,but then we do have a tendendy to wrap everything precious to us up that little bit too much

 

[Katikins]

You have to remember that what is seen as acceptable in the UK is of an exceptionally high standard. Even just moving here I noticed a LOT of differences in how horses were kept (very small stables, very limited turnout the majority of the time, tying to solid object etc) and that is just a country a hop skip and a jump across the North Sea. Just think about how differently things will be done in a South American country. Difficult to make any more general comments though as I've not seen it. But it can be easy to judge something just because we don't understand.

 

[alfiesmum]

i watched it last week, it was on late.
it was upsetting watching them tying the horse to the tree then hobbling it too!

different cultures have different ideas
it was way better than the programme a few months ago where they ate their best horses!

 

[Over2You]

I agree, alfiesmum. The tying up and hobbling wasn't a pleasant spectacle. You are right, though - miles better than eating them.

Animals should NEVER suffer just because of "culture." How anyone can justify abuse using that reason is beyond me.

 

[Onyxia]

i watched it last week, it was on late.
it was upsetting watching them tying the horse to the tree then hobbling it too!

different cultures have different ideas
it was way better than the programme a few months ago where they ate their best horses!

If I remember rightly,they ate the older mares who had not foaled for a couple of years.
They were out in the wilderness,not around the corner from Tesco and the horses had a pretty good life all in all.
To us horses are pets or sporting partners,in other parts of the world they are also food.There is nothing wrong with that.

As Katikins has said,we have a very high standard of animal welfare in the UK -ours are leisure animals kept in luxury because we love them and because that high standard is what we see every day we think of it as normal and the right way.
I agree some aspects of the show were not nice to watch,but then neither are some of the ways we restrain horses here.I saw horses that were clearly loved,respected and treated as well as their owners knowledge and finances alowed.

 

[_MizElz_]

If I remember rightly,they ate the older mares who had not foaled for a couple of years.
They were out in the wilderness,not around the corner from Tesco and the horses had a pretty good life all in all.

.

If you're thinking of the same programme I am (Horse People, on the BBC?) then yes, those horses had a good life. Their deaths, however, are a different matter. The way that mare was killed still haunts me to this day. They chased her into a corral, and at first she was so terrified she jumped out and escaped - they caught her again, and lassooed her. The rope pulled tight around her throat, and they reeled her in using a wooden post in the centre of the corral. She was choking, but still clearly terrified, and still they continued to tug her into the centre. Eventually she collapsed, whereby they took an axe and began to hack at her head until she died.

I totally agree with the comment earlier that 'culture' should NEVER be used as an excuse for cruelty. Koreans skin dogs whilst they're still alive. That's part of their culture for sure - but it will never, ever make it right.

 

[AmyMay]

I agree, alfiesmum. The tying up and hobbling wasn't a pleasant spectacle. You are right, though - miles better than eating them.

Animals should NEVER suffer just because of "culture." How anyone can justify abuse using that reason is beyond me.

How anyone can compare hobbling and consumption is beyond me.

However, I too agree that culture should never be an excuse for cruelty or abuse.

 

[Onyxia]

I remember how it was done thankyou
Do I agree with it? Not a chance,but then should I ever need a horse PTS there are very good methods avalable to me in the UK that were simply not an option to those men.
They ate the horses or had no food,they used the methods they felt best avalable to them.
Right? No. Wrong? Not at that time,not in that place.

The use of hobbles on horses and breaking practises that do not match our own is in no way the same as skinning dogs while still alive-there is enough comparrison between our own methods and those shown without jumping to "OMG shock" tactics thanks
No-one would defend what they perceive as cruel treatment because it is the culture of that country to do so,but sometimes the "not nice" methods ARE the best avalable.

 

[_MizElz_]

I remember how it was done thankyou
Do I agree with it? Not a chance,but then should I ever need a horse PTS there are very good methods avalable to me in the UK that were simply not an option to those men.
They ate the horses or had no food,they used the methods they felt best available to them.
Right? No. Wrong? Not at that time,not in that place.

No-one would defend what they perceive as cruel treatment because it is the culture of that country to do so,but sometimes the "not nice" methods ARE the best avalable.

