Unrealistic pricing - horses for sale

[SatansLittleHelper]

A horse that suits you perfectly is always a bargain whatever the price

This, in spades 👌👌👌

 

[sport horse]

It is not possible to breed any horse - I really do mean ANY horse, rear it to 4 years old, back and break it, school it and make it safe for an inexperienced/less ambitious rider for £4000.

Just add up the cost of keeping a mare in foal (grass livery for a cob at say £20/week is £1000 plus farrier & vet) Keep of mare & foal for 6 months (another £500 plus if you can keep it at grass for the same cost as just the mare) then 4 years of keeping the youngster (another £1000pa = £4000) back and break at £25/day for one month (£750) School on to go nicely, hack out, load, be shod etc etc @ say £100pw (another £5200). So far I have reached £11,250!!! I have not allowed fo the initial cost of any mare, any stud fees, any vet bill, any winter feed for the grass kept mare & youngster.

The only option for those wanting to breed is to go for the top sport horse in the hope of breeding something tha will sell for something approaching the cost.

 

[spacefaer]

More years ago than I like to admit, I thought I'd have a bit of fun producing 15.2-16hh Welsh part breds (sec D x TBs). I was in my late teens/early 20s and loved the stamp, the jump and thought they were fun for teenagers aiming for PC teams or a bit of BE.

I produced 3 and gave up on the idea - the kids that could ride them couldn't afford them, the parents that could afford them had children with no talent.......
They were priced 4.5-6k in the early 90s and would probably be about the same money now!

 

[hollyandivy123]

I’m trying to understand what you mean (but failing I think!)..

So you don’t mean a typical mother daughter share, but more something that looks like a Ferrari, to be sold to someone with a Ferrari budget, but with Ford Fiesta riding ability?

Those are a very tough market to produce for.

Given you have mentioned Burghley, and given I have a reasonable feel for the event market here is how it goes ....

Raw material a little bit more - say 6-10k.
Production of an event horse circa 12k a year at lower levels, maybe 20k ish when running advanced.

Eventers in general is a numbers game. Start with 10 lower priced 4yo’s and maybe 1 is top, 2 advanced, 2 intermediate, 2 novice and 3 not worth putting a point on.

Then if you are going to sell the above the price that can be achieved is driven by one of 2 things - either how much potential they are showing for upper levels OR how easy they would be for a true amateur to ride at a lower level. If they have both you are laughing.

The problem is a large proportion of these horses are never suitable for the amateur market (but are sold to them anyway).

The production of these horses for upper level is actually quite different to the production for amateur sale - so you kind of need to cherry pick the non-4/5* horses at the beginning.

Then when you get to the point of sale and you are wanting to sell this produced event horse to an amateur who is understandability spending what appears to be a hell of a lot of money on paper, they then want the excellent record, the squeaky clean xrays as well as a temperament that will accommodate nerves, being missed at a big fence, etc. Etc.

So assuming all the above is there that 2 year produced novice horse will have cost in the region of 30-35k, a 3 year produced intermediate horse 45k ish.

The gamble is high. The market is extremely limited.

I vote buy cheap & young and learn to do the work yourself!

i think my Burghley comment put a side track on the quote, sorry for not being clearer about the type of "mother/daughter" share, but your analogy of " but more something that looks like a Ferrari, to be sold to someone with a Ferrari budget, but with Ford Fiesta riding ability" is close i wasn't thinking of a Ferrari more of a 125 motorbike which looked like a 700 ducati!

i do understand the cost and time which goes into production for the high end, the risks etc, which is why i watch and admire from the side lines, cheaper that way.

i still feel with the changes in the UK/world there is a market there for a "125 ducati", yes it is tough but also looking what is happening over the last few years and with a crystal ball into the future things are changing and i think the horse industry has to change with it.

over breeding has not helped and has kept the horse market price deflated/not realistic at the lower and middle end, which consequently has a knock-on effect on what someone will pay for something higher up in the market.

i bought a horse recently to replace one after about 20 yrs, the cost was similar with 2 decades gap between for the same stamp horse.

ironically i'm a buy it cheap/young get it going but i am very very bad at is the selling part and they seem to stay with me

but as everyone is saying a horse is only worth what you are willing to pay, for some people it will seem a bargain for others it will seem expensive, but if it fits with you its worth it.

