UPDATE Ari - I have a spastic horse....

[MrsMagoo]

well heard from the vet yesterday how the scan etc went and the results as follows:

Bone Scan/Back/neck/legs - no real findings apart from a small increase in bone activity in the left sacriolic joint, which although falls inline with the left hind problem, he didnt think was significant to warrent treatment - which 90% of times doesnt work

Muscle Biopsey - results not back yet

Nuerological testing - I have a 'spastic' horse - he said she wasnt aware of where her front legs are and is i quote "spastic with her hindlegs", which could maybe explain her lack of co-ordination when cantering etc...

so thats about it, not much else they can do and no treatment for the neurological side of things!!! waiting to hear from my own vet to decide what next and if nothing else, she will be coming home this weekend and be turned away until next spring????

 

[MarthaRodman1]

Oh blimey - sorry to hear that! But you never know, the rest might do her good. Like you said, have a chat with your vet and see what he recommends. Really sorry to hear that.... Chin up though!

 

[Weezy]

Oh Gosh how interesting - will be interesting to see what the muscle biopsy says tho!

 

[MrsMagoo]

talking to my vet - the neurological results seem to point to wobblers but then theres no other typical signs of that syndrome, and they did x-ray the neck just incase - sooo think the last things they can do, are to nerve block the sacriolic joint and wait for the biopsy results which will be next week now...

 

[Weezy]

Do keep us updated - have been following avidly and would be great if eventually they DO find the cause of his probs!

 

[dunc_n_toby]

oh hell, I went down the possible wobbler line this time last year! the only way to confirm wobbler syndrome is with a myleogram! The x rays my horse had showed signs he was a wobbler. Equine specialist local hospital said my fella was a wobbler, ouwld never be ridden again and to keep him as either a pasture pet or PTS! Three weeks later he was fine, won't go into the ful story but he's certainly not a wobbler! had a full seasons hunting and a summer of SJ'ing! some wobbler!

 

[Lottie7]

They thought my horse had a sacroilliac problem too as the first scan showed a hot spot in that area. They second scan a year later was clear in that respect. The only hot spot that showed up on both of his scans was in the right hock. However, this was not causing his problem - EPSM was. Therefore, xrays and scans etc can be misleading.

Any idea where they are sending the muscle biopsy? I thought there was only one place in the country set up to do these, Edinburgh I think. You could always send it to Beth Valentine for a second opinon - straight to the expert. I think Beaconhorse did this. To be honest, I wouldn't really trust anybody else's reading.

Having said that, I'm sure you have upmost faith in your vets. My horse was misdiagnosed for so long that I rather lost faith.

Fingers crossed that you get to the bottom of this soon.
x

 

[Kelly1982]

Oh no i really hope that its not wobblers!!!

As you know i went down this route and was advised to have horse PTS as he would eventually become a danger to himself and to others. My vets said he has neurological problems which were confirmed with a neck x-ray.

I got him referred to the Liphook clinic in Hampshire (with thanks to dunc & toby) as one vet there travels the world doing wobblers operations so i wanted Trike to have the myleogram to see how bad he had it (they have to be a low grade wobbler to have the op). I braced myself for the news that he was a high grade wobbler and the choice would be to have him PTS there and then as i couldn't bare to see him deteriorate.

It turned out that he didn't have wobblers, the vet could only see minimal neurological problems and his x-rays of neck and back were clear. He has loads of other tests too all adding up to about £4000 inc a muscle biopsy!!

It turned out that he had muscular problems and even though the biopsy results came back clear other tests pointed to EPSM and we found the the high oil diet really helped him.

Trike had trouble cantering and when you eventually got him into canter it was a hjob to keep him in it. The vet told me to bring him back into work slowly and give him loads of time to recover.

From what Rambo has said he is improving really well and his canter is coming on leaps and bounds and he is even doing flying changes now (would only ever change his front when i had him).

I really hope its EPSM and not wobblers as it is so easily treated.

I will keep my fingers crossed for you and Ari and keep us updated.