I don't buy that, I'm afraid. No way was strangulation and axing in the head the best way available for that mare to be killed. In other parts of that programme, they clearly showed the men having contact with the horses, contact which did not require lasooing and strangulation. Slitting that mare's throat would have been a whole lot quicker and less traumatic for her than having them slash at her head three times with an axe. They're barbarians, and nothing will convince me otherwise. It isnt the fact that they eat horses that bothers me (it may not be something I personally agree with, but I can accept that eating horsemeat is a part of their culture) It's the totally unnecessary and unacceptable manner in which they kill the poor things that chills me to the bone.

But this thread is not about Horse People - there was enough furore at the time. I havent yet seen Under The Spell, so I shall reserve judgement on that until I have watched it.

 

[Over2You]

If you're thinking of the same programme I am (Horse People, on the BBC?) then yes, those horses had a good life. Their deaths, however, are a different matter. The way that mare was killed still haunts me to this day. They chased her into a corral, and at first she was so terrified she jumped out and escaped - they caught her again, and lassooed her. The rope pulled tight around her throat, and they reeled her in using a wooden post in the centre of the corral. She was choking, but still clearly terrified, and still they continued to tug her into the centre. Eventually she collapsed, whereby they took an axe and began to hack at her head until she died.

I totally agree with the comment earlier that 'culture' should NEVER be used as an excuse for cruelty. Koreans skin dogs whilst they're still alive. That's part of their culture for sure - but it will never, ever make it right.

As well as the choking and repeatedly hammering her head, they also stabbed her for good measure. I can still see that mare trying to escape (she knew what was coming), and hear her gasping for air. What a barbaric way to kill any animal. If someone did that to an animal here, they'd be up on charges of animal cruelty. Yet, on the same breath, some people will say that because it's their "culture," that method is perfectly acceptable. There's nothing like having double standards. To me, those herdsmen are no more advanced than the cavemen of yesteryear who would run horses over a cliff.

 

[EAST KENT]

Back to Argentina! Superb horses and equally superb natural horseman.Loved that program

 

[Onyxia]

As well as the choking and repeatedly hammering her head, they also stabbed her for good measure. I can still see that mare trying to escape (she knew what was coming), and hear her gasping for air. What a barbaric way to kill any animal. If someone did that to an animal here, they'd be up on charges of animal cruelty. Yet, on the same breath, some people will say that because it's their "culture," that method is perfectly acceptable. There's nothing like having double standards. To me, those herdsmen are no more advanced than the cavemen of yesteryear who would run horses over a cliff.

So you Do get the point and just dont like it,fair enough

I have never said the way the mare in Horse People was killed was a job well done or to be copied.
What I DID say was that if that was the best method avalable to them they were right to use it-it was kill an animal for food or don't eat.


Under the spell of horses showed some things we would not do here,but nothing outragous or cruel-simply different.
If someone found their horse with an ear missing/severe eye infection and did not get the vet out ASAP here it would be disgusting-the slum horse owners did what they could(and the lady vet working there is a saint!).


I am looking forward to the next one

 

[MagicMelon]

I didnt see it but just watched the clip on H&C TV website. Have to say I didnt even like the first bit of Morocco - some dude making his horse rear, poor horse frequently opening his mouth due to the horrid bit in its mouth, it horrifies me that people dont see this isnt acceptable. And he talks about "being a good rider". A good rider makes his horse comfortable in his tack for a start and refrains from yanking it in the mouth.

 

[padderpaws]

I think the series "Under the spell of horses" is excellent. It shows us in this country that there is a whole world out there that breed, work, show and ride their horses completely successfully without having to consult an English person. Of course there is cruelty, like the cutting off of that poor unfortunate horses ear. But let us not forget that mindless thugs attach fire works to horses in this country every bonfire night for their own sick entertainment. Its on the news every year. If that was shown on their TV I wonder what they would think of us. There are some very talented horse trainers around the world who have never seen a martingale, English saddle etc but still manage to have a wonderful relationship with there horse.

As for Korea, Well that is a different thread entirely.

 

[Holly Hocks]

As well as the choking and repeatedly hammering her head, they also stabbed her for good measure. I can still see that mare trying to escape (she knew what was coming), and hear her gasping for air. What a barbaric way to kill any animal. If someone did that to an animal here, they'd be up on charges of animal cruelty. Yet, on the same breath, some people will say that because it's their "culture," that method is perfectly acceptable. There's nothing like having double standards. To me, those herdsmen are no more advanced than the cavemen of yesteryear who would run horses over a cliff.

