Update - horse with blood in urine

ester

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I doubt very much that it is cancer, the weight loss tends to be rapid and Bailey wouldn't be looking otherwise healthy if it had been going on for months.

Have you considered a PPID test? My old horse didn't get fat last summer; I have had him for 18 years and he has turned into a lardarse every year without fail. Last year I had to give him hard feed to maintain his weight, so I had him tested and it came back positive.
You're braver than me bringing that one up again :p
 

applecart14

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You took the words right out of my mouth :lol:
I am glad that you feel the need to ridicule me, it must be a source of highly amusing fun that I am sat here in tears worried about my horse and what they are going to find out on Friday and yet you still feel the need to make unnecessary remarks at my expense. Well done. Not only is he leaking blood from somewhere but he has an intermittent lameness problem and his pinworm still hasn't cleared up. Its a never ending battle trying to sort him out and it woudl be nice to have some support.

As for the test I have suggested this test to the vet as I wanted it done (Ester you may remember this conversation with me) and the vet said it wasn't necessary. I then asked two other vets that came out for things over the last year (bacterial leg infection, dental check, splenic entrapment) and each one has said that there is little point in testing for it. I have already stated this on previous posts but you are not listening to me. My friends elderly pony had prascend for a couple of months and her vet said she could take her off it and she was off it for 18 months or so before going back on it again.

The vets that I have spoken to myself (my own vets) another vet from another practice and funnily the vet that actually vetted my horse 12 years ago for me, and a friend who is with yet another practise have all said the same things, there is little point for testing for this and even less point in treating it unless the horse has laminitis. Again all documented on previous posts.

Some 60% of horses over 16 years have it. Make of that what you will. But there are lots and lots of horses that have it with no outward signs. My horse has lost weight but he doesn't have any of the myriad of other symptoms cushings has.
 

Leo Walker

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My horse has lost weight but he doesn't have any of the myriad of other symptoms cushings has.
Yes he does. You just listed quite a lot of them in that post.

Have you asked all these vets why he they wont give him a cushings test? Given his age and the things you list it would be one of the first things my vets would do.

You claim to be very worried about this horse but you dont seem to be doing anything about it other than posting on here telling everyone all the many reasons he doesnt need a vet. I've had a similar situation where I was unhappy with the vets attitude and treatment. I got a second opinion.
 

Cecile

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Yes he does. You just listed quite a lot of them in that post.

Have you asked all these vets why he they wont give him a cushings test? Given his age and the things you list it would be one of the first things my vets would do.

You claim to be very worried about this horse but you dont seem to be doing anything about it other than posting on here telling everyone all the many reasons he doesnt need a vet. I've had a similar situation where I was unhappy with the vets attitude and treatment. I got a second opinion.
I believe AC's vet is due out on Friday hence why she is stressing about her horse which is totally understandable
Everyone is different and I am one of those who if I don't have the vet immediately if something is really bothering me I loose sleep, become a worry wart and overthink things but hey ho that is just me
Maybe AC finds it easier to write her worries or concerns down about her horse before the vet comes out
Hopefully Friday's vet visit will help resolve or find answers to the problem, its only 48hrs time ~ again I hate Friday aptm's due to not wanting to wait for any test results but my vet is brilliant and knows my phone works 24/7
 

applecart14

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Yes he does. You just listed quite a lot of them in that post.
Pinworm is on the increase in older horses due to worming resistance and there are a huge amount of cases around at the moment. The vet believes it was set off when the horse moved yards due to stress which ties in with the exact time he had it. The vet has seen him three times since end of October about it.

The bacterial leg infection was caused by going through water on a fun ride that had white foamy scum on the surface. THe horse carried the water in his bandages for over an hour before his legs were washed at the ride and when at home when he had a full bath - not because I thought the water would cause a problem. The infection did not become evident for around 30 hours after and the vet was called and it was treated and cleared VERY quickly.

The splenic entrapment is because his colon is raised slightly higher than most horses so when he has grass the gas from it pushes it up so it gets stuck between the spleen and the gut wall. Unfortunately he cannot have the injection needed because he suffers from 2nd degree heart block and it could bring on a fatal arrhymia. It is 'just the way he was made' and something that I am extremely cautious of. The vet was called out immediately.