 

[gunnergundog]

" but more something that looks like a Ferrari, to be sold to someone with a Ferrari budget, but with Ford Fiesta riding ability" is close i wasn't thinking of a Ferrari more of a 125 motorbike which looked like a 700 ducati!

The problem with that is that if it looks like a ferrari, it will have the ferrari conformation and therefore the ferrari movement and athleticism......this is NOT what the ford fiesta brigade can wagon. Also, it doesn't take into account the brain/attitude that comes with the ferrari.

Sorry, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree......or at least to a VERY VERY limited clientele, such that it is unlikely to be of interest as a commercial proposition to anyone.....just my view though.

 

[JFTDWS]

So what would you pay for example for a rock solid gypsy coloured cob who was grat on roads in all traffic, very well schooled to elementary level dressage and competing successfully at BD regionals etc ?

Me? Nothing. I don't want hair, I don't want a dressage cob, I don't want another horse full stop I'm not the target market for that kind of horse.

However, I would expect a decent, nicely put together cob which is well trained (not all horses competing at ele are remotely correct imo) and has a competition record to fetch a good sum. Exactly how big that sum would be dependent on the intangible factors - rideability, attractiveness etc.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

So what would you pay for example for a rock solid gypsy coloured cob who was grat on roads in all traffic, very well schooled to elementary level dressage and competing successfully at BD regionals etc ?

Throw in 'weight carrier' to the advert and I'd say minimum £6k.

 

[skint1]

I would agree that a horse that suits you is worth the price whatever that may be. I would never look at a horse above a price for which I did not have money in the bank, and if it were above £3000 I would be getting some kind of vetting done, and if the vetting was inconclusive, I would be open to negotiating on the price. I am not very good at viewing horses, I think I don't come across as interested, because I am trying to be noncommital and I don't ask the right questions in the right way. My budget is more than £3000, it gets bigger every month that goes by that I don't find a horse, but I want that unicorn of horses- the weight carrier, sane, safe, relatively sound, happy hacker. Doesn't have to be a world beater in any way, just a nice, kind person who doesn't mind a bit of spoiling and not to serious a job.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

i think my Burghley comment put a side track on the quote, sorry for not being clearer about the type of "mother/daughter" share, but your analogy of " but more something that looks like a Ferrari, to be sold to someone with a Ferrari budget, but with Ford Fiesta riding ability" is close i wasn't thinking of a Ferrari more of a 125 motorbike which looked like a 700 ducati!

#pedant mode....
Ducati dont and haven't had a 700, sorry.
600 carbie, 620, 695 and 696 perhaps (696 stopped around 2015) or onwards to the M750 and 750ss way back before the turn of this century to about 2002, etc

Sorry, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree......or at least to a VERY VERY limited clientele, such that it is unlikely to be of interest as a commercial proposition to anyone.....just my view though.

Agreed.
Ducati would agree too, hence why their current smallest engined bike is the 796 and it's not of any commercial interest for them to make any smaller engined bikes. The V4 is selling v well, there isn't a need to have entry level bikes.
#anorakTFF

Ok, as you were....😂

 

[DabDab]

😂 oh TFF!

 

[hollyandivy123]

TFF not a problem, other than a Harley or a Vespa you could put any other bike in front of me and all I could say it’s a bike.

I just remember back in the days when I was around 18- 19, all the lads trying to get bikes that looked more powerful than they were....they did sound like a pack of hair driers.....😃

 

[BMWKIPP]

So few people can actually ride....

I both agree and disagree with this statement, I know many people who can really ride as we all grew up together and we all still ride, but also there are many on yards with nice horses that just can't ride them

 

[maya2008]

Skint1 - it will cost us £6k easily to get our sweet, kind weight carrier from backing to 6yo (incl purchase price at 3), to the point where he could take anyone without blinking, to do anything at rc level. And that is just the cost of keep, not including the hours spent educating him, arena hire, show costs, transport costs....