Totally agree with Over2you an Mizelz. Tradition and culture don't make things right.

 

[padderpaws]

I also totally agree that culture and tradition are no excuse for animal cruelty. The Hunting of foxes in this country is said to be our culture and tradition?????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Over2You]

I also totally agree that culture and tradition are no excuse for animal cruelty. The Hunting of foxes in this country is said to be our culture and tradition?????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At least we banned that!!!!!!!!! Don't see any of the other countries mentioned on this thread doing anything to improve animal welfare!!!!!!

On a side note - it FINALLY looks as if Spain is putting a stop to bull fighting. I'm not sure if it's been banned nation wide or just in a specific region. Can someone please enlighten me. Thanks.

 

[zefragile]

At least we banned that!!!!!!!!! Don't see any of the other countries mentioned on this thread doing anything to improve animal welfare!!!!!!

On a side note - it FINALLY looks as if Spain is putting a stop to bull fighting. I'm not sure if it's been banned nation wide or just in a specific region. Can someone please enlighten me. Thanks.

Just Catalonia, AFAIK.

 

[perfect11s]

I remember how it was done thankyou
Do I agree with it? Not a chance,but then should I ever need a horse PTS there are very good methods avalable to me in the UK that were simply not an option to those men.
They ate the horses or had no food,they used the methods they felt best avalable to them.
Right? No. Wrong? Not at that time,not in that place.

The use of hobbles on horses and breaking practises that do not match our own is in no way the same as skinning dogs while still alive-there is enough comparrison between our own methods and those shown without jumping to "OMG shock" tactics thanks
No-one would defend what they perceive as cruel treatment because it is the culture of that country to do so,but sometimes the "not nice" methods ARE the best avalable.

Why try to justify cruelty .. if its wrong its wrong.... in any country

 

[Onyxia]

Why try to justify cruelty .. if its wrong its wrong.... in any country

I am not trying to justify it,not trying to defend it.
Would like people to open their eyes a bit though
Cruel to me is having options and taking the nasty one. Doing the best you can with what you have avalable is not cruel.

At least we banned that!!!!!!!!! Don't see any of the other countries mentioned on this thread doing anything to improve animal welfare!!!!!!

And many would argue it is a step back for the fox....

What exactly should the countries featured in the show be doing?
Argentina episode showed no cruel treatment,just methods we would not choose to use.
India and Moroco showed people doing the best they could with the tools and education they have-what more can you ask?
How many horses will be PTS this year because their owners have over fed them? THAT is cruel.Lammi is preventable.
How many will break down because they were asked to do too much too young? THAT is cruel.
How many will have **** feet because owner did not get one of the highly trained farriers we have here out? THAT is cruel.

UTSOH NOT the UK and you can't expect poor countries to do as we do-our horses are pets(even the comp hores,we don't need to work them) kept mostly by people with the funds,tools and education to treat them extremly well,that is simply not the case everywhere in the world.

 

[perfect11s]

I am not trying to justify it,not trying to defend it.
Would like people to open their eyes a bit though
Cruel to me is having options and taking the nasty one. Doing the best you can with what you have avalable is not cruel.


And many would argue it is a step back for the fox....

What exactly should the countries featured in the show be doing?
Argentina episode showed no cruel treatment,just methods we would not choose to use.
India and Moroco showed people doing the best they could with the tools and education they have-what more can you ask?
How many horses will be PTS this year because their owners have over fed them? THAT is cruel.Lammi is preventable.
How many will break down because they were asked to do too much too young? THAT is cruel.
How many will have **** feet because owner did not get one of the highly trained farriers we have here out? THAT is cruel.

UTSOH NOT the UK and you can't expect poor countries to do as we do-our horses are pets(even the comp hores,we don't need to work them) kept mostly by people with the funds,tools and education to treat them extremly well,that is simply not the case everywhere in the world.

OH fine!!! on that line of thinking I guess you would find child labour and sweat shop garment production OK...

 

[padderpaws]

I think that many of us (including me probably) should get over our selves in this country as far as looking after horses are concerned. The Gauchos in Argentina are extremely proud of their horses as are we. The horses are not kept as pets but as working partners for their owners. Some have better lives and upbringing than others. The same happens here also. The people we saw in Morocco were clearly smitten and proud of their horses also. The beautiful tack and fantastic riding skills speak for themselves. I saw nothing wrong in the way the Indian people were with their horses either although I think we all know how terrible life is for the majority of Indian working horses and their owners in the slums.

