Unusual Mounting issue

[Ifmpw]

As an older rider, and with a multitude of old injuries, my horses standing stock still for mounting is the most important thing for me. My young horse now stands absolutely stock still for me to mount, he then gets a polo as a thank you.

Now this is where the issue starts, I have to bully him away from the block - which i am uncomfortable with, as i absolutely get why he is doing what he does. My two girls totally understand the brief, stand to be mounted, get a polo, then walk on. The young gelding cannot work it out, and i end up like i say bullying him. I have started to give him the polo at the block, then when he walks away from it, with bullying, I stop him and give him another polo.

any ideas, as I really don't like the bullying part, but the standing still is so so important to me

 

[humblepie]

Have you got someone who could entice him/lead him and reward? If not, could practice in hand so okay you’re not mounting but he stands at block then walks away. Then once you are mounted ride past the block next time halt at block and move off. Just some random thoughts.

 

[dixie]

I think you might have to sort this in hand.

I would do your usual standing still and a polo and then in a firm voice ask him to walk on and lead him away with lots of praise and then repeat.
Once he gets it then try mounted. Is there someone who can help you once mounted to lead him away the first time when you give him the voice command?

 

[AdorableAlice]

I have a different view. He needs to respect your leg at all times, it might just save his life at some point. So I feel you need to forget the word bullying him and think he needs to obey your instruction instantly. So he has stood still and you are safely on board, leg on and he ignores you, firmer leg on and still nothing needs a swift tap with a long whip and allow him to go forwards for a number of steps before asking for halt which can be rewarded with a neck scratch only. He needs to listen and react for his own good, you really are not bullying him.

I too have to use a tall block to get on and off. My horses have been taught to stand at the block which is 5 pallets high with a rubber top and breeze block steps. They stand rock still whilst I get on and get my irons, they then get a treat of a mint, bit of carrot or fibre nugget. Then it is leg on and forwards away from the block to another halt for gloves and girth then leg on and out of the yard. The dismount is stand still until I am off and then they get a treat before being asked to walk around the block and allow me to lean on their necks to totter back down the steps.

 

[Flying_Form]

I do think if possible, replace the treat for praise? A pat on the neck doesn’t mean they have to stop and wait for it like a treat. I have a horse who absolutely loves praise, and would do anything if it results in a pat - however I know not all horses see praise/pats as a high value reward. I often try to stay away from treats because, as lovely as they are, I do find they can sometimes cause behaviours like this, or things like getting mouthy with people/checking pockets/getting in your space etc.

If treats do work for you however (which is lovely and there is nothing wrong with it, every horse of mine gets a polo after their round of jumps when we go out, clear or not!) I think you might need to help this horse make a clearer connection that he has to stand still for you to get on and go and then treat, rather than “maybe if I stand here forever and ever and she might give me more treats”.

Potentially get on, walk a lap of the school and then a treat? I would also avoid rewarding at the same places, or distances. Maybe today you stop at the gate after your lap, but don’t stop there tomorrow. Also maybe one time you do half a lap then treat, the next time you do it after a couple steps - don’t be too consistent with the presenting of the treat, what you need to be consistent with is what you’re asking : when YOU are happy with him letting you get on and THEN moving away from the mounting block he will get a reward when YOU see fit.

Also, as AdorableAlive said above, putting leg on is not bullying. If he isn’t listening to your gentle aid, you need to put on a stronger one. Asking firmly isn’t bullying, it ensures he clearly understands your cue and isn’t ignoring you!

 

[Goldenstar]

He needs to move off your leg and it’s not unreasonable to expect that .
I am older as well and Sky stands at the block until he gets a treat .
He moves off to verbal command .

 

[Gloi]

I do similar. He gets a treat at the block then needs to walk off when told. After a few yards I stop and he stands still while I check the girth and do anything else I need to do. He gets a treat for standing for that and then we are ready to go and I expect him to go when told.
A side effect is that he knows when I am reaching for a treat and will stand stock still which has been so useful while hacking as I can put him at the side of the road and if he thinks he will get a treat absolutely anything can pass him without him moving.

