Unraced TB Mares

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Luke7

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Hi H&H Forums,

Me and my partner was looking at getting into the art of breeding a racehorse, having researched for the best part of 6 months now we was wondering how we dipped our feet into the ocean and found ourselves some unraced thoroughbred mares?

I assume those with good lines will be kept within the contacts of the very famous and lucrative owner breeders although it’s very hard for us to trace down on Weatherbys the whereabouts of some unraced mares for contact?

Any information or help will be graciously appreciated.
 
Rather than buying an unraced mare, you might be better off looking for an older mare with proven bloodlines. Lots of racing buyers look for 'fashionable' lines that can change from year to year. A mare with black type is likely your best bet to make a profit.
 
Proven Black Type mares outside the top breeding operations in the world rarely supply offspring that can duplicate one another, you tend to find that if you're lucky then a wonderful animal may be produce but he/she are rarely ever bettered and it's a very costly operation to try.

We are specifically looking for unraced thoroughbred mares who we believe are the difference between producing excellent racehorses given there is no luxury of being able to pump a black type mare with quallity stallions each year.
 
I don't really understand your way of thought on this.
Although I am not adverse to buying progeny from an unraced mare if the pedigree is right, I would never breed from one myself. Mostly because if the pedigree was right there would be no way I could afford the mare in the forst place, but also because mares with pedigree and race record are easy to come by.
Look at Denman's sister that went through Chelt a couple of years ago - there was a good reason that never made the track and it made 100's of K's. I wouldn't touch one of her offspring with a bargepole.
Winning mares are cheap at the moment, I brought one myself last month with a good pedigree for £400.
I seriously think you need advice from someone experienced in the industry.
If you are set on unraced mares with good pedigrees then look out for the Darley consignments at Doncaster, but they will cost you and they are unsound for a reason.
 
Why does an unraced mare have to be unsound and therefore unlikely to be worth it as a broodie? Equally, why does she have to be a winner, if she has raced?

Just few names off the top of my head
Santa Linda, the dam of Multiple Gr.1 winner Squeak, was unraced.
Temple Street, the dam of sharp 2yo Langs Lash, who won the Queen Mary (Gr.2) at Royal Ascot, was unraced.
Mailboat, dam of Gr.1 Moyglare Stud Stakes winner Mail The Desert, was unraced.
Our Queen of Kings, dam of Spinning Queen (who sold for 3,000,000Gns at Tatts when she retired) was unraced.
Mrs Marsh, dam of the wonderful (if crooked) Canford Cliffs, is (I think) unraced.

The dam of dual Gr.1. King's Stand winner, Equiano, was placed once, from only 3 starts at 3 and 4yrs.
The dam of the amazing Starine was unplaced - mind you, Starine completely out ran her pedigree!
Right Word, dam of Graded winners E Dubai and Ascuteny (dam of Raven's Pass) and dam of Words Of War (grandam of Rainbow View), was only placed.
 
Just from this year alone here are some Group winners without a dam whose raced on the course;

Workforce
Census
Canford Cliffs
Excelebration
Pour Moi
Hoof It
Strong Suit
Vita Nova
Blue Bunting

The list goes on...

But I haven't got the time of day to keep posting so just to let you know there is more to this than meets the eye, maybe some of you are living in past methods or unsure how to take your breeding to the next level?.

There are people out there who are definatly on top of this and I believe if you've got a family that's approaching their peak it's wise to hold back a mare to continue the pedigree into another generation.
 
You're best placed to a) scour the catalogues for the breeding stock sales (GOFFS, Tatts and Arqana), b) use a good bloodstock agent, one with contacts with big studs! And c) some studs/breeders have websites use social networking sites etc and it's sometimes possible to find out about the broodmare herds that way and then make contact yourself if you find something that sparks your interest.
 
Sportznight said:
Why does an unraced mare have to be unsound and therefore unlikely to be worth it as a broodie? Equally, why does she have to be a winner, if she has raced?
Click to expand...

