Unhandled 2 year old - Groundhog Day

[Oswald1975]

Hi,
I took the plunge after years of toying with the idea and bought a 2 year old NF … Hugo .
I have had horses all my life but a youngster is a new exciting venture .
However, I’m starting to doubt myself.
I believe Hugo was gelded in the crush then put to pasture with a herd of other yearlings and left for another year. I bought him from the field .
I have bought every book, asked numerous friends for advise but after 4 weeks I feel like i am in the Groundhog Day Movie ( for those who do not know, the same day gets repeated over and over )
It took a week to even get near Hugo but eventually he let me touch him .
Now 3 weeks later it’s the same progress every day …
In the morning he will walk up to me and follow me to get his breakfast but won’t let me touch him.
After his breakfast I sit in his stable and I can touch his cheek but that’s as far as he allows me .
Lunchtime I poo pick and he follows me around and he lets me touch his cheek a few times .
Dinner time I hold the feed bowl on my lap and I can run my hand up and down his neck and face … Amazing .
However, the next day in morning, we are back to not getting near him again.
My question is am I being impatient?
Should I be further on in 4 weeks ?
All I can think is at this rate it’s going to take months to get his head collar on and get his feet trimmed .

 

[Jenko109]

I would halter him for his breakfast.

Start by rubbing his face with the rope while you hold his feed bucket (or I prefer a scoop as easier to manage with one hand) then you can widen the nose and pop that over the scoop so he has to put his nose through to eat the feed. If you have it long enough then you just pop the halter over his ears without actually having to touch them.

I would get him halter broken first and formost as you will be able to work on touching him so much easier when he is on a halter.

To add, I would be using a rope halter. The type you see in native pony showing. So you dont have to mess about with buckles and can halter with one hand.

 

[Jinx94]

I second Jenko109, but appreciate that it's skipping a step for you!

Tris was barely handled when I first got him as a weanling and it took ages - admittedly I made several decisions then (such as immediate turnout) that I wouldn't make now. Regarding the headcollar, two of us got hold of him in the stable - gently, quietly and firmly. BUT he was much smaller than Hugo probably is.

It sounds like Hugo is really inquisitive by nature, use that! has he seen a headcollar yet? I would let him have a sniff, hold the strap in your hand and run that up and down his neck, do whatever you have to to make him 'want' the headcollar. Jenko's instructions are great but be aware that when you get it over his ears, he may react to it - wear gloves/hat etc.

With regards to progressing the handling, my job at the stud I worked at was to turn the feral arab yearlings into relatively well mannered citizens. It was honestly the best part of my job ❤ they were halter broken to the point that you could get a headcollar on them but that was it.

The main technique that I used - and still use on any horse that is uncomfortable with having specific areas touched, it's very handy with horses that are nervous to clip ime - is a sort of approach and retreat. I would find a point that they're comfortable with me touching and using slow, rhythmic strokes would gradually extend the area. I would literally do one that pushed their boundaries and retreat back to the 'safe' area, and then step away with the very nervous ones. Even with 5-10 mins a day, they come around to it fairly quickly

 

[Oswald1975]

I would halter him for his breakfast.

Start by rubbing his face with the rope while you hold his feed bucket (or I prefer a scoop as easier to manage with one hand) then you can widen the nose and pop that over the scoop so he has to put his nose through to eat the feed. If you have it long enough then you just pop the halter over his ears without actually having to touch them.

I would get him halter broken first and formost as you will be able to work on touching him so much easier when he is on a halter.

To add, I would be using a rope halter. The type you see in native pony showing. So you dont have to mess about with buckles and can halter with one hand.

Thank you ! I like the scoop idea . It’s hard work holding a feed bucket with one hand . The head collar is in the bucket but it’s quite stiff to rub the strap on his face. I will look at the rope halter as well .

 

[Oswald1975]

I second Jenko109, but appreciate that it's skipping a step for you!

Tris was barely handled when I first got him as a weanling and it took ages - admittedly I made several decisions then (such as immediate turnout) that I wouldn't make now. Regarding the headcollar, two of us got hold of him in the stable - gently, quietly and firmly. BUT he was much smaller than Hugo probably is.

It sounds like Hugo is really inquisitive by nature, use that! has he seen a headcollar yet? I would let him have a sniff, hold the strap in your hand and run that up and down his neck, do whatever you have to to make him 'want' the headcollar. Jenko's instructions are great but be aware that when you get it over his ears, he may react to it - wear gloves/hat etc.