 

[Nasicus]

Is this all relatively new to him? Just wondering of it's not related to the treat, and he's just being a bit nappy?

 

[Landcruiser]

Try backing him off the block to unstick his feet, then move off. I always move off in random directions anyway, just so they don't anticipate, but I had the beginnings of this exact problem with my youngster for exactly the same reason. Backing a few steps nipped it in the bud and we now have a treat, then wait until I ask to move off in my direction of choice.

 

[PurpleSpots]

It sounds like he is simply keen to earn more sweets after learning the standing still game well, and who can blame him clever boy!

How long will he stand still after his polo if you just wait? My hunch is that he simply needs to work out that it is 1 task = 1 polo, and once done there aren't any more on offer for that task. If you have the time and patience and nobody else is wanting you to move off quickly, it might be interesting to just wait after he's had his polo until he shows signs of wanting to move off on a couple or three occasions, and at that point use your light aids for moving off. Only on two or three occasions so he understands that there are no more polos on offer for standing still after being mounted, but before it becomes habit that he just starts walking off himself before or without the cue/request from you. He just needs to shift his expectations about what is going to happen next.

If he doesn't work out the 1 task = 1 polo concept out himself after 2-3 occasions I wouldn't keep going through the same process of just waiting until he shows signs he wants to move off after his polo as that will communicate to him that the ball's in his court for that, so to speak, but it's just to give him chance to process and understand the concept. That's the most powerful and positive sort of learning - working it out yourself.

I understand that it feels mean to pressure him to do the opposite of what you've just been rewarding him to do, and it's potentially confusing for him too. But if you keep your criteria for treats quite stringent, he should soon work out that it's the specific task in return for one treat and that's it. If the above doesn't work there'll be another way to explain it to him.

It's sometimes tricky working with positive reinforcement as you can get too much try - especially when you want to change the goalposts for a reason initially inexplicable for the horse! It's sometimes trial and error as to what helps them understand the 'rules' or the criteria and to help them manage their expectations.

I like Gloi's process - one sweet for standing to be mounted, one sweet for girth check, and super focused on the precursors to sweet-giving at other times which has an added benefit in stressful situations!

I also like Landcruiser's method, I'd not thought of doing that. Sharing ideas is always interesting!

 

[Sanversera]

Stop feeding him polo s and get someone to lead him away until he understands your leg aid.

 

[Ifmpw]

Thanks for all the replies, so to give you all a bit more context:-
1. i ride at 5.30 in the morning - only person on the yard at this time, I have to ride at this time due to work
2. He responds to my leg at all other times, and is quite sharp of the leg
3. Its not a new issue, but the first issue was him standing at the mountain block, he was a nightmare when I first got him
4. I do worry about the mixed message he is getting from me, as the most important thing was for him to stand stock still which he does.

I quite like the walk away and check girth one, so will see how we go.

 

[Skib]

Charles Harris had a different approach. He regarded mounting as a stressful process for both rider (leaving the ground) and the horse (taking the weight of the rider. He suggested that after mounting and finding ones stirrups, the rider should relax in the saddle and relax their hands on the reins, waiting for the horse to relax and to lower its head.
Only after the head was down and the horse relaxed should the rider take up the reins and ask the horse to walk gently forward, away from the mounting block.

I was always able to do this at our previous instructor's yard but it is difficult in a yard with only one mounting block and other people waiting to use it.