I only said the Darley chuck outs were unsound, and it is generally because they are crooked, therefore a gamble to breed from. She doesn't have to be a winner, but it helps commercially.
OP - What you are saying is no new thing, it has been a train of thought for as long as people have been breeding. The mares you are talking about are hard to come by, and expensive.
Seeing as you're talking examples, what about a mare like this - http://www.racingpost.com/horses/ho...=horse_race_record&bottomHorseTabs=horse_form
 
Are you going the flat or NH route? and have you an idea of the stallions you want to cover with? if you have an idea of potential sires then perhaps looking at mares you feel will complement the sire would be a good idea. Given how poor the market is there are alot of mares not covered and being sold off. Contact some of the studs in your area and put the word out of what you are looking for.are you breeding to keep or to sell as foals...if to sell then you are going to want a more high profile line and current fashionable sires. If to keep then you can afford to be a bit more obscure.
 
Luke7 said:
Just from this year alone here are some Group winners without a dam whose raced on the course;

Workforce
Census
Canford Cliffs
Excelebration
Pour Moi
Hoof It
Strong Suit
Vita Nova
Blue Bunting

The list goes on...
Click to expand...

As your research skills seem to be good, why not research the dams of those horses, which you've listed above, and see if they went through the sales, and see what sort of prices they achieved?

Some may well have been retained by their original breeders, but some may also have been sold. I couldn't say for certain, but I suspect that the dams of the horses which you've listed were already highly regarded, before they produced your list.

Alec.
 
Luke7 said:
Proven Black Type mares outside the top breeding operations in the world rarely supply offspring that can duplicate one another, you tend to find that if you're lucky then a wonderful animal may be produce but he/she are rarely ever bettered and it's a very costly operation to try.
Click to expand...

Surely there's only a handful of real 'blue hens' in the world anyway? But you never know. That's racing :)

But as Alec points out, those dams were pretty high value. I only looked up Blue Bunting's dam, but she sold for 55,000 guineas and has plenty of black-type producers in her distaff line. Workforce's dam is from a super-high-powered dam line (http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/newsmore.html?Id=17314).
 
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The biggest breeding operations in the world invest millions in trading and gambling on good mare lines, they don't get all that many good foals, and the market is flooded with an excess of youngsters.
To be honest, if you want to make money in a business which you are not familiar with, you need an awful lot of cash and a lot more luck.
Nowadays it is a science based industry, a few people enjoy breeding as a hobby, but to have one mare is a massive gamble.
 
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MrsD123 said:
The biggest breeding operations in the world invest millions in trading and gambling on good mare lines, they don't get all that many good foals, and the market is flooded with an excess of youngsters.
To be honest, if you want to make money in a business which you are not familiar with, you need an awful lot of cash and a lot more luck.
Nowadays it is a science based industry, a few people enjoy breeding as a hobby, but to have one mare is a massive gamble.
Click to expand...

I don't think the breeding makes that much difference any more. You'd be better off not spending your money on expensive bloodlines that are no more successful than each other. The management and training are key, masses of room for improvement here, if you think outside the box.
 
Pale Rider said:
I don't think the breeding makes that much difference any more.
Click to expand...
If that were the case trainers would not spend thousands trying to get black type
ie win or placed in Group races:
"Black-type
Horses finishing first, second and third in a black-type stakes will qualify for bold (black) type in a pedigree. If a horse's name appears in bold-face type and in all capital letters, it has won at least one black-type event. If it appears in bold-face type and upper and lower case letters, it ran second or third in at least one black-type event."
 
MrsD123 said:
If that were the case trainers would not spend thousands trying to get black type
ie win or placed in Group races:
"Black-type
Horses finishing first, second and third in a black-type stakes will qualify for bold (black) type in a pedigree. If a horse's name appears in bold-face type and in all capital letters, it has won at least one black-type event. If it appears in bold-face type and upper and lower case letters, it ran second or third in at least one black-type event."
Click to expand...

And Listed races :)

And of course stud fees are not governed by the amount of top level success of a stallion's progeny - look at how Danehill Dancer's and Dansili's (amongst others) stud fees have rocketed in recent years, all in line with success on the race course.
 
Pale Rider said:
I don't think the breeding makes that much difference any more. You'd be better off not spending your money on expensive bloodlines that are no more successful than each other. The management and training are key, masses of room for improvement here, if you think outside the box.
Click to expand...

