MHOL
Well-Known Member
Jake is safely returned to his owner but £2000 had to be handed over to buy her own property back even with the police in attendance.
UPDATE-Jake, dun gelding-Missing on Loan
- Thread starter MHOL
- Start date
pedilia
Well-Known Member
Very pleased to hear he has been safely found, disgusting that she had to pay to get him back!!!!!
My boy was stoln whilst on loan, because I could prove he was mine and I had a watertight loan agreement stating that he remained by property, the dealer who had bought him (not knowng he was stolen) had to give him back to me. Although the YO paid the dealer what they had paid, the police had no proof but were sure she was inovled!
My boy was stoln whilst on loan, because I could prove he was mine and I had a watertight loan agreement stating that he remained by property, the dealer who had bought him (not knowng he was stolen) had to give him back to me. Although the YO paid the dealer what they had paid, the police had no proof but were sure she was inovled!
Zebedee
Well-Known Member
Surely that's not going to be the end of it? Why on earth did she hand over the money?
the watcher
Well-Known Member
Generally if property is in dispute and the Police are involved the Police (Property) Act comes into play. This involves the relevant property being removed and held (or an individual agreeing to hold and not dispose) whilst the matter is investigated and a court decides ownership.
If the property were a TV or a car this may be quite straightforward..in the case of a horse the relevant livery costs would potentially outstrip any value quite quickly. Added to that Legal Aid is not available in this case and other cost/compensation issues are very restrictive.
If a stolen horse is recovered from somebody who has purchased it in good faith you then have two options...to offset at least some of their investment or to go to a lengthy court case. If I wanted my horse back I know which I would do, and then take whoever was responsible to the civil court to try and recover any losses.
If the property were a TV or a car this may be quite straightforward..in the case of a horse the relevant livery costs would potentially outstrip any value quite quickly. Added to that Legal Aid is not available in this case and other cost/compensation issues are very restrictive.
If a stolen horse is recovered from somebody who has purchased it in good faith you then have two options...to offset at least some of their investment or to go to a lengthy court case. If I wanted my horse back I know which I would do, and then take whoever was responsible to the civil court to try and recover any losses.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
it's awful she has to part with money for him but I would have done it to she has him back he's safe and lesson learned loaning is a very dangerous thing to do unless you personally know the person and you see thae horse often.
he looks like a lovely boy I am glad he's safe.
he looks like a lovely boy I am glad he's safe.
MHOL
Well-Known Member
Is this the latest horse scam?
Loan out your horse and buy it back if you want access!
Courtney (has allowed her name to be used) replied to an advert requiring a horse for a companion, her beloved Jake had been recently diagnosed with arthritis and therefore his riding career had sadly ended, Courtney thought there may be a use for him for the rest of his life as a companion. She site visited and later it was agreed for Jake to go as a companion, never for ownership to be lost and with access visits when convenient. She did ask for a loan contract but was overpowered at this suggestion. Jake went to Wexham in Slough in Nov 2010, communications and visits were fine for a short while and then there were difficulties with access for 6 months. Courtney, 23 years old, feeling overpowered asked her father to ring to arrange just a visit. Communications were not good and Courtney's father was informed that if they wanted to see him they would have to buy him back. Missing Horses On Loan were contacted and a poster was distributed, we were contacted by the loaner.The loaner informed us "Why would anyone want to take on a horse of that size to sit in the field and do nothing but eat a big round bale of hay in 4 days". "If they wanted to see him they can buy him back by paying for the livery costs" and a figure of £2000 was demanded.
Courtney in her desperation to reclaim her horse and make up for the huge mistake she made in entrusting her Jake to someone else agreed to attend to fetch the horse with the potential of having to possibly pay the £2000. The visit to reclaim Jake was not peaceful, the police were called, claimed it as a civil matter and the only way forward was to pay the money to later that day reclaim her horse. Jake was not near the premises and walked some distance which was the reason so say for an arthritic horse who had been retired from riding work to have shoes on (make of that what you will??) Court proceedings are now commencing for the return of Courtney's money
Companion/Loan adverts
Beware in this case the horse was still alive unlike some cases that we have dealt with and the owner could afford the money at the time she could reclaim her horse before it could of potentially disappeared.
Check them out!!! Contact us, find your local Horse Watch, associate yourself with your horse on http://www.nedonline.co.uk, flag the passport with the passport office that the horse is on loan and the passport must not be changed, keep in contact, if something feels wrong check it out asap.
Beware you might have to buy your own property back!
Loan out your horse and buy it back if you want access!