 

[skint1]

Skint1 - it will cost us £6k easily to get our sweet, kind weight carrier from backing to 6yo (incl purchase price at 3), to the point where he could take anyone without blinking, to do anything at rc level. And that is just the cost of keep, not including the hours spent educating him, arena hire, show costs, transport costs....

I would pay more than £6k for him when he was at that stage too see i am even coming across wrong on here!

 

[lme]

I do think there’s a market for ‘bred to be a Ferrari but happy to look after a Fiesta driver’. We own one. She was 7k as a 5yo when a SJ stud was selling off all their young horses and she’s never been asked to be a serious competition horse as that’s not what we need. No idea what she’s worth now and I haven’t added up the amount spent on training for her as I suspect it would be scary. It’s irrelevant anyway as to us she is priceless.

 

[SO1]

I think what is happening is our attitude towards older horses is changing. When I was looking for a horse 12 years ago anything over 10 was a bit risky as you thought you might not get that many years before retirement or slowing down. There are a lot more older horse out there now competing especially in the amateur scene.

Now if a horse has got 14 and not had any problems it is probably a tough sound horse and with careful management may well be still a useful riding horse at 24.

I also think life has got more pressured and busy and for a lot of people after a hard day at work they just want to get on their horse and have an easy ride, and go out and compete without any issues and possibly willing to pay for schoolmaster type in its teens so they can do that and don't have to spend time training the horse up the levels or pay the premium for a 10 year old. I can see that people working full time and with a family might not have masses of free time to spend bringing on a young horse and might prefer something older and more reliable even if there is a risk it may not be competitive in 5 years time or will not progress from it's current level.

I would agree the market is changing the cost of housing, a university education and general living has gone up and many young people may not be able to afford a horse so you get the older people who may have a had a break from riding and not be so confident or have so much time, or just a bit risk adverse being the main market for horse buying.

I don't think natives or cobs are any more tricky to ride than any other horse, I think what has probably happened is that people who perhaps are less experienced or confident get encouraged to buy them, and someone like that is more likely to find it more challenging to deal with a problem than a more experienced or confident rider. Horses are not robots and even the best trained quiet ones could have a day when something upsets them or they do not feel like doing what we want them to do.

 

[SO1]

What do behaviour do class as ungenuine?

I have a Forester, I know he looks very cute and sweet and he does not always behave that way. People expect due to his size he will be slow but he is not he likes to go out hacking with big horses. I think the main issue with Foresters is that people under estimate their intelligence. I have had my new forest 12 years, I agree he is not 100% reliable but we get on well despite me being a lazy rider with little talents. I have done lots of different things with him and at 17 he is doing surprisingly well in the veteran classes. From what I have heard lots of new forests are still really active in their late 20's so I am hoping to be still riding him in 10 years time. I do feel lucky to have him. I paid £3150 for him as a 5 year old, that was 12 years ago, he was late backed as he had spent a couple of years as a stallion running on the forest. I expect people think that is expensive but if I am still riding him in 10 years time when he is 27 I will have considered that a bargain price.

I defo am in opposite camp. I live in the NF so have met lots of foresters and wouldn't have one myself. Many of them tend to have an ungenuine streak and whilst connies can be sharp I've never come across a nasty one.

 

[MagicMelon]

- ones that *should* be a good eventer, jumper etc but haven’t got any comp record of any note but priced as if they are ‘that’ horse.

This in particular has been driving me mad lately. I've just seen another one yesterday - a dressage pony (with a decent record) but selling as "potential FEI event pony" yet it makes absolutely no mention of this pony jumping, even at home let alone any competition record. It annoys me that some people seem to think eventing is easy so any horse could convert to it no problem. Always seems to be dressage ones who are "bored" so eventing is the way forward despite the fact they've only done a few trotting poles and never seen a XC fence. Well I guess then with my horse that I event, she's brilliant at the jumping bits but crud at the dressage but hey I guess now I should advertise her as "potential top level dressage"...

 

[FlyingCircus]

What do behaviour do class as ungenuine?

