Unshod horse - farrier, barefoot trimmer, or other?

[Sol]

Basically, who looks after your horses feet? (horse not shod)
Curious as presumably most people go from having a horse shod to removing the shoes - at that point do you stay with your farrier? or move onto someone who (presumably) knows unshod feet better as such?
Just curious as at the min, having moved off the livery yard, we have no farrier. Dan's feet were only done 3 times in the 8 months we were there, just trimmed/neatened up so we just used the guy that other liveries regularly used for convenience. He did a nice job as far as I (who admits to knowing nothing about hooves ) could tell and Dan seemed happy which is most important. But I don't have his number & doubt he'd travel to here! So wondering if it's worth swapping to one of these barefoot trimmers or something?

Yes, I am rather clueless about feet... and really ought to learn more. Educate me....

Sol x

 

[spottydottypony]

Ive had a farrier trim my horse feet for the last 8 yrs (hes 9). He has joint problems and is always lame after haveing his feet trimmed. He has just had a bout of laminitis so i am getting a barefoot trimmer to look at his feet just to see if she can do any more than the farriers. My farrier is brilliant though they train for years and know a lot about feet. I just want another opinion on him. I have heared good and bad about barefoot trimmers soi am a little wary see what happens though.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

In a way, it doesn't really matter as long as they are really good at their job and look at the horse as a whole.

If possible, get personal recommendations and look at the hooves of horses that the Trimmer/Farrier looks after. Are they balanced, a good angle with no flairs?

ETA

My farrier is brilliant though they train for years and know a lot about feet.

Is your Farrier a DipWCF or an AWCF? do you feel that he just looks at the sole of the hoof, or does he look at the whole horse?

 

[Sol]

Interesting, thanks for the opinions so far

 

[cptrayes]

Current thread on identical topic:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=470500

 

[Miss L Toe]

In a way, it doesn't really matter as long as they are really good at their job and look at the horse as a whole.

If possible, get personal recommendations and look at the hooves of horses that the Trimmer/Farrier looks after. Are they balanced, a good angle with no flairs?
ETA
Is your Farrier a DipWCF or an AWCF? do you feel that he just looks at the sole of the hoof, or does he look at the whole horse?

I can just feel a lot of people hovering and waiting to pounce on this posting, dear OP, "trimming" is THE most controversial subject on this forum, and the mere mention of the "T " word will bring lots of posters out of the woodwork.
I am going to use the word "farrier" in the general sense to include trimmers.
Registered UK farriers are the only people allowed to shoe a horse.
Legally, anyone can trim their own horse and there are a number of people who do it for a living, known as Trimmers or Barefoot Trimmers.
I will try to be objective:
A horse walks on its feet, which are attached to its legs, if the conformation / action of the leg is not "correct" the farrier will "correct" hoof to compensate, in order to so to do, he needs to have a lot of experience and training.
The registered UK farrier will often use shoes plus his skill and experience to keep your horse sound for all its working life.
Deep breath:
Many horse can be worked without shoes, but it is often easier for people to have their horses shod, in spite of the drawbacks [cost, loss of shoes etc]
As riders we are not experts in all aspects of hoof care, but we can learn about our own horses, if we "look and learn"
The hoof is three dimensional , so the balance is also three dimensional.
Balance: the farrier will usually start on the "long toe", the toe seems to grow quicker, so we need to trim it to level the foot along the "head to tail axis"
Also the the bars of the shoe will be levelled usually with the rasp and / or the knife. this will balance the foot in the other axis.
The angle of the hoof wall to the pastern should be continuous, this is part conformation, part management, part skill of farrier.
It is very very difficult for the average person to know whether the farrier is good or bad, the only thing you can do is to ask locally in saddlery shops or local horse owners.
There are a few poor farriers, and you would be unlucky to find one, but they may be cheaper than others, or not very busy even though they have been working for several years in the area.
Some farriers are not good communicators and some will be offended if you ask them questions, most will be pleased that you are showing an interest and will discuss management, conformation etc.
I apologise in advance for any errors in my posting, I am trying to explain the basics, in order to give some sort of grounding which the OP can use to build on, if she wishes.

 

[AMW]

My farrier trims or shoes my ponies as required. I have used him for about 6 years now, I rate him very highly and value his opinion, advice & expertise.
He has done his training, he knows what hes doing, I trust him.

 

[cptrayes]

A horse walks on its feet, which are attached to its legs, if the conformation / action of the leg is not "correct" the farrier will "correct" hoof to compensate, in order to so to do, he needs to have a lot of experience and training.