The intermittent lameness problem is due to a suspensory branch that was healed at great expense with the use of PRP when a freak accident happened after this (whilst I was at work I might add) which caused a huge response in scar tissue and some calcification to form, and it appears that this has built up within the branch causing impedment which the vet thinks shows as a mechanical lameness i.e. because the scar tissue impedes the ligament in a certain way. He has been seen a number of times over the years and has responded well to rehab every time.

The weight loss started at the previous yard when the Y.O said I was using too much hay for my horse and told me to cut it down (it was falling through the net onto the floor and he was kicking shavings over it). Although we paid £30 a month for ad lib hay we were still told what quantified an 'excess' amount and against my better judgement I started decreasing it. The vet and I have discussed this a number of times and the vet says he looks fit and well.

The horse has put on a lot more weight since the yard move where he (and I) am extremely happy. I have put him on Allen & Page Veteran Vitality and he has responded with a fantastic shiny coat and weight gain which many people on the yard have commented on.

I don't 'claim' to be worried about him. I AM worried about him. I don't need a second opinion for goodness sake. And I don't need you to tell me that I do. I am not unhappy with my vets. I have always found them to be honest, trustworthy, reliable and extremely professional.

And the reason I am not 'doing anything about it' is because I have been advised to wait until Friday.
 
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Leo Walker

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Do you know what? I cant be bothered. I'm sure you make this stuff up to get attention when your bored at work. I now usually avoid reading or commenting on your posts for this exact reason.
 

Goldenstar

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Applecart why it it ok for you to use * to hide the fact you are using an unpleasant rude word yet you button push others who do the same ?

On pin worm they can be a proper pain .
We did five day treatment with panacur guard they were wiped down all round there bums and docks with I think it was ivermectin lotion ( I am not sure if I am remembering that right but will ask my friend, a vet f you want to know ) everyday for a week .
We also disinfected the stables carefully scrubbing down all rubbing points in the stables and the fields .
 

popsdosh

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Im Sorry AC but you are the only person who winds yourself up into this state Why?
We have all tried to help and now are getting abuse back! People have on this thread tred to explain why they might do things differently it does not mean their wrong its what they would do but why if you are going to disagree do you start the thread in the first place as you do have known form on this! Your horses previous numerous problems really have no relevance in the thread so why feel the need to have to catalogue them every time.
I am sorry if you take that personally as its not meant to be . To be honest by the way you react you make yourself a target and people know it . If everytime this happens you end up in tears perhaps you need to figure out the reason because many others dont. Personal abuse is not acceptable on here.
 

Gloi

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The vets that I have spoken to myself (my own vets) another vet from another practice and funnily the vet that actually vetted my horse 12 years ago for me, and a friend who is with yet another practise have all said the same things, there is little point for testing for this and even less point in treating it unless the horse has laminitis. Again all documented on previous posts.

Some 60% of horses over 16 years have it. Make of that what you will. But there are lots and lots of horses that have it with no outward signs. My horse has lost weight but he doesn't have any of the myriad of other symptoms cushings has.
Really disagree with this (apart from the 60% of old horses having it) having seen how much difference testing for and treating Cushings has made to mine and others ponies.
 

Beausmate

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If I were you, I'd be changing vets to one who is a bit more proactive. Waiting until a horse has laminitis before treating the problem that caused it, isn't a good approach. It's like saying 'I'm not going to worm my horse, because he hasn't lost loads of weight yet, so therefore he hasn't got worms.'

I have a skinny, old tb here. He is 23 and has never had the slightest hint of lami. He has had abscesses, lymphangitis, conjunctivitis, rain scald, sores on his heels, weight loss, random coughs and colds and it would appear he is allergic to some pollens too. He also has difficulty regulating his body temperature.

His ACTH levels were only slightly high, but my vet thinks he could have had PPID for years. Still no lami, so maybe I should just leave him to his weakened immune system and weight loss instead of giving him .5 of a tablet a day?

The lab tests are only £27.67, plus the visit and blood sample. It's worth doing, just to rule it out. My vet actually recommends the test for older horses who present with a range of problems, not just feet.
 

FfionWinnie

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Don't get the mentality of being so upset you are crying with worry yet not getting the vet sooner. If you think it's urgent get the vet if you think it can wait what are you worrying about?
 

Pearlsasinger

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I would not be happy if your vet were mine AC.

