unpaid livery

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luane1

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I remember sometime ago a thread about someone who had unpaid livery bills and the legal position about being able to possess/ sell the horses in question to recover the debt, but I havent been able to find it. The situation basically is that a friend of mine was given a horse to bring on and compete and she agreed to charge the guy a certain sum, this worked well for about 1 year but was very hard work as the horse is not an easy ride but had potential, the owner got in debt to the girl but paid her about 3 months late and then suddenly he stopped paying, she doesnt have his address just a mobile number and has basically just vanished off the face of the earth. He owes her about £4,000 and she wasnt able to continue with the horse without being paid so she put the horse out on grass a few months ago. She now has to bring the horse away from that grass and doesnt know how she stands with trying to recover the debt or selling the horse - any advice.
 
I think she is in her right to sell the horse and keep all of the money the owner owes her then give any monies left over back to the owner. - im assuming she has given him plenty of time to pay and keeps advising him of the amount he owes? Does she have leagal cover on her horse insurance? maybe speak to the legal team and see what they have to say

I know a YO who sold a horse at a sale because the livery wouldnt pay her bill - I think it was cheaper for her to buy her horse back at auction than it was to pay her bill - she did however sign a contract stating that if there were any monies owing and she didnt pay within a certain time period (or payment plan agreed with YO) that the YO was within his rights to sell the horse and recover any monies owning.
 
The only problem is that she only has a mobile number for this guy and up until 4 months ago he answered it, it doesnt respond now so he either changed his number or been cut off, so she cant contact him, I asked her if she could find out an address as I believe that if she notifies him in writing of her intentions she could keep or sell the horse against the debt. Obviously she doesnt want to put any more of her time into this horse as it will be her efforts that will make the horse more valuable at the moment I would say the horse is worth about £3,500 - £4,000 but if she takes him to the next level he could be worth considerably more but it would take her another 6 months of patient hard work to achieve this. She doesnt want to break the law but the information she has had on this guy is that he has a drink problem and is now not working so he doesnt have any way of paying the debt
 
oh dear doesnt sound like a very nice sitaution for your friend to be in. Sounds like hes got in over his head and has now gone passed being able to sort it.
Does she know his address? could she pop round and see him to discuss it? maybe she could agree with him that he sign over all ownership to her then she can either keep the mare and bring on to sell, then she would recoup her money and a bit more or agree with him to sell it now and recoup her money that way? just a thought. If your friend doesnt have legal cover im sure a solicitor could point her in the right direction.
 
I believe you are allowed to sell a horse to recover a debt owed to you. From any money raised from the sale you are allowed to remove the outstanding debt to you & the remainder goes to the wner of he horse.

The money owed to your friend needs to be itemised, livery, schooling, etc so that the amount owed can be accurately assessed.

However, as the owner is unable to be contacted I would seek concrete legal advise from a solicitor regarding how to actually put this sale into motion. There may be some action you need to take prior to a sale so that there will be no recourse on the new owner or yourself. There will be passport issues that need to be resolved, if you are not in possession of it. Good Luck
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She is doing everything she can to find his address, she has contacted the guy the horse was bought from to see if he can shed any light on it. She doesnt have legal cover but I would agree that she needs proper advice or ir could be a very nasty situation, she has the passport as she registered the horse for the owner c/o of her address. I will see that she itemises the bill of what she is owed she presumes that the only way would be to take the horse to the sales and buy him in if he doesnt reach a good price, there is no reason to assume that the horse is worth alot at the moment as she doesnt have a brilliant record but she has reasonable breeding.
 
Does she have proof that he has paid her in the past - e.g. copies of receipts etc.? If so, I would think that this shows that there was an agreement between them that he pay for the horse's keep and training. She needs specialist legal advice before taking any action.
 
I would get in touch with my solicitor if I were your friend.

I'm sure Henryhorn posted or at least responded to a post about this in the past.
 
This is a very common problem. It centres around whether your daughter has a "lien" over the horse, which is a legal right to hang on to it until bills are paid. You will have one if you have put something into the thing you want to hang on to, or it can be contractual. Horses are difficult. For instance, if you put your car into a garage to have work done and parts put on, then the garage has a lien over your car until you pay for the work and parts, because until you do, the garage still owns them. If you don't pay and just abandon the car, the garage will usually be able to sell the car either because their contractual terms and conditions allow them to where a a bill remains unpaid or by following a procedure laid down in an Act called the Tort (Interference With Goods) Act 1977. Is fiddly, but can be done. It involves issuing notices requiring the owner to collect the "goods" and if they don't, then you issue a notice of intention to sell. You can do the two together sometimes. The notices have to be in specific places. Your local Trading Standards office may help, or search the web for the Act.

Normally, you wouldn't have a lien over, say, an unpaid livery, because you haven't put anything into it. The easiest way round this is to have a contract for all liveries that sets out what will happen if bills remain unpaid, and/or the horse appears abandoned. You would then have a contractual lien and a right to take steps as set out in your contract. It is arguable that your daughter has put something in to the horse -i.e., the schooling- for which she has not been paid and therefore does have a lien and could use the procedure under the Act. I have to say that although I have advised on this many times, I have not known anyone actually test this theory; any other lawyers on here may have experience of it, but no-one's ever come back to me to tell me what they've done!

Your daughter cannot legally just sell the horse as if it were hers as it doesn't belong to her so she cannot pass "good title" - legal phrase for legal ownership -to the purchaser. You cannot pass on what you haven't got. This would apply all down the line if the horse were sold on again and the original and true owner would always have the right to take the horse back from whoever thought they "owned" it and would not necessarily have to compensate them for it. The "owner" would have to go after the person they bought it from and so on.

As usual, I have to say that although I am a solicitor, I make these comments as general principles rather than individual advice to your daughter, particularly as I don't have full details and I can't be held responsible for any adverse consequences that occur as a result of her acting on, or failing to act on these comments alone. She should take independent advice from a solicitor of her choice, preferably one with commercial equine experience. And get contracts drawn up! They save such a lot of hassle when something happens, as the solution should be catered for in the contractual terms.
 
My yard owner claimed a horse for unpaid livery but it was all done through a solicitor -costs come from sale of the horse too.

She needs to take legal advice.
 
Thanks everyone it is a very difficult situation and I will suggest that she takes proper legal advice but it is the same with alot of horsey things that are taken on trust. She undertook to full livery this horse, put work into him and compete him to gain points, the intention of the owner were never clear as to whether the end result would be to sell or just to enjoy. At the beginning he was round with regular payments every month, he came to every show to see how his horse was going sometimes travelling over 3 hours just to watch and back home again. Then payments started to be late and the debt began to rise and the guy just disappeared and nobody has been able to locate him. If he has a drink problem then this behaviour would be typical, it is such a shame as the wee horse shows great promise but why should she put work into the horse and not get paid? I can see the need for proper contracts to cover this but it is a pity that this is how the world is going, put a foot wrong and you get sued when it was all in good faith. Thanks again.
 
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