With regards to progressing the handling, my job at the stud I worked at was to turn the feral arab yearlings into relatively well mannered citizens. It was honestly the best part of my job ❤ they were halter broken to the point that you could get a headcollar on them but that was it.

The main technique that I used - and still use on any horse that is uncomfortable with having specific areas touched, it's very handy with horses that are nervous to clip ime - is a sort of approach and retreat. I would find a point that they're comfortable with me touching and using slow, rhythmic strokes would gradually extend the area. I would literally do one that pushed their boundaries and retreat back to the 'safe' area, and then step away with the very nervous ones. Even with 5-10 mins a day, they come around to it fairly quickly

Thank you for that advice , I will definitely try the retreat tip . Hugo is very inquisitive which I like and will probably help the process

 

[YourValentine]

Its hard not seeing Hugo in the flesh, but after 4 weeks I'd be asking more of him to get his feed. So if he wants the scoop/bucket he has to accept being touched, or rubbed with a rope.

He's had long enough to get used to you and associate the bucket with goodies.

There is a risk that he learns that all he has to do is come near you and he gets food, but that's all. Why should he accept/do more if just coming near you = food.
The above suggestions about a rope halter are really good.

I've worked with unhandled youngsters before and after 4 weeks if they weren't terrified of me or showing fear/stress at my presence, I'd be expecting/asking for more.

I saw this really well explained in a fb post, but basically (para phrasing) feral horse bought and put in a pen, owner couldn't get near him. After a few weeks got so she could go in and muck out and he'd run to the far corner and stand still insteadof dashing about in a panic the whole time, but wouldn't approach her. In this stalemate for a while. Poster that she'd called in for help explained that horse had learnt he was 'safe' (no stress or further ask) if he stayed out the way so he did.
He said next step was to go in and muck out, but ignoring him with your body language keep moving towards him to pick up imaginary poos, if necessary, so he has to keep moving away from you or stand and let you get closer.
Over the next few weeks horse stopped moving away, as he 'learnt' in as low stress way as possible, running didn't equal escape. And from there built on the approaching him, touching etc.

I thought it was a good explanation of why an action might not deliver the response you want, and to think about what you are unintentionally teaching. If my para phrasing makes sense...

 

[Jinx94]

I will add that when I got Tris I discovered very, very quickly that I didn't know as much/wasn't as confident as I thought I was which did delay the process.

I was employed at the Arab stud and so it was slightly time sensitive - my boss would give me two weeks tops for a pair. I also had more knowledge and experience with young stock by then.

With the knowledge/experience I have now, I would say that I'd expect to have got further in 4 weeks BUT I don't know your circumstances and I don't know what Hugo's reactions are like. If you are able to get someone else there, even just for you to bounce ideas off, it can be really helpful

 

[Spotherisk]

This is a great book, and explains haltering very well. Going from the top (of the head, poll, the mane) does work better for me than going for the muzzle.

https://www.moorlandmousietrust.org.uk/product-page/no-fear-no-force-book

 

[Marigold4]

There is an excellent book called "no fear, no force" specifically about working with unhandled New Forest ponies.

 

[Oswald1975]

Its hard not seeing Hugo in the flesh, but after 4 weeks I'd be asking more of him to get his feed. So if he wants the scoop/bucket he has to accept being touched, or rubbed with a rope.

He's had long enough to get used to you and associate the bucket with goodies.

There is a risk that he learns that all he has to do is come near you and he gets food, but that's all. Why should he accept/do more if just coming near you = food.
The above suggestions about a rope halter are really good.

I've worked with unhandled youngsters before and after 4 weeks if they weren't terrified of me or showing fear/stress at my presence, I'd be expecting/asking for more.

I saw this really well explained in a fb post, but basically (para phrasing) feral horse bought and put in a pen, owner couldn't get near him. After a few weeks got so she could go in and muck out and he'd run to the far corner and stand still insteadof dashing about in a panic the whole time, but wouldn't approach her. In this stalemate for a while. Poster that she'd called in for help explained that horse had learnt he was 'safe' (no stress or further ask) if he stayed out the way so he did.
He said next step was to go in and muck out, but ignoring him with your body language keep moving towards him to pick up imaginary poos, if necessary, so he has to keep moving away from you or stand and let you get closer.
Over the next few weeks horse stopped moving away, as he 'learnt' in as low stress way as possible, running didn't equal escape. And from there built on the approaching him, touching etc.

I thought it was a good explanation of why an action might not deliver the response you want, and to think about what you are unintentionally teaching. If my para phrasing makes sense...