I have a heavy mare, for whom a bout of laminitis would be fatal.
She was not quite right for a while over the summer, started a hoof abscess in September which kept recurring every time we thought we had cleared it up and got fungal infections on her skin at the drop of a hat.
We tested her ACTH level in summer, they were borderline, we retested in Oct and they were higher than normal. She started on 1 Prascend per day and 6 weeks later, the ACTH was back well within limits. Her abscess cleared up and she has been sound since Christmas, while her skin is vastly improved, too.
I certainly wouldn't be happy to wait until she had laminitis to do the test, it would be too late.
I do hope you get good news on Friday but if I were you, I would insist that ACTH levels are tested. Your vet will presumably be doing other blood tests, so I don't understand their reluctance. Our last test in December came back the next day.
 

applecart14

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Unbelievable that I have received an infraction from H&H forum after being pushed to the brink by some delightful person who suggested that I was making up my horses illnesses because I was bored at work. After all I have been through with my horses in the past and to feel the way I feel at the moment, worried and sick to my stomach with concern for my horse, my response was actually very reserved considering what had led to this comment.

Shameful behavior and a very cowardly way of running to admin (bit playground like) after this person had pushed someone into saying something that they wouldn't have otherwise said had they been not so upset by such a disgusting comment.

It appears that this behavior is not only permitted but rewarded by Admin. What a shame the post wasn't read from the start in context and maybe H&H admin would have a clearer picture of what led to me saying what I said. But they appear blind to all this.

So many people lately have been coming on this forum lately saying "please don't shout at me" or "please don't have a go at me but". It appears this forum is becoming a hot bed for harassment and online bullying and whilst I am not saying I am being bullied I do feel that I have been the subject of some very unkind and unnecessary words in the past. To hide behind a user name and berate and brow beat people and push them into feeling so distressed and troubled is hardly the right thing to do and then to delight and revel in their response and push them into saying something in defence and then report them for doing so - unbelievably sick and cowardly.

I would like to salute those people who have always been there for me and have tried to help me and would personally like to thank them from the bottom of my heart. And for those that are in their little cliques and gang up on people on this forum in the way they do I would just like to ask you to think about hurtful your actions are to others.

The people I know, fellow liveries, friends, relations, partner all say why do I put myself through it on this forum. And I say that I come on here to help others, that is my first and foremost reason. I love trying to help others through my own experiences. I like to read about what is happening with others and try to help. For that I suffer the abuse, but what abuse have I had to deal with!

But I have never had this nasty streak that is so evident with some of the posters on this forum and I thank the Lord that I have been brought up better than this and feel incredibly sorry for those that treat others with contempt because they are so lacking in self esteem that they do this to make themselves feel better.

So I am leaving this forum at last. I wish everyone well, even my persecutors. Please have a long and hard think about how you treat others and get the help that you so evidently need x
 

Goldenstar

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Leaving the forum is a good desision for you.
THinking it's fine to button push someone for using the star button in lieu of the of the letters in a rude word and then to do the same thing yourself a day later really shows a lack of insight.
On a forum like this people are never going to quietly go along with a poster who takes a hissy fit because they take personally when people disagree with them or what they are doing .
I wish you and Bailey luck.
 

AdorableAlice

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I would not be happy if your vet were mine AC.

I have a heavy mare, for whom a bout of laminitis would be fatal.
She was not quite right for a while over the summer, started a hoof abscess in September which kept recurring every time we thought we had cleared it up and got fungal infections on her skin at the drop of a hat.
We tested her ACTH level in summer, they were borderline, we retested in Oct and they were higher than normal. She started on 1 Prascend per day and 6 weeks later, the ACTH was back well within limits. Her abscess cleared up and she has been sound since Christmas, while her skin is vastly improved, too.
I certainly wouldn't be happy to wait until she had laminitis to do the test, it would be too late.
I do hope you get good news on Friday but if I were you, I would insist that ACTH levels are tested. Your vet will presumably be doing other blood tests, so I don't understand their reluctance. Our last test in December came back the next day.
I have no interest in the OP or her horse other than to wish them both health and happiness. I would like to share my experience of cushings.

Please look at this horse, this is an untreated cushings horse, picture was taken after he had just completed 10 months barn rest for a severely damaged hind check. He obviously lost all top line, he was 18 years old when this picture was taken. I am sure you will agree he looked well given what he had been through. Does he look like a sick horse, no he doesn't but he was.



His rehab into a tiny paddock was fraught with problems, 2 abscesses on same side - you try dealing with that with poulticing ! it took four of us to hold him up, then a snotty nose. He was tested immediately and was low level positive. He began treatment with 1/2 a tablet which went up to one and now aged 24 is 1 1/2 tablets daily and wintering very well. I fear the summer as he has LV.