Breeding makes a lot of differance if you're breeding to sell, especially at the youngstock sales. Breeding to keep and train is another story. Then again, good, proven bloodline will help if the horse ever has to be sold.
 
I think racehorse breeding is a bit like oil exploration.

People know that you can make a hell of a lot of money if you strike it lucky, but they have to invest a hell of a lot of money to increase those chances of being lucky.

And you can guarantee that with that level of investment floating around, and the engagement of the interests of some of the richest people in the world, most of the methods and formulas have been tried and the sources tapped.

An amateur breeder might get a wild-cat well in their garden, but the odds are falling :)
 
I agree that a mare doesn't have to be proven on the racecourse to produce good stock, but I do believe that bloodlines are everything, and damlines in particular.

Take Urban Sea. Yes, she was an Arc winner, but she produced 9 (count them) black type performers and her last foal has just won on its first outing. And HER dam was Allegretta, dam of King's Best which won the Dewhurst and the 2000 Guineas before pulling up lame in the Irish Derby - he's the sire of Workforce, winner of the fastest Derby in history and last year's Arc.

Breeders like the Aga Khan and Khalid Abdulla have spent their lives on their breeding operations and the fruits of their phenomenal mare herds speak for themselves.

If the mare has a decent pedigree (specifically on the dam's side) and is correct in conformation, she's got every chance of producing something to do the job. However, if I were buying to breed, I think I'd look for something which had already produced winners (even if only in a small way). As another poster has commented, dams of winners can be very cheap at the moment.

And can I add Kauto Relka, dam of Kauto Star and Kauto Stone to the unraced dams list? That's a record that speaks for itself.
 
The other thing to look out for which is very important is the fertility on the dams side. Also how sound the stock is, as in how many foals of racing age have been on the track. You do not want to buy a mare from a non fertile family as this is where problems start. I'd also look at 1st and 2nd season sires, people are still taking a gamble on buying the stock even though it's not hit the track. If you are breeding to sell you have to be fashionable. I'd be looking at pinhooking foals out of choice rather than buying mares and breeding my own. Less risk involved and a quicker turnover of money. At least you'd got the HIT and December Sales coming up soon so you will have plenty to choose from!
 
Another thing - it is also proven that the first offspring from a mare are those most likely to be successful on the track (esp 1st 2 foals).
I would prefer to pinhook than breed my own at this point as I feel that is where there is a greater opportunity for success from a relatively small financial investment. I bought a yearling NH colt and sold him as a 4yo a couple of years ago for a reasonable return on investment (>15 times wha it cost to buy and produce him for the sales) as his full sister won on the track and in a pt to point in the meantime. Not enough to make me rich but enough to wipe out my student loans! I have a real interest in bloodstock and ideally would like to be in the position to pinhook 4-5 flatbred foals each year.

ETA - Id want 4-5 as I think there would be a greater chance of turning a profit (however small) when you have a bit of wiggle room to absorb a potential loss from one.
 
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Danedream who just won the Arc in a record time.

E9,000 2yo; Fifth foal; half-sister to 2 winners inc 6f (at 2)-1m4f winner Valdan; dam unraced, half-sister to winners inc Dancing Rose (multiple 1m, dam of 6f Listed winner Roseanna), out of 1m5f winning daughter of French Leger winner Lady Berry.
 
I am not sure what your point is? there are good bloodlines, not some TB bought at a local sales in the faint hope that it might one day "win the arc".
We bought a well tried four year old who had been bred to win the English Derby and had been raced all over Europe, never won a race under rules, and ended up with us to run in flapping races, she soon won several times, and would have bred a decent type, but she had lost her owners a fortune, her price as a yearling was £240,000 and we bought her for £700.
If we had bred from her we would not have got back that £240, 000, more like the £700!
 
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amh mentions urban sea, she is dam of sea the stars, by cape cross, winner of 6 group 1 races as a 3 year old, including the english derby and the prix de la l'arc de triomphe, i saw him last week in ireland, he is an outstanding individual in the flesh, big but with plenty of bone, and half brother to galileo by sadlers wells.

my overall impression is that the mares who have performed moderately well are the best affordable 'gamble' however i don't see why an unproven mare might not do something with good breeding AND outstanding conformation, i would take a risk maybe, but then financing a really good sire for such a mare is another big gamble
 
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