I have a Forester, I know he looks very cute and sweet and he does not always behave that way. People expect due to his size he will be slow but he is not he likes to go out hacking with big horses. I think the main issue with Foresters is that people under estimate their intelligence. I have had my new forest 12 years, I agree he is not 100% reliable but we get on well despite me being a lazy rider with little talents. I have done lots of different things with him and at 17 he is doing surprisingly well in the veteran classes. From what I have heard lots of new forests are still really active in their late 20's so I am hoping to be still riding him in 10 years time. I do feel lucky to have him. I paid £3150 for him as a 5 year old, that was 12 years ago, he was late backed as he had spent a couple of years as a stallion running on the forest. I expect people think that is expensive but if I am still riding him in 10 years time when he is 27 I will have considered that a bargain price.

A slight tangent, but I find a horse to not be genuine if they have a tendency to do things such as bite/kick unprovoked. Or generally take the pee and spook at nothing, throw in dirty stops, buck, drop shoulder to lose their rider etc.

Some of these things for sure can be a training issue, but I've always wondered if NF that have run on the forest have a bit of something about them that is different from a typical domestic horse that is used to being more reliant on humans.

 

[spacefaer]

When I had a full time office job, I bought myself a bit of fun.
He was a 13 yr old 16.1hh Advanced eventer, grade B showjumper who worked at Adv Med. We did some BD, some Open 100s - it was all he was up to soundness-wise and all I had time and money for. He cost me 5k and was worth every penny.

 

[maya2008]

I've always wondered if NF that have run on the forest have a bit of something about them that is different from a typical domestic horse that is used to being more reliant on humans.

I have had both sides of that. Our NF who ran on the Forest was wily with a serious sense of humour, but also intensely loyal. She bit and kicked, bucked and dumped riders for England as a youngster and was intensely spooky. But when she bonded, it was strong and she never actually hurt anyone. She did her back in badly once, twisting in mid-air so she wouldn’t land on me when she tripped and fell out competing. She helped a little boy with dyspraxia ride - on her, he could do anything any other child could. She taught many children to ride in her time, including my son - he was five, and she was 13.2hh but he could hack her off the lead rein and be completely safe. The memory I will never forget though - is her chasing off a fox that had arrived in the field where my young children were. All of a sudden, there were two horses flanking the buggy and she was racing towards the fox, ears back, teeth out. Like I said, loyal. We lost her this year and she has left an enormous hole in our lives.

We now have a stud bred NF. None of the spookiness, sweet and kind and adores children. Went to her first show and didn’t bat an eyelid. Clever, and she does remind me of her predecessor, but much more relaxed. I used to joke with our forest bred mare that you could send anyone out on her knowing she would come back in one piece - the new one is sweet but I would trust my judgement over hers!

 

[be positive]

A slight tangent, but I find a horse to not be genuine if they have a tendency to do things such as bite/kick unprovoked. Or generally take the pee and spook at nothing, throw in dirty stops, buck, drop shoulder to lose their rider etc.

Some of these things for sure can be a training issue, but I've always wondered if NF that have run on the forest have a bit of something about them that is different from a typical domestic horse that is used to being more reliant on humans.

None of the NF's I have had would do any of the above, certainly not biting or kicking ever, provoked or not, ridden they have all been extremely genuine jumping although most were started here even if already backed, one was on the sharp side of cheeky and could take the pee but he was established when I bought him and had a bit of a tough time in his previous home, they are bright ponies that really enjoy a job and most would be bored in a home where hacking was the main job but I would still have expected them to behave in a mannerly way, they have been a mix of stud and forest bred.

 

[honetpot]

I used to buy cheap youngsters as a hobby, one at time.
Bought in winter when no one wants them. I keep them till they are broken, then sell.
I always make money on the selling price, sometimes quite a lot but overall I will have made a loss.
Farrier, wormers,vaccinations, fodder then there is all their education on top.
If I was looking to make money I would look to buy a green horse from a novice home that hasn’t killed them

 

[honetpot]

None of the NF's I have had would do any of the above, certainly not biting or kicking ever, provoked or not, ridden they have all been extremely genuine jumping although most were started here even if already backed, one was on the sharp side of cheeky and could take the pee but he was established when I bought him and had a bit of a tough time in his previous home, they are bright ponies that really enjoy a job and most would be bored in a home where hacking was the main job but I would still have expected them to behave in a mannerly way, they have been a mix of stud and forest bred.