I thought this thread was about the TV show "Under the spell of horses" not child labour or horrific Korean slaughter methods. I for one am very much looking forward to the show tonight from Iceland. However if they do visit Korea I would not dare watch.

 

[Over2You]

I think that many of us (including me probably) should get over our selves in this country as far as looking after horses are concerned. The Gauchos in Argentina are extremely proud of their horses as are we. The horses are not kept as pets but as working partners for their owners. Some have better lives and upbringing than others. The same happens here also. The people we saw in Morocco were clearly smitten and proud of their horses also. The beautiful tack and fantastic riding skills speak for themselves. I saw nothing wrong in the way the Indian people were with their horses either although I think we all know how terrible life is for the majority of Indian working horses and their owners in the slums.

I thought this thread was about the TV show "Under the spell of horses" not child labour or horrific Korean slaughter methods. I for one am very much looking forward to the show tonight from Iceland. However if they do visit Korea I would not dare watch.

The Moroccan episode did not do much to convince me they are brilliant horsemen. Most of the time the horses went around with their mouths gaping. A tell tale sign of ill fitting tack and being jarred in the mouth - NOT beautiful tack or fantastic horsemanship. They also hobble their horses. That grey horse was blooming lucky he didn't break a leg when resisting his hobbles. Their "coach" horse was really thin - if they can feed their show horses, then why not that poor creature?

I have yet to see the Indian episode and I'm not too optimistic about tonight's from Iceland.

 

[padderpaws]

Like I said over2you you need to get over yourself. I have seen many ill fitting tack and gaping mouths in this country. Horses being brought back from the Hunt with mouths cut to ribbens and bleeding. Horses being hit with the whip repeatably until they jump the jump or cross the finishing line. Horses sweating so profusely it"s shameful in top class dressage. BUT there are many good things too. This country is NOT the b all and end all in horsemanship in my opinion, and I am taking it that I have a right to have one without a snotty comment back at me.

 

[Cobber]

Ive watched the three previous ones but i totally forgot about tonights.

Was it any good?

 

[Over2You]

Like I said over2you you need to get over yourself. I have seen many ill fitting tack and gaping mouths in this country. Horses being brought back from the Hunt with mouths cut to ribbens and bleeding. Horses being hit with the whip repeatably until they jump the jump or cross the finishing line. Horses sweating so profusely it"s shameful in top class dressage. BUT there are many good things too. This country is NOT the b all and end all in horsemanship in my opinion, and I am taking it that I have a right to have one without a snotty comment back at me.

I honestly don't know where you get "snotty" from at all. Nothing in my post suggested I was anywhere near being rude or nasty. I am sorry that you took offence, but I was only stating that the horses featured in the programme had horrendous bits in their mouths and the riders hadn't a clue how to ride without inflicting pain. I remember a British magazine making the decision not to use animals again in its photo shoots because of this. They received a high number of complaints after a male model rode a horse who was clearly very uncomfortable in the mouth due to the guy yanking his mouth as much. I was also commenting on how a horse just about broke his leg due to being hobbled. The coach horse was really skinny and I also passed a remark about that. Sure there is a lot of cruelty in this country too. I hate racing with a passion and I do not agree with a lot of training methods for other horse sports. Nor do I think every British rider is perfect. However, we Brits do have much higher standards than a lot of other countries when it comes to animal welfare.

 

[ISHmad]

Ive watched the three previous ones but i totally forgot about tonights.

Was it any good?

Well I enjoyed it. Some beautiful ponies and my goodness they were sure footed and agile. They were real workhorses when it came to driving the ponies up on to summer grazing, going on routes to check suitability for horse riding holidays etc. Makes me realise just how under worked my horses are. And how all those hours in the saddle gives the horses and their riders a real partnership.

Another thing to add to the list of things to do before I die is to have a tolt on an Icelandic pony. Looks like great fun.

This will be repeated sometime this week but I'm not sure which night. If you have a look at Horse & Country TV website it should have the listings on there.

 

[padderpaws]

Yes they are all very fair points you made Over2you and I agree with them. Good thread.

 

[ISHmad]

If anyone is interested the programme with the Icelandics in it is being repeated at 7pm tonight I believe.