Update..it's NOT ulcers. Could it be hindgut?

[kinnygirl1]

Stanley has spent 2 days in hospital having a full lameness work up and a gastroscope. Basically the vet said his previous ulcers have healed and no new ones have formed and his tummy looks very healthy. He is not lame, his back has been xrayed and given the all clear and his eyes look fine. Whilst I am glad that he doesn't seem to have any medical issues, I am at a loss to explain the sudden arrival of his sharp, spooky behaviour. I was so sure the ulcers were back! Vet doesn't feel there is any more investigation to be done so I am on my own. Wondering if it could be a hindgut problem as he has had gastric ulcers in the past. Anyone any ideas?

Thanks guys.

 

[Kelpie]

Could be that .... Could also be worth looking at diet generally? Or any management changes?

 

[TigerTail]

Def could be hind gut and as he has a history of ulcers I'd try that first. Id do a course of rite trac http://www.kerx.com/products/RiteTrac/


If no difference ID call Malcolm at Equifeast who has been exceedingly helpful with my mare's spookiness

 

[paddy555]

I would think you had to try and rule out the hind gut. I would do a month on equishure (not ritetrac) and, based on my experiences with it, I would expect to see some changes within a couple of week or even earlier to the spookiness but I would still carry on for at least a month. I got changes for a long time and thought I had got there. I was quite happy with the lack of spooky horse it produced but I still continued to use it.
Then one day after 7 months there was suddenly a massive further improvement.

 

[kinnygirl1]

I would think you had to try and rule out the hind gut. I would do a month on equishure (not ritetrac) and, based on my experiences with it, I would expect to see some changes within a couple of week or even earlier to the spookiness but I would still carry on for at least a month. I got changes for a long time and thought I had got there. I was quite happy with the lack of spooky horse it produced but I still continued to use it.
Then one day after 7 months there was suddenly a massive further improvement.

Wow really! I will get some ordered. What the diff between rite trac and equishure? May I ask what symptoms your horse had paddy555. Apart from the spookiness and anxious behaviour, mine looks really well but as he was always a very unflappable chap I just feel something must be wrong.

 

[TigerTail]

Sorry I linked the wrong one - equishure does hind gut rite trac mainly normal stomach

 

[kinnygirl1]

Sorry I linked the wrong one - equishure does hind gut rite trac mainly normal stomach

Thanks tiger tail. Gonna try the equishure first then. Which equi feast product has helped your mare? Is it a calmer or a digestive supplement?

 

[Goldenstar]

He might just be a sharp spooky horse .
I would up work and keep him very very busy .
The best calmer ever invented for horses is hard graft .

 

[kinnygirl1]

He might just be a sharp spooky horse .
I would up work and keep him very very busy .
The best calmer ever invented for horses is hard graft .

I could accept that if he had always been sharp and spooky but honestly he went from being the most laid back unflappable horse ever to spooking and then bronking at every little thing in the space of a couple of months. Got diagnosed ulcers, treated and for about 6 weeks was back to normal, then behaviour started again which is what made me think they were back, but they're not. Feeling confused and frustrated.

 

[Goldenstar]

I could accept that if he had always been sharp and spooky but honestly he went from being the most laid back unflappable horse ever to spooking and then bronking at every little thing in the space of a couple of months. Got diagnosed ulcers, treated and for about 6 weeks was back to normal, then behaviour started again which is what made me think they were back, but they're not. Feeling confused and frustrated.

It's extremely difficult when vets can't find something wrong but upping the work load is at least a cheap way forward when you flung a lot of money and effort at it and got nowhere .
What's the view on why he had the ulcers in the first place ?

 

[Goldenstar]

Just to say I would try a double dose daily of protexin and see if that helps .

 

[kinnygirl1]

It's extremely difficult when vets can't find something wrong but upping the work load is at least a cheap way forward when you flung a lot of money and effort at it and got nowhere .
What's the view on why he had the ulcers in the first place ?

That is a bit of a mystery too, tbh. He lives out and has a fibre only, low sugar starch diet and is a good doer so a low risk for ulcers. Vet found some lameness in off hind which he diagnosed was coming from sacroiliac. He was injected twice and rehabbed with an exercise program and vet has now signed him off for full work. It's possible the ulcers were caused by pain from the sacroiliac injury but no way of proving that as far as I know? The ulcers were on his pyloris if that helps?