Unfortunately, for many horses "correction" of the foot with shoes instead of allowing the horse to grow the foot it knows it needs to match the incorrect conformation of its body will result in a lame horse due to foot strains or arthritis on badly loaded joints higher up the leg. Rockley Farm hunt several horses,which were given to them due to persistent lameness in shoes, who are totally sound, with very oddly shaped feet, without them. Unless you xray on a regular basis you actually have no idea whether your farrier is shoeing balanced to the bones inside the foot or not. See rockleyfarm.blogspot.com for examples.

The registered UK farrier will often use shoes plus his skill and experience to keep your horse sound for all its working life.

I'm sure you didn't mean it to, but this reads as though you think most horses would be unsound if they were not being shod by a farrier Horses do actually know how to grow their own feet to do what we need them to do. We spoil everything by feeding them wrong and not giving them enough exercise on the right surfaces to balance their foot growth with the wear. Or we get them to stand in ammonia or mud half their lives. Then we need to trim or shoe them to make up for that.

Balance: the farrier will usually start on the "long toe", the toe seems to grow quicker, so we need to trim it to level the foot along the "head to tail axis"

If the toe is growing quicker then the horse usually has metabolic or dietary issue which needs to be addressed, not more trimming of the toe.

The angle of the hoof wall to the pastern should be continuous, this is part conformation, part management, part skill of farrier.

This emphasis on hoof/pastern alignment is what causes many farriers to trim toe callous off barefoot horses, making them footie after a trim. We aren't all perfect, and neither are horses. Some of them don't have a perfect hoof/pastern alingment, and some of them only acquire it when allowed to shape their own foot for a year or more.

Rasping the toe off a shod horse, which is how most farriers create the alignment, does not create a proper hoof/pastern alignment, it only makes it "look" right. Only building up or lowering the heel will create a good hoof pastern alignment and that is VERY difficult to do in shoes.

If somebody wants to see the true hoof pastern alignment of their shod horse they should lie down in the dirt and look at the top half inch of the foot where it comes out of the coronet band. Very often in shod horses, this line will be a very different angle from the rest of the toe. If you can imagine following that line down to the floor, you will see the point where your horse's toe would come back to if he was not wearing shoes. In some horses, the two are the same, but in my experience, not in most.

 

[SpottyTB]

Got one horse shod in front and not behind and a retired pony who needs regular trimming - both done by a farrier.

In all honesty, what do people think they learn in the 4 years of studying? They learn pretty much EVERYTHING from the knee down. It's there job and 9 times out of 10 a vet will ask a farriers opinion/advice on a lower leg/ hoof related problem as they are the best to ask. They study anatomy, applied farriery and conformation and movement, all over a 4/5 year period. They go to college every 6months for 3 weeks at least and are drilled and
Tested, if they get anything wrong they are back blocked 6months and have to learn everything again. Farriers work bloody hard to get where they are and personally I wouldn't have anyone else trim my lami prone horse but a farrier. 5 years studying and experienced farrier or a 6 week course trimmer?

Please don't get me wrong, I am sure there are some trimmers out there who spend the time learning and have exspirience but
Pretty much most of the trims I have witnessed are pretty shocking and some even resulted in being a RSPCA case!

 

[Burnttoast]

If somebody wants to see the true hoof pastern alignment of their shod horse they should lie down in the dirt and look at the top half inch of the foot where it comes out of the coronet band. Very often in shod horses, this line will be a very different angle from the rest of the toe. If you can imagine following that line down to the floor, you will see the point where your horse's toe would come back to if he was not wearing shoes. In some horses, the two are the same, but in my experience, not in most.

^^This. Having read this elsewhere a few months back I had a look at my friend's pony (not having one of my own to look at). I had to lift up the hair at the coronary band to see it, but the 'true' angle was there. He's now three months out of shoes, having been shod for 11 years, and when completely grown out will have a completely different hoof - smaller, shorter, and with a much stronger heel. And the consensus had been that his previous hoof was reasonably well-shod. I'm making no particular judgements here, just observing that the changes are dramatic and thought-provoking.

 

[amandap]

Unfortunately, for many horses "correction" of the foot with shoes instead of allowing the horse to grow the foot it knows it needs to match the incorrect conformation of its body will result in a lame horse due to foot strains or arthritis on badly loaded joints higher up the leg. Rockley Farm hunt several horses,which were given to them due to persistent lameness in shoes, who are totally sound, with very oddly shaped feet, without them. Unless you xray on a regular basis you actually have no idea whether your farrier is shoeing balanced to the bones inside the foot or not. See rockleyfarm.blogspot.com for examples.