Thank you .. this makes sense . Lots of good advice on here

 

[Oswald1975]

There is an excellent book called "no fear, no force" specifically about working with unhandled New Forest ponies.

Hi
I tried this technique from this book a few times but I found it was making him aggressive so I stopped and got further not using the fake hand in a stick .

 

[maya2008]

I would expect 4 months for something aged 2+ from fully feral to fully handled (walking out in hand, can get a rug on/off, brush, fly spray, pick out feet, vaccinated). That's taking it at the speed it goes when you haven't done it lots before, have limited time in a day and have the pony turned out not in a stable. Groundhog Day is about right. Once you've got them, you can get them again and again in the same session, so that's useless. Give it 30min and it's like they've never seen you before! Should be slightly quicker every few days though, until you can walk straight up to them and work with them. I try to do 3-4x a day, walk them down until you can touch them, click/kissing sound/good girl/whatever then treat (long carrot fingers so no chance of losing part of you!). Then walk away. Try again later. And so on, progressing from touching with hand, to touching with headcollar, rubbing it over them, getting them to touch it, then put their nose in it, then tolerate it being done up.

Goes quicker in a stable, quicker if you can do more in a day/have help.

Hi
I tried this technique from this book a few times but I found it was making him aggressive so I stopped and got further not using the fake hand in a stick .

Same here! Our first feral we had, bought that book. Abandoned the idea very fast!. It probably works with weanlings, but didn't with a 2yo!

 

[Spotherisk]

I didn’t use the hand on the stick technique, I was recommending the book for haltering

 

[Snow Falcon]

Hi, welcome to NF ownership . First question, what's his passported name please, pm me if you'd rather not say on open forum. Or just tell me the sire and dam and I'll look it up.

He needs to learn that touch doesn't hurt. Can you get him in a smaller area to touch him? Rubbing his face with a soft cloth will introduce something new that is nice. Have you tried touching anywhere else?

 

[Oswald1975]

I would expect 4 months for something aged 2+ from fully feral to fully handled (walking out in hand, can get a rug on/off, brush, fly spray, pick out feet, vaccinated). That's taking it at the speed it goes when you haven't done it lots before, have limited time in a day and have the pony turned out not in a stable. Groundhog Day is about right. Once you've got them, you can get them again and again in the same session, so that's useless. Give it 30min and it's like they've never seen you before! Should be slightly quicker every few days though, until you can walk straight up to them and work with them. I try to do 3-4x a day, walk them down until you can touch them, click/kissing sound/good girl/whatever then treat (long carrot fingers so no chance of losing part of you!). Then walk away. Try again later. And so on, progressing from touching with hand, to touching with headcollar, rubbing it over them, getting them to touch it, then put their nose in it, then tolerate it being done up.

Goes quicker in a stable, quicker if you can do more in a day/have help.



Same here! Our first feral we had, bought that book. Abandoned the idea very fast!. It probably works with weanlings, but didn't with a 2yo!

Thank you

 

[Oswald1975]

Hi, welcome to NF ownership . First question, what's his passported name please, pm me if you'd rather not say on open forum. Or just tell me the sire and dam and I'll look it up.

He needs to learn that touch doesn't hurt. Can you get him in a smaller area to touch him? Rubbing his face with a soft cloth will introduce something new that is nice. Have you tried touching anywhere else?

Hi
He is called Brookshill Hugo . Sire is Sway Scrumpy Jack .
I can touch him in the stable , in the pen and in the 2 acre field , but only on his terms . One time he lets me , the next he will shy or spin with his ears back .

 

[Snow Falcon]

Reading through you posts, is he in during the day out at night? If he's been after gelding with minimal contact he could well be mistrusting of humans so that may take some time to build. It's easy to think you aren't making progress but think back to what he was like when you had him. I've handled quite a few feral foals and youngstock over the past few years, it can take time and patience. Others are a bit bolder and more inquistive.

 

[Oswald1975]

I would halter him for his breakfast.

Start by rubbing his face with the rope while you hold his feed bucket (or I prefer a scoop as easier to manage with one hand) then you can widen the nose and pop that over the scoop so he has to put his nose through to eat the feed. If you have it long enough then you just pop the halter over his ears without actually having to touch them.

I would get him halter broken first and formost as you will be able to work on touching him so much easier when he is on a halter.

To add, I would be using a rope halter. The type you see in native pony showing. So you dont have to mess about with buckles and can halter with one hand.

Hi
Quick question, once I get the rope halter on, do I leave it on ?
I have a field safe head collar but I have ordered a rope halter to try .

