Unresponsive to the leg and whip

NiftDisy

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So I’ve recently bought a horse, a 16.2hh 16yo ISH gelding. I bought him on the 1st September after speaking to many of his previous owners who all said he was a fantastic all rounder and that he has done showjumping, XC, endurance and hunted in Ireland as a youngster.

When I went to view him the viewing went pretty badly.. his owner was flapping her legs and arms and thrashing him with a dressage stick in an effort to get him going forwards.. none of which was working. She had very harsh hands and was pulling back hard the whole the time. According to her this is as how she rode him all the time! Tbh he was a bit of a sympathy buy and I got him for pennies as I just couldn’t stand to leave him there in that home.

I gave him the first month off as a rest to settle in before starting him off with mainly hacking and just a little bit of work in the school and then gradually increasing the amount of time we spent schooling. I like to keep sessions short to help keep him interested and thinking postively, so even now I never do more than half an hour.
The problem is that I really cannot get him moving forwards at all, either under saddle or on the ground. He is completely dead and unresponsive to the leg, whip, spur and voice both out on hacks in the school. I have tried having someone follow/chase me with a lunge whip and this hasn’t worked either
He will walk slowly and with enough chasing/growling/booting he will trot on very slowly too but is behind the leg and needs a lot of constant nagging.
I don’t want to have to nag and keep kicking as this will not help him to become responsive to the leg but I feel I am out of ideas on how else to ask him to move, as he will not respond to anything else I have tried
I really struggle to ride him as my position completely goes to pot every time I sit on him as I try so hard to get him to go. My leg comes right back and swings around, I hunch forwards and end up flapping around in the saddle. I try really hard to make sure I’m not pulling on his mouth and restricting him so I just end up riding him with washing like reins every time

I have been told by every previous owner that he absolutely loves to jump and has done alot of it and so I have been considering trying him over a couple of small jumps to see if this will perk him up a bit. Unfortunately I am not a jumper at all and don’t enjoy it at all after several bad falls a couple years ago, but may try give it a go for his sake.

If anyone has any suggestions or has had similar experiences with their horse I’d love to hear any tips or advice please!
 

Sossigpoker

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He was seen by a vet when I purchased him, and I was told he was perfectly healthy. I was hoping to book him a physio appointment
This followed by an assessment by a KIND pro rider. Im now saying you're not kind or competent, but if the horse I'd mentally shut down, you need to approach this with extreme gentleness.
But if the issue is your style of riding , then a pro can quickly "expose " that.

My yard owner is a pro rider and one of hers is a now semi-retired 25 yo show jumper. If you don't sit on him correctly, he basically grounds to a halt. But if you know how to sit, he will bring all the moves out of the bag.
 

Sossigpoker

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Just read your bit about your position : Im afraid this may well be you not riding him correctly.
After a thorough vet check, get a gentle but effective pro rider to sit on him and see what happens.
 

splashgirl45

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what are you feeding him, sometimes they can be fed too much and it makes them unwilling to do anything , imagine how you feel with a full stomach, would you want to run? my first instinct would be he is either in pain or shut down. have you tried lunging him over small jumps to see if he perks up with no weight on him.. also lethargy is one of the symptoms of cushings so if vet finds no ;pain i would get a cushings test ..
 

paddy555

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a couple of things you could try firstly to test for cushings. 16yo horse. Maybe it is not that he is dead to your legs etc but that he is lethargic (big symptom of cushings) and much as he would like to go he is just too tired. If that was the case then prascend (the cushings meds) will very likely take him back to his younger self.
Whilst the vet was there doing that blood draw they could also do a general blood test just to rule out anything obvious

If none of that shows anything then if any of his previous owners (the ones who got on well with him) are available invite them over and see if they have any comments or indeed let them ride him.
 

NiftDisy

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what are you feeding him, sometimes they can be fed too much and it makes them unwilling to do anything , imagine how you feel with a full stomach, would you want to run? my first instinct would be he is either in pain or shut down. have you tried lunging him over small jumps to see if he perks up with no weight on him.. also lethargy is one of the symptoms of cushings so if vet finds no ;pain i would get a cushings test ..