I second anyone interested in hooves generally and hoof balance to follow this blog. It's a fascinating blog. Here's the link to one post about 'wonky' hard working bare hooves. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/02/wonky-feet-at-work.html

Op, I'd be tempted to find a 'good' trimmer who is willing to teach you maintenance between trims (when appropriate), support and educate you re diet, management etc. and take it from there.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

SpottyTB, your post makes also of sense. However, I have just had to find a new farrier due to the last one not doing a good job at all with my injured mare. I was horrified to discover that the new farrier is also appaled with my other two horses' hooves.

There are bad Farriers out there, despite all the training and exams. There are also brilliant Trimmers around. I think that every horse owner needs to understand a good deal about shoeing, trimming and hoof balance because how else can you judge whether or not your farrier/trimmer is doing a good job. I have learnt so much over the last few months, I just wish that it hadn't happened the way that it did.

 

[Sol]

I second anyone interested in hooves generally and hoof balance to follow this blog. It's a fascinating blog. Here's the link to one post about 'wonky' hard working bare hooves. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/02/wonky-feet-at-work.html

Op, I'd be tempted to find a 'good' trimmer who is willing to teach you maintenance between trims (when appropriate), support and educate you re diet, management etc. and take it from there.

I will have a look at the blog, thanks

I'm especially interested in finding out about feeding etc - it's another one of those very broad subjects that's a complete minefield! Trying to figure out what is actually any good, and what is good but mostly very well marketed and far too expensive for what it is.... I don't mind paying for something decent but there's still a limit and if I can pay less, then great, because the money can be used elsewhere on my horse to keep him just as happy! Thanks

 

[Clava]

I will have a look at the blog, thanks

I'm especially interested in finding out about feeding etc - it's another one of those very broad subjects that's a complete minefield! Trying to figure out what is actually any good, and what is good but mostly very well marketed and far too expensive for what it is.... I don't mind paying for something decent but there's still a limit and if I can pay less, then great, because the money can be used elsewhere on my horse to keep him just as happy! Thanks

"Feet First" is an excellent book for info on diet and healthy barefoot horses and hooves.

 

[Oberon]

The best person to use for the horse's feet is the one who can provide a sympathetic trim.

Be this a farrier, trimmer or your best mate's dad.

The art of successfully trimming a working barefoot horse is definately LESS is MORE

The art of keeping a working barefoot horse sound and happy is down to the owner learning as much as possible about dietry and environmental factors and how they can affect their horse.

If the owner cannot/does not wish to do this, and their horse is not sound and happy - then shoes are the best option.

 

[amandap]

The best person to use for the horse's feet is the one who can provide a sympathetic trim.

Be this a farrier, trimmer or your best mate's dad.

The art of successfully trimming a working barefoot horse is definately LESS is MORE

The art of keeping a working barefoot horse sound and happy is down to the owner learning as much as possible about dietry and environmental factors and how they can affect their horse.

If the owner cannot/does not wish to do this, and their horse is not sound and happy - then shoes are the best option.

I do think this is true. It often takes a lot of hard work and commitment from the owner in the face of huge unknowns with some horses.
I don't think I would ever have mine shod but I don't have hard working ambitions for my horses. So a much easier decision for me.

 

[Sol]

Thanks everyone Will definitely look at ordering that book later. In the mean time, does anyone have any links to good information on diet/management of the barefoot horse that I can look at online? I figure that if I'm going to continue like this, from what I've learned already I might as well get on with it asap

Have to say, Dan's had his hind shoes off about 10 months, possibly longer now, and fronts off since January, trimmed (all round) 3 times inc when his front shoes were taken off. He's only been footsore once - just after his last trim approx 6-8 weeks ago I think and then only on the stonier tracks, not on roads etc. Fine now. His front feet are still cracking a bit though which I would like to know more about. His back feet look nice, but he does have a tendancy to drag his toes on the roads (can hear him in walk) and I'm not sure if this is what's causing some of the cracking? Could it just be because he's had his back shoes off longer and his front feet are still trying to sort themselves out? I'm trying to remember when exactly Dan had his back shoes off now, may have to have a look at photos as it could be a year even! Confused & curious now....

 

[Sol]

Just worked out, 10 months since back shoes off, 6 months since fronts off. (looked at photos! )

 

[SpottyTB]

Faracat- totally know what your saying, unfortunately there are the bad farriers- who could do a good job but due to lazyness they don't. Also every farrier has a different style, my old farrier's style was to leave them long in the toe and 2 weeks after it looked like my pony was due to be done again!