 

[paddy555]

Wow really! I will get some ordered. What the diff between rite trac and equishure? May I ask what symptoms your horse had paddy555. Apart from the spookiness and anxious behaviour, mine looks really well but as he was always a very unflappable chap I just feel something must be wrong.

if your horse has gone from unflappable to upset then to me hard work isn't the answer, pain is.

Rowan was in extreme pain from hind gut problems. It manifested in all aspects of his life. He was just about impossible to lead down the road in hand. He would spook at anything and everything. Noise really did it for him. His spooking wasn't just a step to the side as a normal horse would it was head in the air, ears out on stalks, attention totally focussed away from me and no way of getting him out of that state. Training and desensitising did nothing. I found out when I had resolved the problem that he was in fact perfectly trained and had no problems with sensitivity to object out riding.
The gut pain seemed to produce a constant high state of awareness that he hated and couldn't control.

His behaviour everywhere was terrible. In the stable he would be permanently upset, at feed times he would bite and snatch and grab at people. Lunging he stood on his hind legs and came at me. His sides were very sore, grooming difficult and picking up hind legs to clean feet he hated. He also had little respect for people. If you were in his way he simply went over you, fast. No amount of training resolved that yet once the pain was dealt with and he was comfortable I found he loved people and just wants cuddles.

He did however look really well and could go over any surface barefoot so it took a long while for me to connect his behavoiur with a gut problem.

He showed bad behaviour if I walked alongside him (no saddle) but with my arm over his back where the back of the saddle would be and wrapped down over the offside. As he walked I would gently be touching his side with my body as I walked with him. I normally teach young horses to walk along like this and they accept it happily. He kicked, bucked and basically went for me with this. Obviously extreme pain in his sides.

He was an extreme example and in addition to equishure I cut out sugar, I feed alfalfa pellets, copra, salt, linseed and bicarb. He is also stabled at night. By the time he has been exercised in the day and come in for feeds etc this restricts his time on grass. If you have sudden arrival of spooky behaviour does it fit in with grass growth or your grazing routine, field change etc?

I am careful about grass for Rowan.

This is equishure and I think it is the only place you can order it in the UK. I should sit down before you look at the price tag. I would suggest to give it a proper test you would need a large tub. ie 7.2 kg. The amount you feed is dependent on how you keep your horse. ie grain fed/hay fed/ grass etc

http://shop.saracenhorsefeeds.com/saracen-horse-feeds/supplements-other-products/ker-equishure/

 

[kinnygirl1]

if your horse has gone from unflappable to upset then to me hard work isn't the answer, pain is.

Rowan was in extreme pain from hind gut problems. It manifested in all aspects of his life. He was just about impossible to lead down the road in hand. He would spook at anything and everything. Noise really did it for him. His spooking wasn't just a step to the side as a normal horse would it was head in the air, ears out on stalks, attention totally focussed away from me and no way of getting him out of that state. Training and desensitising did nothing. I found out when I had resolved the problem that he was in fact perfectly trained and had no problems with sensitivity to object out riding.
The gut pain seemed to produce a constant high state of awareness that he hated and couldn't control.

His behaviour everywhere was terrible. In the stable he would be permanently upset, at feed times he would bite and snatch and grab at people. Lunging he stood on his hind legs and came at me. His sides were very sore, grooming difficult and picking up hind legs to clean feet he hated. He also had little respect for people. If you were in his way he simply went over you, fast. No amount of training resolved that yet once the pain was dealt with and he was comfortable I found he loved people and just wants cuddles.

He did however look really well and could go over any surface barefoot so it took a long while for me to connect his behavoiur with a gut problem.

He showed bad behaviour if I walked alongside him (no saddle) but with my arm over his back where the back of the saddle would be and wrapped down over the offside. As he walked I would gently be touching his side with my body as I walked with him. I normally teach young horses to walk along like this and they accept it happily. He kicked, bucked and basically went for me with this. Obviously extreme pain in his sides.