He is currently on adlib hay in group turnout 24/7. For hard feed I have just been giving him a scoop of Alpha A Oil and pony nuts at least 1 hour before we ride
 

NiftDisy

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Just read your bit about your position : Im afraid this may well be you not riding him correctly.
After a thorough vet check, get a gentle but effective pro rider to sit on him and see what happens.

yes I definitely am not a pro rider, I have quite a light seat and am overly careful with my hands but I know that my lack of stability on him is definitely not making it any easier for him

I have had my boss ride him one time and she managed a lot better with her position than I do. She competes advanced medium dressage and had him looking a bit fancier than usual but struggled a lot with keeping him going in the trot
 

Red-1

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I would go back to the vet and have everything checked, as a look before purchase is different to a performance workup.

I have worked with shut down horses though, it is a slow process to let them re-discover the 'win' to help them feel good.

This is a great video to show the reward and doing it step by step, meeting the horse where he is...

 

NiftDisy

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He is a very very sweet and kind horse! We have a great relationship and have really been bonding well. I spend a lot of time with him just grooming and pampering him and gaining his trust
He’s really been coming out of his shell the past couple months
 

oldie48

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Is he forward on a hack? If so, read on. Some years ago I bought a dressage schoolmaster (most expensive horse I've ever bought for myself!). He was very behind the leg in the school, I could get him to trot and canter but he was really hard work, he was great to hack though so I thought he was just school sour. Interestingly, when ridden by a strong pro rider he turned himself inside out. This was a horse that had taken a very well known para rider to her first international competitions with very good results!. I kept him for five years and gradually given a more varied life he did improve but he was never properly forward. he'd warm up nicely for a test then drop behind my leg as soon as the bell went. The only time he was really forward in a school was when I took him to a BD camp at Somerford, their haylage blew his mind but he was just amazing once I'd managed to get on him! He was perfectly fit and sound but he just didn't want to school, he was telling me he'd had enough and that it was nothing to do with my riding. I sold him as a very safe hack and his new owner adored him, it was a match made in heaven, she even did the odd RC dressage comp at a low level and did quite well as he had lovely paces. She had him nearly three years when sadly he broke a leg in a field accident. I don't know if your gelding is like this but if he is, don't spend five years trying to change him, just find him a lovely hacking home!
 

NiftDisy

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Is he forward on a hack? If so, read on. Some years ago I bought a dressage schoolmaster (most expensive horse I've ever bought for myself!). He was very behind the leg in the school, I could get him to trot and canter but he was really hard work, he was great to hack though so I thought he was just school sour. Interestingly, when ridden by a strong pro rider he turned himself inside out. This was a horse that had taken a very well known para rider to her first international competitions with very good results!. I kept him for five years and gradually given a more varied life he did improve but he was never properly forward. he'd warm up nicely for a test then drop behind my leg as soon as the bell went. The only time he was really forward in a school was when I took him to a BD camp at Somerford, their haylage blew his mind but he was just amazing once I'd managed to get on him! He was perfectly fit and sound but he just didn't want to school, he was telling me he'd had enough and that it was nothing to do with my riding. I sold him as a very safe hack and his new owner adored him, it was a match made in heaven, she even did the odd RC dressage comp at a low level and did quite well as he had lovely paces. She had him nearly three years when sadly he broke a leg in a field accident. I don't know if your gelding is like this but if he is, don't spend five years trying to change him, just find him a lovely hacking home!

On a hack he is usually behind the leg and slow on the way out, and then of course speeds up on the way home! But interestingly, he is a lot more forward to trot out on a hack than he is to walk. I have not cantered him on a hack yet as by the time he became fit enough we’ve had constant ice.
He can become quite lively on a hack when he wants to and will always jog/prance if he has to split up from other horses on the ride
He seems to perk up and enjoy himself more out on a ride, so this is what I’ve mainly been doing.

To be honest, if he truly dislikes schooling and never comes right in the school then I will keep him as a happy hacker/pet. He’s a lovely boy and I would hate to see him passed around or to end up somewhere he’d be forced or mistreated.
 

NiftDisy

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That was going to be my next question.

edt, already answered.

He doesn’t look chunky to me. Just an unfit horse with a hay belly.

Is he stabled at all?

He is not stabled, I keep him out in a group of 5 other horses 24/7 - rugged in bad weather. He is pretty high in the pecking order so he gets plenty of hay every day
 

AmyMay

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He is not stabled, I keep him out in a group of 5 other horses 24/7 - rugged in bad weather. He is pretty high in the pecking order so he gets plenty of hay every day

If you have the option to stable him overnight it might be interesting to see if it makes any difference. Obviously with dark nights it might be something you only want to do on a Friday and Saturday, riding in the morning. But some horses out 24/7 stuffing themselves with hay can be very stuffy when asked to work.
 