 

[maya2008]

I would probably cue to a verbal command that I could practice in hand. He needs a ‘standing still is done’ command as it were. So in hand I would park by the block. Polo. Give verbal cue, walk him forward, praise as he walks then stop for polo. Repeat again and again and again. Lots of verbal praise, neck rubs when he gets it right. Then hop on and see if you can move off without forcing it to the verbal cue. If necessary hop off and redo from the ground and then get on and try…until he gets it.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I'm sorry but I have to laugh - and maybe OP can - but the idea of the older rider "hopping off" rather contradicts the whole point of teaching the horse to stand at the block, we can't hop on and off these days

 

[AdorableAlice]

I'm sorry but I have to laugh - and maybe OP can - but the idea of the older rider "hopping off" rather contradicts the whole point of teaching the horse to stand at the block, we can't hop on and off these days

This morning hack of 90 minutes on return to yard. Position at huge block, pat horse, tell her she is wonderful, if a little bouncy and the huge spook due to a sparrow farting is forgiven, despite the resultant whiplash.

Give treat and instructions to wait, ditch irons and flex ankles, wiggle knees, make decision if knees are talking to hips. Hold mane, lean forward, remind mare to stand still as she seems to be taking an interest in the nearby raspberry bush. Go for it and get leg over arse of mare, opps, kicked her in the hip, never mind, she’s used to it. Successful touch down on block. Stretch everything again, curse everything that hurts, tug mare round to stand on the other side of the huge block, use her ears as a handrail whilst wincing my way down the steps.

Totter and limp back to her house, telling her how wonderful she is and shove more treats in whilst promising we can do it all again tomorrow. Our combined age is 84 !

 

[ycbm]

I have always taught the real youngsters to move off by asking them to step sideways with a weight and a rein aid, not forwards. You're essentially putting them off balance so they have to bring out a foreleg to recover it, but as soon as they move you can voice reward and they get the idea to keep walking really quickly.
.

 

[eahotson]

Charles Harris had a different approach. He regarded mounting as a stressful process for both rider (leaving the ground) and the horse (taking the weight of the rider. He suggested that after mounting and finding ones stirrups, the rider should relax in the saddle and relax their hands on the reins, waiting for the horse to relax and to lower its head.
Only after the head was down and the horse relaxed should the rider take up the reins and ask the horse to walk gently forward, away from the mounting block.

I was always able to do this at our previous instructor's yard but it is difficult in a yard with only one mounting block and other people waiting to use it.

Charles Harris sounds a good guy.

 

[sollimum]

So I would set up stations where he receives a reward. So stand nicely, get on, walk away to next station (cone or marker). receive a treat and praise, then on to the next, the next and so on. Expand the distances between the markers and I would also use a low value treat such as a grass nut not a polo, so you are not providing a high value reward.. I would practise this in hand first and then get on and practise riding it. He needs to be rewarded for standing but also rewarded for moving on.

 

[Red-1]

I'm another who is older and creaky, and I bought a 4yo unseen. I have a huuuuge block where he has to stand. I did initially use treats. In fact, we used treats to the point where I could set everything up at the gate and jog myself to the mounting block without him being held. He'd jog there too, slightly different route, stirrups flying, spin round and position himself and stand like a rock while I faffed. Sometimes he beat me there! I could then accidentally knee his ass, wriggle into the stirrups and faff with tissue, lipsyl and gloves.

And then... I had the same issue. He really liked the mounting block! But it was 2 pronged:-

I too felt like I was bullying him, as I realised that, at the mounting block only, I had taught him that legs moving, being bumped, me being off balance... none of those things were aids and he needed to ignore them.

As I'd taught him that, at the mounting block, weight and leg aids were to be ignored, I started to use a voice aid to break the cycle. I would also do what ycbm said, and take him off balance sideways with my rein. That unstuck him to a degree, so I also practiced moving off from the mounting block many times. At the start of the session, we'd do the mounting, he'd stand like a rock whatever happened, then we built up a routing of new aids, then walked a circle and repeated, and repeated.

He soon learned to follow those instructions.

Sadly, for H, he is a greedy one and he'd learned the lesson, so I stopped treats. He knows how to stand now. Happily, he also knows how to listen for the voice and moves off also!