Any horse in middle age plus is worth testing before looking at anything else. It is a very very common and nasty disease that can be managed. Reading through this thread I honestly cannot imagine any equine vet making the claim that a teenage horse does not need testing for cushings.
 

ycbm

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I'm with you on your last paragraph particularly PD. I have friends with a nine year old with a massive score, a ten year old with a moderate score, and a seven year old with a high score. It's no longer a disease only of old horses.
 

AdorableAlice

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I'm with you on your last paragraph particularly PD. I have friends with a nine year old with a massive score, a ten year old with a moderate score, and a seven year old with a high score. It's no longer a disease only of old horses.
I think along the lines of 5 to 10 as prime of life, 10 to 15 as middle aged and 15 plus as veteran. I do totally agree that it is getting ever more common in younger horses.
 

Goldenstar

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From last summer I am testing all my horses yearly when the vets do it for free .
They are all over ten and I think the sooner you know the better .
 

AdorableAlice

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From last summer I am testing all my horses yearly when the vets do it for free .
They are all over ten and I think the sooner you know the better .
Good idea, time ticks away so quickly I find myself forgetting how old the horses and me ! actually are. I still refer to the carthorse and his girlfriend as the 'babies in the barn' but there are now rising 6. In my head they are still the foals I brought up, and the 'young' maxi cob is now rising 10, and the most alarming bit is I am heading for 60. Blooming frightening.
 

Moomin1

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My 16yr old mare has recently started Prascend as she had a slightly high reading however she has no symptoms whatsoever and looks fantastic. No abscesses/infections/lami etc. I'm so glad I do know about it as hopefully now on the Prascend it will prevent her ever getting any of those along with close management. I want her to live as long as possible so for me the test was worth every penny and more.
 

AandK

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If I were you, I'd be changing vets to one who is a bit more proactive. Waiting until a horse has laminitis before treating the problem that caused it, isn't a good approach. It's like saying 'I'm not going to worm my horse, because he hasn't lost loads of weight yet, so therefore he hasn't got worms.'

I have a skinny, old tb here. He is 23 and has never had the slightest hint of lami. He has had abscesses, lymphangitis, conjunctivitis, rain scald, sores on his heels, weight loss, random coughs and colds and it would appear he is allergic to some pollens too. He also has difficulty regulating his body temperature.

His ACTH levels were only slightly high, but my vet thinks he could have had PPID for years. Still no lami, so maybe I should just leave him to his weakened immune system and weight loss instead of giving him .5 of a tablet a day?

The lab tests are only £27.67, plus the visit and blood sample. It's worth doing, just to rule it out. My vet actually recommends the test for older horses who present with a range of problems, not just feet.
I would not be happy if your vet were mine AC.

I have a heavy mare, for whom a bout of laminitis would be fatal.
She was not quite right for a while over the summer, started a hoof abscess in September which kept recurring every time we thought we had cleared it up and got fungal infections on her skin at the drop of a hat.
We tested her ACTH level in summer, they were borderline, we retested in Oct and they were higher than normal. She started on 1 Prascend per day and 6 weeks later, the ACTH was back well within limits. Her abscess cleared up and she has been sound since Christmas, while her skin is vastly improved, too.
I certainly wouldn't be happy to wait until she had laminitis to do the test, it would be too late.
I do hope you get good news on Friday but if I were you, I would insist that ACTH levels are tested. Your vet will presumably be doing other blood tests, so I don't understand their reluctance. Our last test in December came back the next day.
I do think we have to push vets sometimes for some of the more simple tests, if I wanted my horse tested for PPID then I would expect my vet to oblige. To suggest there would be no need until after the horse sucumbs to a potentially fatal illness, is negligent in my mind.
My horse had a bout of intermitant, low level lameness last spring. Flexion test and a couple of rounds of nerve blocks managed to narrow it down to the fetlock (horse was on week 6 of box rest at this stage) and vet wanted to come back again and x-ray as thought it was probably low level arthritis. I insisted he scan the area to check it was not soft tissue, as then he could at least go back out in the field. Vet was unsure, but I pushed and the scan revealed a minute bone chip in the outside suspensory branch. No need for any further investigations, horse was field rested to see if chip would be reabsorbed, expelled or needed further intervention. The rest did the job and horse has been sound since!
The horse in question is now 20, I have had him tested a couple of times since he was 16 for PPID. The first time after a run of abscesses, and the second about this time last year when he got mud fever for the second winter in a row (after never having had it before). Both times he was fine, fortunately. But I'd rather test and he be fine, instead of waiting for him to be ill.
 