NiftDisy

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If you have the option to stable him overnight it might be interesting to see if it makes any difference. Obviously with dark nights it might be something you only want to do on a Friday and Saturday, riding in the morning. But some horses out 24/7 stuffing themselves with hay can be very stuffy when asked to work.

I might just give that a try, thanks. He is always the first one at the bale every day and often pushes the others off it so I’m sure he’s probably stuffing his face all night
 

moosea

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So the vet is your first stop.
Vet out to check him over.
If he was mine I'd be discussing the possibility of a bute trial later on.
Does he work ok on the lunge? With tack on and tack off?
If I had looked at tack and pain then I'd start to change his feed for a higher energy food, and look to put him on a fittening/ schooling plan.
Don't forget you can school him to work more correctly on a hack and that will help him in the school.
I'd be looking to really get him trained to voice aids - no hitting or kicking and can be done with ground work with food bribes to start with.

I hope you don't take offence at this, but from the pic you posted he seems very 'fronty.' - well muscled up front , lacking hind end muscle. Probably because he is on the forehand a lot. Again, this is a guess from one still picture!
 

NiftDisy

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He is a very very sweet and kind horse! We have a great relationship and have really been bonding well. I spend a lot of time with him just grooming and pampering him and gaining his trust
He’s really been coming out of his shell the past couple months

He’s an extremely friendly guy and is more like a big dog than a horse. Always the first one to the gate every morning and follows you around the food while you poo pick etc.
 

ycbm

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He is a bit on the chunky side - from what I’ve been told he has always been quite a good doer

Was he five stage vetted? I'm not sure from your post about him having been "seen by your vet", that sounds like it could just have been for a strangles blood sample or something, and a quick look for signs of disease.

If he wasn't actually vetted (and I would not vet a horse of his purchase price) then, bearing in mind that the photo could just be a coincidental moment in time, he looks to me as if he is attempting not to put weight into his front heels.

I would not be surprised, if the photo is representative of how he stands normally, if you blocked one front foot and he showed up lame on the other.

It would explain his reluctance to move.

Is he shod? If so, I do like him and you have a good chance of ending up with a nice horse if you get the shoes off.
.
 
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NiftDisy

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Was he five stage vetted? I'm not sure from your post about him having been "seen by your vet", that sounds like it could just have been for a strangles blood sample or something, and a quick look for signs of disease.

If he wasn't actually vetted (and I would not vet a horse of his purchase price) then, bearing in mind that the photo could just be a coincidental moment in time, he looks to me as if he is attempting not to put weight into his front heels.

I would not be surprised, if the photo is representative of how he stands normally, if you blocked one front foot if he showed up lame on the other.

It would explain his reluctance to move.

Is he shod? If so, I do like him and you have a good chance of ending up with a nice horse if you get the shoes off.
.

He was not officially vetted when I got him, he had a very coming out to do his flu vacc the same day that I collected him so we managed to do a mini “vetting” with no extra charge. We did a trot up/heart, lungs and eyes checked and had the rest of him examined at rest and the vet found nothing they were concerned about.
He usually stands ‘normally’ on his feet and not like in the picture.. he is shod but he does not have great feet. They had small cracks in them when I got him but nothing major, so I have him on biotin daily and I also put cornucrescine on daily and they’ve improved in the last couple months.

He really is such a kind and generous horse.. I hope we’ll get going eventually
 

NiftDisy

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So the vet is your first stop.
Vet out to check him over.
If he was mine I'd be discussing the possibility of a bute trial later on.
Does he work ok on the lunge? With tack on and tack off?
If I had looked at tack and pain then I'd start to change his feed for a higher energy food, and look to put him on a fittening/ schooling plan.
Don't forget you can school him to work more correctly on a hack and that will help him in the school.
I'd be looking to really get him trained to voice aids - no hitting or kicking and can be done with ground work with food bribes to start with.

I hope you don't take offence at this, but from the pic you posted he seems very 'fronty.' - well muscled up front , lacking hind end muscle. Probably because he is on the forehand a lot. Again, this is a guess from one still picture!

He moves the same on the lunge with and without tack as he does under saddle. He is almost unresponsive to voice cues or any movement from the whip

He had his tack checked by a saddle fitter recently who said everything looked very good - he has a very short back for a horse his size and only takes a 16.5 inch saddle

He definitely does have quite a large forehand compared to his hind! Big shoulders and a high wither. He definitely lacks muscle in his hind and topline

Here you can also see it despite him standing on a hill
 

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