He was an extreme example and in addition to equishure I cut out sugar, I feed alfalfa pellets, copra, salt, linseed and bicarb. He is also stabled at night. By the time he has been exercised in the day and come in for feeds etc this restricts his time on grass. If you have sudden arrival of spooky behaviour does it fit in with grass growth or your grazing routine, field change etc?

I am careful about grass for Rowan.

This is equishure and I think it is the only place you can order it in the UK. I should sit down before you look at the price tag. I would suggest to give it a proper test you would need a large tub. ie 7.2 kg. The amount you feed is dependent on how you keep your horse. ie grain fed/hay fed/ grass etc

http://shop.saracenhorsefeeds.com/saracen-horse-feeds/supplements-other-products/ker-equishure/

Paddy believe me, the price tag of equishure is a drop in the ocean compared to what I have spent on vets, drugs, physios, saddlers, lessons and supplements so far and this is my last resort now. Insurance is maxed out and I still can't ride my pony as he is so unpredictable I never know when a bronk is coming. He spooks whenever a car passes, whenever another horse is in the vicinity, if someone pushes a pram or wheelbarrow in the vicinity. He is basically on red alert all the time and it's exhausting. I have hurt my back being bronked off and can't take much more but don't know where to turn as vet had said they can't find anything upsetting him.

 

[JillA]

Do you feed salt? Worth looking here www.calmhealthyhorses.com and considering the mineral imbalance in the grass at the moment, and whether it is high in sugars? Salt as an electrolyte encourages water uptake which can flush out any surplus minerals which are out of balance.
My "red alert" horse responded really well to supplementing with magnesium, but I do know my land is short of Mg, sometimes so long as you have ruled out ulcers a couple of weeks on Magnesium might help to diagnose whether that is the problem

 

[paddy555]

He is basically on red alert all the time .

I used to describe Rowan as being "permanently wired"

what is are describing is so similar to Rowan and I know how desperate you must be feeling. I only put Rowan onto equishure just to see what happened and it was a bit of a shock when I found I had a different horse. The equishure was in fact for my other horse Rupert who spent a week in horse hospital with colic. They couldn't find a cause, didn't make any suggestion of hind gut. After he came home he was so nasty that he double barrelled me with his hind legs and I was lucky to get up without injury. He is by nature the sweetest kindest horse. That shouldn't have happened. I decided something had to be done. It has worked equallly well for him. Good luck.

 

[kinnygirl1]

I used to describe Rowan as being "permanently wired"

what is are describing is so similar to Rowan and I know how desperate you must be feeling. I only put Rowan onto equishure just to see what happened and it was a bit of a shock when I found I had a different horse. The equishure was in fact for my other horse Rupert who spent a week in horse hospital with colic. They couldn't find a cause, didn't make any suggestion of hind gut. After he came home he was so nasty that he double barrelled me with his hind legs and I was lucky to get up without injury. He is by nature the sweetest kindest horse. That shouldn't have happened. I decided something had to be done. It has worked equallly well for him. Good luck.

Thank you for all your advice it really helps. My horse was the sweetest thing as a 3, 4 and 5 year old. I could take him anywhere and nothing phased him, people used to remark on it....I just can't accept that there isn't something making him act this way now. I have ordered the equishure. I really have nothing to lose!

 

[kinnygirl1]

Do you feed salt? Worth looking here www.calmhealthyhorses.com and considering the mineral imbalance in the grass at the moment, and whether it is high in sugars? Salt as an electrolyte encourages water uptake which can flush out any surplus minerals which are out of balance.
My "red alert" horse responded really well to supplementing with magnesium, but I do know my land is short of Mg, sometimes so long as you have ruled out ulcers a couple of weeks on Magnesium might help to diagnose whether that is the problem

Hi jillA. No I don't add extra salt but there is quite a lot of magnesium in the ulcer supplement I feed as a preventative measure(ulcer calm by feedmark) could that be causing an imbalance? Could it really be so simple?

 

[JillA]

Hi jillA. No I don't add extra salt but there is quite a lot of magnesium in the ulcer supplement I feed as a preventative measure(ulcer calm by feedmark) could that be causing an imbalance? Could it really be so simple?