 

[Jenko109]

Hi
Quick question, once I get the rope halter on, do I leave it on ?
I have a field safe head collar but I have ordered a rope halter to try .

No. You won't be able to leave a rope halter on.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I will add that when I got Tris I discovered very, very quickly that I didn't know as much/wasn't as confident as I thought I was which did delay the process.

I was employed at the Arab stud and so it was slightly time sensitive - my boss would give me two weeks tops for a pair. I also had more knowledge and experience with young stock by then.

With the knowledge/experience I have now, I would say that I'd expect to have got further in 4 weeks BUT I don't know your circumstances and I don't know what Hugo's reactions are like. If you are able to get someone else there, even just for you to bounce ideas off, it can be really helpful

Can I be nosy and ask which Arab stud you worked at ?

 

[Jinx94]

Can I be nosy and ask which Arab stud you worked at ?

Sure! I worked at Claverdon Stud for the Lowes

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Sure! I worked at Claverdon Stud for the Lowes

Yes I have heard of them

 

[AWinter]

Good clicker training can help you with this, I’ve done several very feral/nervous babies like this. It’s about building positive associations with people rather than just trying to touch them until they accept it.

Had an extremely frightened 2yo cob who wouldn’t come near after being shoved in the crush and smacked in the face by the breeder. He now self halters, has had his feet trimmed and is the quietest baby on the yard.

 

[Gloi]

I find that if you can find their favourite itchy spot , and they all seem to have one this time of year, it can work wonders.

 

[vhf]

I believe Hugo was gelded in the crush then put to pasture with a herd of other yearlings and left for another year. I bought him from the field .
It took a week to even get near Hugo but eventually he let me touch him .
My question is am I being impatient?
Should I be further on in 4 weeks ?
All I can think is at this rate it’s going to take months to get his head collar on and get his feet trimmed .

Many, many years ago I had one that was roped and hogtied to be gelded. We got him and another the same at 5, having run feral ever since. It literally took six months for him to be approaching normal to handle. The other never made it, he's randomly try and kill anyone who went near him (no exaggeration). Weirdly he accepted my mother first, even though it was me who spent hours with him 'being nice'. She came along for about half an hour and bossed us both about! He'd follow her to the ends of the earth after a few weeks. Then once he'd learned I was his friend, he'd do anything for me, but nobody else... We got there eventually, he made rather a nice little horse. Only one I've ever taught medium trot to on the lunge and longreins before I ever got in the saddle! (I'm not that fit any more mind).

 

[Oswald1975]

I would expect 4 months for something aged 2+ from fully feral to fully handled (walking out in hand, can get a rug on/off, brush, fly spray, pick out feet, vaccinated). That's taking it at the speed it goes when you haven't done it lots before, have limited time in a day and have the pony turned out not in a stable. Groundhog Day is about right. Once you've got them, you can get them again and again in the same session, so that's useless. Give it 30min and it's like they've never seen you before! Should be slightly quicker every few days though, until you can walk straight up to them and work with them. I try to do 3-4x a day, walk them down until you can touch them, click/kissing sound/good girl/whatever then treat (long carrot fingers so no chance of losing part of you!). Then walk away. Try again later. And so on, progressing from touching with hand, to touching with headcollar, rubbing it over them, getting them to touch it, then put their nose in it, then tolerate it being done up.

Goes quicker in a stable, quicker if you can do more in a day/have help.



Same here! Our first feral we had, bought that book. Abandoned the idea very fast!. It probably works with weanlings, but didn't with a 2yo!

I just wanted to say thank you !
I have tried with a new attitude , to expect more and walk away . Just these 2 statements seem to have helped .
2 days now I have walked straight up to him and touched his cheek then moved down his neck and withers , treat then walked away . Every time I go back to him, I ask for more and when he gives it he gets the treat and walk away again .
When he comes to me , I fuss him but he gets no treat as I don’t want him pestering people for treats. This morning and at midday he accepted fuss with no treat after .
Today is a good day

 

[Lucky Snowball]

Keep a diary of what you’re doing and if you have a ‘bad’ day, look back and see how far you’ve come.

 

[tda]

Also don't forget to some days don't do anything.

I had the book mentioned above, some things didn't work on my filly , but other bits did, so just keep trying.

Youngsters are also pretty nosy, so go in the field with a shovel/bucket/whatever, make yourself look busy, ignoring them and they will be straight over to help ☺

 

[Oswald1975]

Needed help but this happened today.
Thanks for all your advise .

 

[Snow Falcon]

Yay!! Fabulous, hope he's more accepting of it now. On, off, scratch, on, off, scratch, on, off, scratch.