 

[Nickymac]

This is all really interesting reading to me as I left Hector at Rossdales yesterday with right hind lameness, and it feels to me like it's high up, not hock or fetlock, and he was diagnosed with low grade tying-up syndrome two years ago...... He's having a bone scan today so hopefully things will become clearer.

 

[MrsMagoo]

Kelly - I dont think they are looking at i being wobblers, they did the neck x-ray which was all clear. I did mention to my vet about ESPM but I havent heard what they found from the muscle biopsy yet. My vet said that if nothing comes from the sacriallic nerve block today they theres no harm in trying a change in diet for ESPM....

Sooo fingers crossed, maybe the nerve block will show somthing today...

 

[Kelly1982]

Thats good that they are not too concerned about it being wobblers, you had me scared for a second there.

The muscle biopsy usually takes about 2 weeks i think (well mine did) but maybe it would be a good idea to start her on the diet now whilst she is having tests done anyway as it can take about 4-6 weeks before you start to notice a difference and up to a year before you see the full change. I noticed a difference after 2 weeks though and so did the vet. It wont hurt her and if it doesn't work you can always swap her back.

I am still keeping my fingers crossed for you that at least one test will show up something so that you can start treating accordingly.

 

[Lottie7]

Kelly's post is a real inspiration. So many horses are misdiagnosed and written off / PTS when all they actually had was EPSM. There is so much wastage in the industry through overlooking this disease. My own horse couldn't canter a circle (bunny hopping, changing behind) and showed a shortness in one hind for years. He suffered with undiagnosed EPSM until he was 10 years old (inc tying up as a 4 year old). After diet change he evented very successfully to intermediate level, such was the change in his abilities.

I hope the nerve block of the sacroilliac does not show anything. Believe me, if it is EPSM then with careful management and diet change you will see an unbelievable difference. As Kelly says, you have got nothing to lose, but everything to gain, by starting the diet change asap.

Keeping everything crossed for you.
x

 

[MrsMagoo]

By what everyone ones is saying, especially you Lottie7 - Ari is exactly like your horse cant canter circles and shortness in hind leg....I think we are going to give the diet a go for ESPM....can somone give me an idea of what you were feeding yours as a diet???

 

[Kelly1982]

This is what i fed Trike if this is any help:

Alpha-a lite
Buckeye grown 'n' win feed balancer
Vit E & selenium
600g soya oil

The Vit E & Oil is a MUST!!!!!! I worked out the oil as per Trikes weight, he was 574kg so i gave him 600g of oil.

You are not allowed to feed them anything with sugar in so the best thing to do is look for feeds that are laminitus (sp) approved. I chose to give Trike a feed balancer so he could get what he needs from that but i do know people who just give there horses nuts.

I know its coming into winter now but i was also told to give him as little spring grass as possible as its is full of sugar but horses with EPSM still need much turn out as possible!!!

They also need to be warmed up very slowly and cooled down well too and if they have been off work for a while then take extra care in bringing them back into work slowly.

Basically i was told to treat him as a laminatic horse, even things like carrots cant be fed that often.

You have nothing to loose from starting this diet as even if she doesn't have EPSM it will still be good for her.

Just remember to increase the oil gradually every couple of days or so.

If you need anymore advise then you can just PM me.

Hope that helps

 

[MrsMagoo]

OOh thanks Kelly, very helpful. Few more questions

do you have to feed a chaff/alfa a etc? she is currently just fed horse/pony nuts?

also can it just be normal oil or does it have to be soya??

Ta hun x

 

[Kelly1982]

I dont think it is a necessity to feed alpha but to be honest it is best as it soaks up the oil.

You have to feed quite a bit of oil so if there was no chaff then it would just sit in a puddle at the bottom of the bucket and i dont think she would eat it.

It doesn't have to be soya oil, i just found that easier to get hold of, but you can feed corn oil and i think vegtable oil as well which you can buy in bulk quite cheap from supermarkets.

Some horses dont like the oil though so Beaconhorse told me to add sugar free apple juice but Trike scoffed it down without that.

Also in the winter feed Speedibeat instead of Sugarbeat if you usually put her on beat.