Yes it could - check out the website. With inadequate electrolytes (i.e. salt) there is not enough water in the individual cells, to flush out toxins, and that can make them irritable. There also needs to be a balance between magnesium and calcium AS ABSORBED, and Jenny told us today that inadequate calcium leads to a general skin irritation which is a precursor to conditions such as headshaking. At the very least it would lead to irritability in horses who have problems absorbing enough calcium.

 

[stilltrying]

That is a bit of a mystery too, tbh. He lives out and has a fibre only, low sugar starch diet and is a good doer so a low risk for ulcers. Vet found some lameness in off hind which he diagnosed was coming from sacroiliac. He was injected twice and rehabbed with an exercise program and vet has now signed him off for full work. It's possible the ulcers were caused by pain from the sacroiliac injury but no way of proving that as far as I know? The ulcers were on his pyloris if that helps?

See my thread in vet section ref Teddy (hind gut issues). He is presently uneven behind due to soreness in sacroiliac area BECAUSE he has hind gut ulcers, not the other way round. I'd give another vote for Equishure - we saw an improvement in a matter of days.

 

[kinnygirl1]

See my thread in vet section ref Teddy (hind gut issues). He is presently uneven behind due to soreness in sacroiliac area BECAUSE he has hind gut ulcers, not the other way round. I'd give another vote for Equishure - we saw an improvement in a matter of days.

Hello there - I have been following Teds story with interest because of the similarities with Stanley. Its a bit chicken and egg with the ulcers really isn't it. I always presumed it was stress from the pain of the sacroiliac. Do you think his hind gut ulcers could have been there all along? Wouldn't that have meant that if he still had them, he wouldn't be sound now? Sorry for all the questions. i have ordered the equishure! Fingers crossed!

 

[paddy555]

Hello there - I have been following Teds story with interest because of the similarities with Stanley. Its a bit chicken and egg with the ulcers really isn't it. I always presumed it was stress from the pain of the sacroiliac. Do you think his hind gut ulcers could have been there all along? Wouldn't that have meant that if he still had them, he wouldn't be sound now? Sorry for all the questions. i have ordered the equishure! Fingers crossed!

Hi Kinny girl,
Before I tried equishure I looked at the various ulcer supplements. The main ingredients of them were magnesium and calcium. As I had both of these I mixed my own supplement with both of these and a few other things. I have always fed salt. I also fed (feed) bicarbonate of soda (sodium hydrogen carbonate). The mg and ca helped to a very small extent however they were nothing like the cure. This is of course my horses and my ground/hay/feed conditions which is why the ulcer supplements help some horses but not others.

From what I can see having used if on 3 horses and studied it daily since last Nov equishure changes the digestion in the hind gut. I am not sure that it provides any nutrition but that it changes the acidity in the hind gut and allows it to correct and work as it should. Once the gut starts working the horse appears to be in less pain hence less "red alert". I am using it on a long term basis (unlike "still trying" whose vet is trying a difference hind gut approach).
I hoped that once it allowed the gut to work the gut would then over a period of time start to heal. About a month ago (on it since last Nov) Rowan changed dramatically. He went from the improvements already achieved which brought him to the level of a normal reasonable horse to almost a dog. He no longer tolerated me but he loved me. He wanted to do everything with me. He didn't do his training because he was asked he did it for me because he enjoyed it. It was a very big shift in his attitude. Nothing else changed in his life and it was almost as if he had finally become the horse he was bred to be.

I have no idea if that was due to gut healing. I am still watching and learning.

I suspect that equishure will tell if a horse has a hind gut problem which at least narrows it down a lot. If it didn't produce results in a month I would think the problem could be elsewhere so I wish you luck with that,

It is all chicken and egg. You can see the SI causes pain and therefore lameness but is the SI the real problem or is there something causing the SI problem? It took a while before I realised the horse moved badly due to the gut problem and that was really the catalyst with a lot of knock on effects. That however was on Rupert. Rowan moved pretty well and wore his feet very evenly he just coped with his pain in other ways. Horses adapt and how one adapts is different from another. The fact that he is "sound" doesn't necessarily mean he is totally sound. It could mean that he has found a way of moving that is more comfortable for him, looks sound to you but of course he is compensating somewhere else. I go with their temperament. If a kind horse gets nasty he is trying to tell me something.