I agree with the thought that everyone should know what a good job it and what an obvious bad job is... I know my farrier and his apprentice (my OH) are looking into/been asked to go to riding clubs and give talks on the basics! Think this would be really popular, anyone else agree?

Also, a question to bare in mind, how many people that have trimmers/ go barefoot use hoof boots when riding?

I find that many people who have no shoes and go barefoot use hoof boots, which in theory are the same as shoes, so you may as well have your horse shod...

 

[amandap]

Sol, re diet, I'm no expert I'm afraid there is so much info out there I think it's best to start as simple as you can and work by adding stuff that is needed or indicated. Movement is vital as well as keeping a good body weight so some time on a track arrangement if possible is a great way to achieve this. Here's an article by Joe Camp I saw on another forum today and although a bit long if you read and digest the basic principles are there in it. Movement, low sugar high forage, appropriate feeding or not depending on forage... If you're not having problems don't worry too much.
http://www.thehorseshoof.com/THH43_JoeCamp.pdf

 

[Sol]

I agree with the thought that everyone should know what a good job it and what an obvious bad job is... I know my farrier and his apprentice (my OH) are looking into/been asked to go to riding clubs and give talks on the basics! Think this would be really popular, anyone else agree?

I think this would be a good idea If there was something like that near here, that didn't cost too much/wasn't too long (and was open to non RC/PC members) then I'd go along...

Also, a question to bare in mind, how many people that have trimmers/ go barefoot use hoof boots when riding?

I find that many people who have no shoes and go barefoot use hoof boots, which in theory are the same as shoes, so you may as well have your horse shod...

I've not personally known anyone whose horses aren't shod who use boots... I've looked into it briefly only because of Dan's front feet cracking on the roads. I suppose boots are only on for a short amount of time most likely (while you work the horse) whereas shoes are on 24/7 with no break from them, and I presume boots are less detrimental to lose than a shoe twisting or something?
Bear with me, I'm trying to learn Well aware I may be very wrong!! (so correct me nicely, please?)

 

[Sol]

Sol, re diet, I'm no expert I'm afraid there is so much info out there I think it's best to start as simple as you can and work by adding stuff that is needed or indicated. Movement is vital as well as keeping a good body weight so some time on a track arrangement if possible is a great way to achieve this. Here's an article by Joe Camp I saw on another forum today and although a bit long if you read and digest the basic principles are there in it. Movement, low sugar high forage, appropriate feeding or not depending on forage... If you're not having problems don't worry too much.
http://www.thehorseshoof.com/THH43_JoeCamp.pdf

Thank you! No, we don't seem to be having any problems as such, just looking for confirmation really that I'm going about things in a decent manner? Dan's mostly just got grass (he's out 24/7 at the sec with a bit of hay too, but usually half in & half out approx with ad lib hay when in) and has 2 feeds a day with a cup of balancer & some hi-fi He's a good weight, certainly not fat but he's been in lighter work the last few weeks and as we up the schooling again I'd expect him to lose just a little bit and then he'll be where I prefer him to be. Plenty of exercise! Currently mostly hacking, on roads, seeing as we have no arena at home.
Must add that since he's had his shoes off, he did 14 miles including 6 on roads at mostly walk/bits of trot, and 8 mile farm ride with lots of galloping & jumping. Came home perfectly sound!

 

[Oberon]

I've never used hoof boots. If my horses needed some form of foot protection, I would be looking at why and sort the problem out instead.

But there is no shame in using them and they're not the same thing as shoes.

You won't get the same pathologies from boots that alot of shod horses develop.

Regarding diet....

The feet reflect the horse's health. If there is a problem with the hoof's growth and integerity - it is almost always because of a dietry or metabolic issue.

The gold standard for solving dietry issues now (IMO) is to do a foreage analysis with full mineral profile (£50) and bespoke diet for your horse (£35).

This way you save pots of money by not throwing food at the horse blindly and you provide the best nutrition they need.

Feet First, courses by Dr Kellon, Yahoo groups and the UKNHCP forum are some resources to start off with.

After taking the shoes off a horse, they will adjust bodily.

It is good practice to have them seen by a good body worker (McTimoney/physio etc). That often solves the 'dragging a leg' issue.

 

[SpottyTB]

I think they were going to do it for free (well the price of a Cuppa and some dairy land cookies) !!

Perhaps if they start it down here my farrier can put forward the idea to others up country!

Hmmm I have to say, I'd rather pay £35 for fronts then £100 or whatever it is for boots . Having got a horse that without over reach boots will rip a shoe off put on an hour previous (she is the length of a 13hh pony but 15.2hh in height), I would not consider paying that for boots as she would demolish them In one hack! £5 for a pair of over reach boots is much better!