Courtney (has allowed her name to be used) replied to an advert requiring a horse for a companion, her beloved Jake had been recently diagnosed with arthritis and therefore his riding career had sadly ended, Courtney thought there may be a use for him for the rest of his life as a companion. She site visited and later it was agreed for Jake to go as a companion, never for ownership to be lost and with access visits when convenient. She did ask for a loan contract but was overpowered at this suggestion. Jake went to Wexham in Slough in Nov 2010, communications and visits were fine for a short while and then there were difficulties with access for 6 months. Courtney, 23 years old, feeling overpowered asked her father to ring to arrange just a visit. Communications were not good and Courtney's father was informed that if they wanted to see him they would have to buy him back. Missing Horses On Loan were contacted and a poster was distributed, we were contacted by the loaner.The loaner informed us "Why would anyone want to take on a horse of that size to sit in the field and do nothing but eat a big round bale of hay in 4 days". "If they wanted to see him they can buy him back by paying for the livery costs" and a figure of £2000 was demanded.
Courtney in her desperation to reclaim her horse and make up for the huge mistake she made in entrusting her Jake to someone else agreed to attend to fetch the horse with the potential of having to possibly pay the £2000. The visit to reclaim Jake was not peaceful, the police were called, claimed it as a civil matter and the only way forward was to pay the money to later that day reclaim her horse. Jake was not near the premises and walked some distance which was the reason so say for an arthritic horse who had been retired from riding work to have shoes on (make of that what you will??) Court proceedings are now commencing for the return of Courtney's money
Companion/Loan adverts
Beware in this case the horse was still alive unlike some cases that we have dealt with and the owner could afford the money at the time she could reclaim her horse before it could of potentially disappeared.
Check them out!!! Contact us, find your local Horse Watch, associate yourself with your horse on http://www.nedonline.co.uk, flag the passport with the passport office that the horse is on loan and the passport must not be changed, keep in contact, if something feels wrong check it out asap.
Beware you might have to buy your own property back!
Tinseltoes
Well-Known Member
Very sad and disgusting that you have to buy your own property back.
Zebedee
Well-Known Member
Maybe The Watcher can help us out a bit & explain the terminology & how this was a 'civil matter'? Since when did theft/extortion become a 'civil matter' ? This seems to be a cop out (no pun intended) for any situation that the police really can't be bothered with, or where they can see a way of resolution that isn't going to be massively time consuming & paperwork generating for them. A friend of mine who is not the sharpest knife in the drawer had something stolen from her house. She knew who had done it, & had a witness who had seen the person try to sell the item later on that day.When she went to report it to the police (with the witness) she was told it was a 'civil matter'. Oddly enough when I went back to the station with her & refused to be fobbed off they took statements, went out & found the guy, & got the item back as he hadn't been able to sell it that night.
FAO MHOL - I hope Courtney can remember where she saw the advert. Chances are the publication will still have the details of who placed it stored in their records. If she csn get that info it will go a long way towards proving her case.
FAO MHOL - I hope Courtney can remember where she saw the advert. Chances are the publication will still have the details of who placed it stored in their records. If she csn get that info it will go a long way towards proving her case.
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SpruceRI
Well-Known Member
I totally agree.
If you lend something to someone and they refuse to give it back, that's theft in my eyes.
I bet, that if the horse had been a car, and the loanee had been a garage lending the car to a customer while their own was repaired, the police would be straight onto the THEFT.
Luci07
Well-Known Member
If you read a lot of these threads, you will see what the overwhelming issue is and what we come back to time and time again. There is no legally recognised documentation confirming ownership. Jo Public assume ( as I did) that owing the passport was sufficient. It is not. When the police are presented with a horse theft/dispute over loan they will say its a civil matter - because it comes down to one persons word against the other. Neither can you assume that recipts/livery/vet bills count as evidence. They are not - they are only evidence that you DID pay for or own the horse previously.
If loaning your horse out, you will see that MHOL recommends several actions as safeguards. 1. Notify your passport office that the horse is ON LOAN and not sold. 2. Register horse as "on loan" with NED. If chipped/freezemarked, tell the companies. Tell the loaner you are doing this. It has also been proven with previous threads, that the standard loan agreements really do not amount to much in the case of theft. I would still do it as a back up but the legal bods on here have gone through the standard loans and they do not amount to much.