 

[kinnygirl1]

Hi Kinny girl,
Before I tried equishure I looked at the various ulcer supplements. The main ingredients of them were magnesium and calcium. As I had both of these I mixed my own supplement with both of these and a few other things. I have always fed salt. I also fed (feed) bicarbonate of soda (sodium hydrogen carbonate). The mg and ca helped to a very small extent however they were nothing like the cure. This is of course my horses and my ground/hay/feed conditions which is why the ulcer supplements help some horses but not others.

From what I can see having used if on 3 horses and studied it daily since last Nov equishure changes the digestion in the hind gut. I am not sure that it provides any nutrition but that it changes the acidity in the hind gut and allows it to correct and work as it should. Once the gut starts working the horse appears to be in less pain hence less "red alert". I am using it on a long term basis (unlike "still trying" whose vet is trying a difference hind gut approach).
I hoped that once it allowed the gut to work the gut would then over a period of time start to heal. About a month ago (on it since last Nov) Rowan changed dramatically. He went from the improvements already achieved which brought him to the level of a normal reasonable horse to almost a dog. He no longer tolerated me but he loved me. He wanted to do everything with me. He didn't do his training because he was asked he did it for me because he enjoyed it. It was a very big shift in his attitude. Nothing else changed in his life and it was almost as if he had finally become the horse he was bred to be.

I have no idea if that was due to gut healing. I am still watching and learning.

I suspect that equishure will tell if a horse has a hind gut problem which at least narrows it down a lot. If it didn't produce results in a month I would think the problem could be elsewhere so I wish you luck with that,

It is all chicken and egg. You can see the SI causes pain and therefore lameness but is the SI the real problem or is there something causing the SI problem? It took a while before I realised the horse moved badly due to the gut problem and that was really the catalyst with a lot of knock on effects. That however was on Rupert. Rowan moved pretty well and wore his feet very evenly he just coped with his pain in other ways. Horses adapt and how one adapts is different from another. The fact that he is "sound" doesn't necessarily mean he is totally sound. It could mean that he has found a way of moving that is more comfortable for him, looks sound to you but of course he is compensating somewhere else. I go with their temperament. If a kind horse gets nasty he is trying to tell me something.

Hello again Paddy555,

Yes I believe my boy is still trying to tell me something is not as it should be, despite the vet pronouncing him sound. He has had steroid injections into the SI so that could be masking an ongoing prob in the hindgut- does that make sense?

Sorry to plague you with questions but can I ask how much salt you feed and is it just ordinary table salt (ie, what you can buy at supermarkets) or a special equine salt? I am just wary of irritating ulcers by introducing salt.

 

[Fuzzypuff]

The thing is that you're going to get lots of responses of suggestions of different things that worked for different horses. If the Equishure doesn't work it doesn't mean you don't have a hindgut problem, just bear that in mind. For my horse Equishure didn't really help very much, the best thing for him has been Equine Science Gastro Plus, but Succeed was also good as was Egusin. There are lots of products out there and I think different ones work on different horses so it is a case of trial and error.

 

[stilltrying]

Hello there - I have been following Teds story with interest because of the similarities with Stanley. Its a bit chicken and egg with the ulcers really isn't it. I always presumed it was stress from the pain of the sacroiliac. Do you think his hind gut ulcers could have been there all along? Wouldn't that have meant that if he still had them, he wouldn't be sound now? Sorry for all the questions. i have ordered the equishure! Fingers crossed!

Yeah it is difficult to know what the root cause is, as we know that stress (and pain) cause ulcers, but also the ulcers cause pain elsewhere. Our horse is not particularly lame to trot on straight tarmac but when he goes uphill it becomes noticeable as he doesn't step thru as much with one hind leg.

The good thing about trialling some equishure is that i dont think it will do much harm. Before we had a diagnosis via the poop / saliva samples our vet recommended sticking him on equishure straight away. Id say his behaviour changed within a matter of days. He'd become so vacant, but after a couple of days on it he started to be interested in yard activities, ears pricked etc. So if you get a result on it then at least you know you are in the right area!