 

[SpottyTB]

Btw- I know I sort of contradict myself, but her previous owner tried boots on her whilst she broke her in, and she manage to get them off so just going by personal experience, also perhaps the grounds more harder/rockier down here (Cornwall)

 

[amandap]

Must add that since he's had his shoes off, he did 14 miles including 6 on roads at mostly walk/bits of trot, and 8 mile farm ride with lots of galloping & jumping. Came home perfectly sound!

You probably don't need boots if he's coping well. Here's some important 'rules' about trimming, the 'roll' is a very important aspect and is done on the outer wall not the inner wall or water line. The roll counteracts the spreading when the hoof is loaded with the horses weight and help stop splits and chips.
http://blog.easycareinc.com/blog/on...-trim-guidelines-and-a-few-noteworthy-caveats

 

[Pale Rider]

If somebody wants to see the true hoof pastern alignment of their shod horse they should lie down in the dirt and look at the top half inch of the foot where it comes out of the coronet band. Very often in shod horses, this line will be a very different angle from the rest of the toe. If you can imagine following that line down to the floor, you will see the point where your horse's toe would come back to if he was not wearing shoes. In some horses, the two are the same, but in my experience, not in most.[/QUOTE]

This from cptrayes is spot on. The hoof the horse actually wants to grow is always very different from the hoof that actually grows in the shod horse.

I know it's been said but the message for barefoot has to be hammered home all the time that it is exercise, diet and trimming that is the road to success with it.

I also feel that the amount of exercise a horse needs to do, to be properly barefoot is far more than the average owner can manage. It is the constant movement over distance that is the real key.

Hooves are stimulated by exercise and will grow in accordingly, plus exercise compensates for the rediculous diets that are the normal fare for most of our horses. If they can burn the stuff up in work, it helps them cope with it and not be slowly poisoned.

Shoeing horses has a purpose, and it is so that we can treat them as we do ie. stabled for long periods or stood in fields knee deep in rye grass, the low grade laminitis that is masked by shoes. The down side is the intermitent lameness, joint, tendon and muscular problems, navicular, injuries to other horses kicked by shod horses and relatively short working life.

This argument will continue to go round and round, but more and more people are giving it a go, which has to be a good thing.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I think that talks about good/bad trimming and shoeing at Riding Clubs would be brilliant.

PS. Sorry for my awful spelling today.

 

[tallyho!]

I find that many people who have no shoes and go barefoot use hoof boots, which in theory are the same as shoes, so you may as well have your horse shod...

I used to think this but then I realised they are vastly different. Every now and again my horse needs boots. He was/is a laminitic and so seems to have more sensitive days sometimes - fluctuations in grass sugars from our weather pattern no doubt. I wouldn't put shoes on just because of this though.

(Wouldn't rule it out but would have to be drastic for me to put shoes back on and I would be very picky about who did it.)

Why don't we boot horses instead of nailing metal bars on anyway? Shoes are 'permanent' rigid structures which eventually damages hooves. Even the farriery textbooks written by the masters state this.

You can get some amazing boots these days!! You only need to put on when needed, comfortable, hard wearing, reduces concussion, a pair can last two years and lets feet do their thing. There will come a time when affiliates will welcome them but I guess now, shoes are still the acceptable form of hoof protection (there's a paradox!). "Barefoot" trainers are even being marketed for top human athletes these days as the benefits have been studied and been found favourable!

I know we shoe for our own convenience, but I fail to see what ISN'T convenient about boots for us AND horses.

 

[Pale Rider]

I used to think this but then I realised they are vastly different. Every now and again my horse needs boots. He was/is a laminitic and so seems to have more sensitive days sometimes - fluctuations in grass sugars from our weather pattern no doubt. I wouldn't put shoes on just because of this though.

(Wouldn't rule it out but would have to be drastic for me to put shoes back on and I would be very picky about who did it.)

Why don't we boot horses instead of nailing metal bars on anyway? Shoes are 'permanent' rigid structures which eventually damages hooves. Even the farriery textbooks written by the masters state this.

You can get some amazing boots these days!! You only need to put on when needed, comfortable, hard wearing, reduces concussion, a pair can last two years and lets feet do their thing. There will come a time when affiliates will welcome them but I guess now, shoes are still the acceptable form of hoof protection (there's a paradox!). "Barefoot" trainers are even being marketed for top human athletes these days as the benefits have been studied and been found favourable!

I know we shoe for our own convenience, but I fail to see what ISN'T convenient about boots for us AND horses.

^^agree^^