If it were me I would also ask for references from said loaners vet ( I did for my mare when she went out on loan as a hack) and actually - I would now search on facebook and ask MHOL if they knew the person in question. There seems to be an alarming number of horses lent out as companions that are promptly sold on for meat and unfortunately, this has been the case on this forum on a number of occasions. Realistically if my mare was only fit to be a companion, at 22 and at 16.3 I would not do it unless it was someone I really knew well. Sometimes PTS is not the worst scenario for an elderly horse.
If loaning your horse out, you will see that MHOL recommends several actions as safeguards. 1. Notify your passport office that the horse is ON LOAN and not sold. 2. Register horse as "on loan" with NED. If chipped/freezemarked, tell the companies. Tell the loaner you are doing this. It has also been proven with previous threads, that the standard loan agreements really do not amount to much in the case of theft. I would still do it as a back up but the legal bods on here have gone through the standard loans and they do not amount to much.
If it were me I would also ask for references from said loaners vet ( I did for my mare when she went out on loan as a hack) and actually - I would now search on facebook and ask MHOL if they knew the person in question. There seems to be an alarming number of horses lent out as companions that are promptly sold on for meat and unfortunately, this has been the case on this forum on a number of occasions. Realistically if my mare was only fit to be a companion, at 22 and at 16.3 I would not do it unless it was someone I really knew well. Sometimes PTS is not the worst scenario for an elderly horse.
maisie2011
Well-Known Member
I totally agree - regretfully some people are not 'brave' enough to make that decision or have not made financial provision for the costs involved in putting a horse to sleep and live in the hope that someone else will take that burden.
***BTW I am not suggesting in any way this is the case in this unfortunate event.***
Naryafluffy
Well-Known Member
I found this posted on another thread in New Lounge and actually think it's quite a good idea as far as having proof of ownership, think (note I say think) this is why police are so reluctant to get involved is that proving ownership is actually quite difficult, this pack would go a long way towards proving ownership (or at least evidence of ownership), this was taken from a FB page and judging by some of the wording I would say American, but all very good ideas.
Poor Man's Copyright Equine Proof of Ownership Packet: Put all of your important information such as bill of sale, ID registrations, current coggins, past coggins, vet records, registrations papers, copy of equine passport, health papers, 4 pictures (front, back, sides), picture of you, horse and another person in an envelope. Tape it shut and mail it to yourself.
Once you receive the packet put it in a safe place. You may even want to put it in a large baggie to protect it from water damage in case you are in a disaster. Once you received this back you have a time stamp on the envelope. Do not open the envelope. You have a poor mans copyright on the information inside.
And don't open it - leave it sealed. It's a great idea and easy to do. Make sure there is a picture of you with your horse(s). Then remember to keep with your most important papers. I put mine in a suitcase so I can easily get the suitcase to our storm cellar in tornado season.
If you find yourself in a situation where you have to prove ownership to police, give them the envelope and let them open it. This does not break the chain of custody just in case the evidence has to be used in court. The information should help you take your horse home right then.
(taken from Netposse FB group, October 16, 2011)
I have asked if this would stand up in UK courts/police but no reply.
Poor Man's Copyright Equine Proof of Ownership Packet: Put all of your important information such as bill of sale, ID registrations, current coggins, past coggins, vet records, registrations papers, copy of equine passport, health papers, 4 pictures (front, back, sides), picture of you, horse and another person in an envelope. Tape it shut and mail it to yourself.
Once you receive the packet put it in a safe place. You may even want to put it in a large baggie to protect it from water damage in case you are in a disaster. Once you received this back you have a time stamp on the envelope. Do not open the envelope. You have a poor mans copyright on the information inside.
And don't open it - leave it sealed. It's a great idea and easy to do. Make sure there is a picture of you with your horse(s). Then remember to keep with your most important papers. I put mine in a suitcase so I can easily get the suitcase to our storm cellar in tornado season.
If you find yourself in a situation where you have to prove ownership to police, give them the envelope and let them open it. This does not break the chain of custody just in case the evidence has to be used in court. The information should help you take your horse home right then.
(taken from Netposse FB group, October 16, 2011)
I have asked if this would stand up in UK courts/police but no reply.
This sounds like a good idea, however, wonder if I would trust this important paperwork to Royal Mail !
cally6008
Well-Known Member
Naryafluffy - yep I posted that in NL crossposted from Netposse.
Luci07
Well-Known Member
While that sounds like a good idea - I think the legal bods will point out that all that does is to prove ownership of the horse at that time - another individual could easily say (and they do) that SINCE that time, the horse was gifted/taken in lieu of a debt blah blah blah. This is why the police frequently refuse to become involved. Having everything together safely is no bad idea but still does not demonstrate legal ownership.