 

[kinnygirl1]

The thing is that you're going to get lots of responses of suggestions of different things that worked for different horses. If the Equishure doesn't work it doesn't mean you don't have a hindgut problem, just bear that in mind. For my horse Equishure didn't really help very much, the best thing for him has been Equine Science Gastro Plus, but Succeed was also good as was Egusin. There are lots of products out there and I think different ones work on different horses so it is a case of trial and error.

Yes you are right. I guess I am just looking at the statisitics really and as a few people have reccomended the equishure I thought it might be worth a shot as the first one to try. Will defo add gastroplus to my list though. I have had that recommended to me too. I feel as if the vet has washed his hands of us a bit so I have nowhere left to turn than other peoples suggestions.

 

[paddy555]

Hello again Paddy555,

Yes I believe my boy is still trying to tell me something is not as it should be, despite the vet pronouncing him sound. He has had steroid injections into the SI so that could be masking an ongoing prob in the hindgut- does that make sense?

Sorry to plague you with questions but can I ask how much salt you feed and is it just ordinary table salt (ie, what you can buy at supermarkets) or a special equine salt? I am just wary of irritating ulcers by introducing salt.

I use ordinary Tesco table salt. Per day Rupert gets 2 x heaped 15ml scoops salt plus 2 very heaped 15 ml scoops of sodium bicarbonate in his feed. He also gets a bicarb drink each night which is 1 x heaped 15 ml scoop dissolved in a small quantity of warm water.

Rowan gets 1 x 15 ml heaped scoop salt plus 2 very heaped 15ml scoops bicarb in his feed. He also gets a bicarb drink each night of 2 x 15ml heaped scoops dissolved in warm water. It is up to him if he choses to drink it.

I offer bicarb water to several of our horses/ponies each night and sometimes they want it, sometimes not. Interestingly they either all want it or none are bothered which suggests the grasss conditions may influence their choice.

Can you relate the steroid injections to your current hind gut problem timing wise? Have you had a long ongoing hind gut problem that the steroid could have slightly improved or alternatively was the hind gut fine and seems to have been made worse by the steroids? Or is there simply no link at all?

Stilltrying suggested her horse had become vacant. Rowan never looked at me, he looked at everything else but me. I didn't realise that until someone pointed it out. If anything went wrong he looked into the distance and as far away from me as possible. If I brought his head round he would instantly look away again. Once resolved he instantly brings his head round to me to sort out any problems.

 

[paddy555]

another suggestion for you would be to consider Donna Blinman (vet) who is dealing with Stiltrying's horse.
I googled Donna Blinman reviews and found this but there are lots of other reviews.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/archive/index.php/t-508361.html

 

[kinnygirl1]

I use ordinary Tesco table salt. Per day Rupert gets 2 x heaped 15ml scoops salt plus 2 very heaped 15 ml scoops of sodium bicarbonate in his feed. He also gets a bicarb drink each night which is 1 x heaped 15 ml scoop dissolved in a small quantity of warm water.

Rowan gets 1 x 15 ml heaped scoop salt plus 2 very heaped 15ml scoops bicarb in his feed. He also gets a bicarb drink each night of 2 x 15ml heaped scoops dissolved in warm water. It is up to him if he choses to drink it.

I offer bicarb water to several of our horses/ponies each night and sometimes they want it, sometimes not. Interestingly they either all want it or none are bothered which suggests the grasss conditions may influence their choice.

Can you relate the steroid injections to your current hind gut problem timing wise? Have you had a long ongoing hind gut problem that the steroid could have slightly improved or alternatively was the hind gut fine and seems to have been made worse by the steroids? Or is there simply no link at all?

Stilltrying suggested her horse had become vacant. Rowan never looked at me, he looked at everything else but me. I didn't realise that until someone pointed it out. If anything went wrong he looked into the distance and as far away from me as possible. If I brought his head round he would instantly look away again. Once resolved he instantly brings his head round to me to sort out any problems.

Stanley isn't vacant but he does look sad, if that makes sense...

I wonder if the hindgut ulcers, if he had them, made his pelvis sore, but them the steroid injections helped the pelvis lameness thus hiding the hind gut discomfort. I could be way off tho, lol! I am so confused with it all. Thank you once again for your advice much appreciated as always!

 

[taica]

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