Hope that helps x

 

[MrsMagoo]

Great help thanks - well we are going to collect her this afro but havnt heard how the nerve block went yet....I shall start her on the diet straight away, just to see what happens. Sooo for the shopping list - Alfa A lite, as have eveything else

 

[Kelly1982]

Oh keep us updated on the results of the nerve block.

Just bear in mind you wont see the results straight away so dont get downhearted by it. I started to notice a difference in about 2 weeks but some horses you wont notice for up to 6 weeks and its not until a year has passed before the diet is in full force.

Also be prepared for a few sets backs, these usually happen at about 3 months. Trike had a set back around that time for about a week but the vet warned me it would be a bumpy road.

Good luck and fingers crossed it is just a change of diet and nothing more serious x

 

[Lottie7]

I can only reiterate everything Kelly has said.

My own horse is fed Saracen Releve (this is a mix with very low starch content - formulated primarily for tying up), Alfa A Lite and oil (plus the supplements). I have fed corn and soya oil but currently feed sunflower as it is easier for me to source at the moment.

I would imagine you will definitely need to feed some form of chaff to soak up the oil. Hi Fi Lite is also fine if you don't want to feed Alfa A. Just watch the mollasses content on these sorts or products ie mollichop and normal Alfa A.

Be prepred for it to be trial and error. For instance, getting the consistency right - my horse hates a sloppy feed. I do believe that most horses taste buds do eventually adjust to this diet.

Also, the point Kelly made about grass is something you need to bear in mind. My own horse would have a set back on just a small amount of spring or autumn grass and had to be muzzled. Nowadays, he does not do high quantity schooling but primarily just hacks so I am not so paranoid. I think this can often account for those undiagnosed horses who seem to get better and then have a set back - this can often relate to grass growth.

By the way - be prepared for the paranoia. It's a really bumpy journey but there are loads of people on here to offer help if you find he periodically stops eating.

On a positive note, I must just mention an advanced event horse I know. He always had mild inexplicable problems which he coped with but these became more pronounced a couple of years ago and he underwent loads of tests including stifle surgery. This didn't put him right (enough to event) and he was booked in to be PTS (at just 13yrs). He had a last minute (day before!) reprieve when the syndicate was persuaded to let someone have him in the hope that he would be OK to use as a hack. Well you've guessed it - the new owner put him on the EPSM diet and he hasn't looked back. In fact, he would be OK to event again but they aren't into that. Close call and a very lucky horsey. Bit of an inspirational story though.

Good luck - hope you get to the bottom of this soon.

 

[sassyequine]

Hi All,

I am really interested in reading about all this as I am a little bit in despair about my horse. He is a 5 yr old Zangersheide Warmblood gelding. Bought in June to SJ, stoping at fences and lame 4 weeks after buying (have pursued legal route, no good!) Initially diagnosed as Upper suspensory desmitis, hole about size of little finger nail in ligament. That was in July. It would only block out to the tarsal metatarsal joint and not to the nerve, and when it did he then went lame in front. He has since had 3 months off and 3 shock wave sessions and some cortisone. I have been bringing him back into walk work and I still think he feels awful, tripping, stumbling and crossing his own legs a lot. As well as getting grumpy about rugging and tacking up (which is totally unlike him?) we re assessed him on monday and he is still lame, and now it only blocks 70% to the TMT joint. There is definately something else going on, I know him and he is uncomfortable and tripping and stumbling a lot? He has had some digital x rays taken of his hocks and my vet is reviewing them and sending them to Rossdales for 2nd opinion. At the moment they seem to be focussing on the hind leg and I just feel like there is something else, he feels cold backed and really unhappy about moving forward. They are saying that they may operate on the ligament, which until they diagnose him properly I am a bit reluctant to do. I have never seen a horse with wobblers but reading some of this it sounds like him? Any advice or thoughts would be welcome?

 

[MrsMagoo]

I'd be inclined to ask for a scintingraphy scan (bone scan) on p whole body and also if you are suspecting wobblers they would need to x-ray the neck and prob do a neurological test!!

we went down the same route with my mare thinking it was a hind leg problem and as you've read it clearly wasnt! dont let them fob you of with the first thing, if your insurance can cover more test then go for it