I have only ever had one NF, forest bred and pony of a life time. Bought her just backed for me to school for my eight year old daughter. She was so clever, had very boxy feet and both my daughter’s did PC and showing. She certainly knew danger and hated dogs off the lead with a passion and would walk through hedges.She ruled our herd with a flick of an ear and literally every horse or pony loved her.
I think some NF are really instinctive. She kicked me once, I hope by mistake and got chased round the field for 10 minutes. We were pals.

 

[sywell]

I think as riders get more incompetent, and more and more need a horse that will look after them and take them to win rosettes, or at least safely trot them round the block facing all that todays world can throw at it, the only way prices can go it up.
So few people now seem to want to cope with any even quite normal 'quirks'.

I think there are many people who think riding is sitting on a horse when it moves and never understand the work that goes into a decent eventer or dressage horse. I think people who are involved with competition riding and breeding competition horses dispair at the bad riding of people who come to buy the horse for sale.

 

[SO1]

Mine is a bit like your first one, but now he is 17 is a bit steadier. Wily is exactly how I would describe him. However I had a similar incident to you where I was cantering in a field with friends - I was at the front as he had got a bit excited cantering at the back and can throw in buck when excited, and he lost his footing and fell. I had two friends on horses behind me and they saw what happened, and said he would have fallen on top of me but he had deliberately managed to move himself so avoided that happening. When I do fall off which happens mostly when he gets excited and throws in a buck he does just stand there looking a bit embarrassed, he has never run off as yet.

He is irreplaceable to me despite some of his antics. He is a very expressive communicative pony and you can tell if he is sad, happy, cross, not feeling well, excited, doesn't want to do anything.

Back to the original topic a friend of mine managed to get two older competition horses at a reduced price that she would never have been able to afford if they were younger. Both horses have been very good horses for her having been schooled by professionals and more than capable of doing what she wanted and she has never fallen off them. She has now says she would always go for an older horse with experience now rather than buy a youngster, despite being a very good confident rider.

I have had both sides of that. Our NF who ran on the Forest was wily with a serious sense of humour, but also intensely loyal. She bit and kicked, bucked and dumped riders for England as a youngster and was intensely spooky. But when she bonded, it was strong and she never actually hurt anyone. She did her back in badly once, twisting in mid-air so she wouldn’t land on me when she tripped and fell out competing. She helped a little boy with dyspraxia ride - on her, he could do anything any other child could. She taught many children to ride in her time, including my son - he was five, and she was 13.2hh but he could hack her off the lead rein and be completely safe. The memory I will never forget though - is her chasing off a fox that had arrived in the field where my young children were. All of a sudden, there were two horses flanking the buggy and she was racing towards the fox, ears back, teeth out. Like I said, loyal. We lost her this year and she has left an enormous hole in our lives.

We now have a stud bred NF. None of the spookiness, sweet and kind and adores children. Went to her first show and didn’t bat an eyelid. Clever, and she does remind me of her predecessor, but much more relaxed. I used to joke with our forest bred mare that you could send anyone out on her knowing she would come back in one piece - the new one is sweet but I would trust my judgement over hers!

 

[ShadowHunter]

If you look at it in terms 'making a profit', we would all be buying horses priced in the five figures. Though most horses are valued on behaviour, breeding, potential and previous successes; rather than how much it cost to raise, so the value is less, generally. Personally, buying a super expensive horse would worry me. What if it goes in the field the day after it comes home and breaks a leg, a risk for any horse but you catch my drift.

 

[skint1]

I would agree with ShadowHunter, how gutting would it be to throw big money at a horse and have it do itself a mischeif in the field!

I also wanted to address the point about people not being able to ride well these days and people wanting a horse to look after them. I think this is probably true and there's a lot of reasons for it, but horses like that can't be made unless someone looks after them first and gives them that self confidence and that is worth paying for. I can't say I am a great rider, I lack confidence and sometimes my aids can be a bit muzzy but I think I am realistic, I don't expect any horse to be a dead headed dobbin at all but I want to stand a chance of surviving so I'd like to avoid a horse that had big/extreme reactions to things that worried it because it would be a bad match, I would be no help to that horse.