Tiddlypom

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The vets that I have spoken to myself (my own vets) another vet from another practice and funnily the vet that actually vetted my horse 12 years ago for me, and a friend who is with yet another practise have all said the same things, there is little point for testing for this and even less point in treating it unless the horse has laminitis. Again all documented on previous posts.
I sincerely hope that AC is mistaken, and that there aren't vets who think testing for PPID, even in elderly horses, should only come AFTER a lami attack. Some CPD should be actioned, if this is the case.

My 16yo mare has been tested for Cushing's since she was a 12yo, after a few niggles. She had a low ACTH at age 12, but next year her levels had doubled to near the threshold for treatment. Because of the rapid rise, coupled with her skin irritations, foot abscesses etc, she was immediately put onto 0.5 tablets per day, which has kept her levels ok til last month. Her recent assay showed a rise to 60, (twice the level it should be), so she is now on 1.0 tablets daily, with a retest due in 6 weeks to see if her levels have dropped back to a suitable level.

Her health has really improved since she has been on Prascend, and she looks fabulous. Alas, she does struggle with the veil and is currently very dopey as she adjusts to the extra prascend, but this will settle down in a few weeks.

I'll get my newish rising 11yo mare tested nest time, too. As other say, it's better to monitor and treat early rather than react to a crisis.
 

ester

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It's a no brainier for me and I never understood either AC's or her vets reluctance to test, I thought about it on her first post about this but made any decision not to go over old ground. I speculatively tested at 19 and 23 during the free period both negative but still be useful particularly this last year when he had to have quite a lot of steroid useage which I was happier doing knowing he wasn't compromised elsewhere
 

AandK

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I do think we have to push vets sometimes for some of the more simple tests, if I wanted my horse tested for PPID then I would expect my vet to oblige. To suggest there would be no need until after the horse sucumbs to a potentially fatal illness, is negligent in my mind.
My horse had a bout of intermitant, low level lameness last spring. Flexion test and a couple of rounds of nerve blocks managed to narrow it down to the fetlock (horse was on week 6 of box rest at this stage) and vet wanted to come back again and x-ray as thought it was probably low level arthritis. I insisted he scan the area to check it was not soft tissue, as then he could at least go back out in the field. Vet was unsure, but I pushed and the scan revealed a minute bone chip in the outside suspensory branch. No need for any further investigations, horse was field rested to see if chip would be reabsorbed, expelled or needed further intervention. The rest did the job and horse has been sound since!
The horse in question is now 20, I have had him tested a couple of times since he was 16 for PPID. The first time after a run of abscesses, and the second about this time last year when he got mud fever for the second winter in a row (after never having had it before). Both times he was fine, fortunately. But I'd rather test and he be fine, instead of waiting for him to be ill.
Just to add, I seem to have contradicted myself there! I realise I had my horse tested after he'd had abscesses/mud fever, so just wanted to clarify that when I said ill, I meant more along the lines of rapid weight loss/laminitis etc...
 

Beausmate

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Any horse in middle age plus is worth testing before looking at anything else. It is a very very common and nasty disease that can be managed. Reading through this thread I honestly cannot imagine any equine vet making the claim that a teenage horse does not need testing for cushings.
I have seen worse, sadly. Elderly horse, no topline, fat pads on hindquarters and shoulders, but ribby, and filled-in hollows above the eyes. It presented with laminitis symptoms and a vet was called. The vet diagnosed laminits, said for the horse to be box rested for a week and given bute. He put the lami down to mild weather increasing the grass growth, no mention of Cushing's. The horse was given a large mollassed feed to get the bute down her and half a haynet to last all night, because you have to starve laminitics, right? Unfortunately the owners had spoken to their vet and the vet said to give her bute for the week then turn her back out, the cause was the grass and that's all there was to it. They weren't going to listen to anyone else, because they weren't vets and therefore didn't know what they were talking about.

Amazingly the horse is still alive.
 

ribbons

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What I find really odd is the claimed vet attitude and advice.
I know I can be a tad cynical at times, but I have never heard of a vet not wanting to attend for a few days when owner concerned, or being half hearted about testing for anything. They are a business, why turn custom down.
I find most vets pretty keen to run any tests they think might help and even ones they think won't if the customer requests it.
All very odd.
 
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