 

[Skib]

Charles Harris sounds a good guy.

He was. In old age he was much concerned with the safety of children riding and lived locally to us so became friendly with our RI.
But Charles Harris was not his real name. After he died, his nephew published the note books which Harris had kept of his lessons from Podhajsky at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna and revealed that his (Jewish) birth name was Gallewski.
When I indexed the book of his notes I researched his background and time in the army. His army career and postings (as declared in the book) seemed both unusual and unlikely. I would hazard a guess that he probably worked for British Intelligence.
For a long time and thanks to this Charles Harris connection, I rode in a Podhajski saddle (still my favorite saddle). But it was a shock to discover its background. After grim years as a holocaust historian, my reward to myself was learning to ride. When I googled Podhajsky, I was astounded to find him in full Nazi regalia.
There is a good book related to this by a Dutch journalist who investigated.
Frank Westerman, Brother Mendel’s perfect horse.

 

[eahotson]

He was. In old age he was much concerned with the safety of children riding and lived locally to us so became friendly with our RI.
But Charles Harris was not his real name. After he died, his nephew published the note books which Harris had kept of his lessons from Podhajsky at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna and revealed that his (Jewish) birth name was Gallewski.
When I indexed the book of his notes I researched his background and time in the army. His army career and postings (as declared in the book) seemed both unusual and unlikely. I would hazard a guess that he probably worked for British Intelligence.
For a long time and thanks to this Charles Harris connection, I rode in a Podhajski saddle (still my favorite saddle). But it was a shock to discover its background. After grim years as a holocaust historian, my reward to myself was learning to ride. When I googled Podhajsky, I was astounded to find him in full Nazi regalia.
There is a good book related to this by a Dutch journalist who investigated.
Frank Westerman, Brother Mendel’s perfect horse.

Fascinating I had heard of Charles Harris of course,but nothing of his background.How sad that he felt he had to hide his Jewish background.I must look up that book.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

He was. In old age he was much concerned with the safety of children riding and lived locally to us so became friendly with our RI.
But Charles Harris was not his real name. After he died, his nephew published the note books which Harris had kept of his lessons from Podhajsky at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna and revealed that his (Jewish) birth name was Gallewski.
When I indexed the book of his notes I researched his background and time in the army. His army career and postings (as declared in the book) seemed both unusual and unlikely. I would hazard a guess that he probably worked for British Intelligence.
For a long time and thanks to this Charles Harris connection, I rode in a Podhajski saddle (still my favorite saddle). But it was a shock to discover its background. After grim years as a holocaust historian, my reward to myself was learning to ride. When I googled Podhajsky, I was astounded to find him in full Nazi regalia.
There is a good book related to this by a Dutch journalist who investigated.
Frank Westerman, Brother Mendel’s perfect horse.

I read quite a lot of CH's work in my younger days but knew nothing of his background, except that he had been in the military.

 

[paddy555]

I have never given a treat for standing still whilst I mounted,. It never occurred to me.
I expect them to stand at the block and then move on at walk on based on voice commands.
I often have to get off a couple of times on a ride and back on which means find a gate to climb up, bank to crawl up etc and they have to stand where ever it is.

for getting off (combined age 90) I found it became very easy onto the ground by completely flexing my legs from waist down with toes pointing down, totally stiff all the way down. Then

rocking slightly backwards, then forwards and then jump off with a pretty stiff right leg. It really changed dismounting from a scramble to absolutely nothing.

 

[maya2008]

‘Hop’ is a saying not a literal expectation. I get off extremely slowly due to feet that like to dislocate parts of themselves if I land too hard - but I would still ‘hop off’ to get a whip I had dropped. Just…slowly!

Terminology aside, the horse needs a cue for ‘end of standing still and ignoring rider movements time’. I suggested voice because that is not something you are asking him to ignore while you get on.

 

[Skib]

I say, Walk on