Update Lari - Laminitis thread

[Birker2020]

So I've got the blood results back and relieved to say my boy is in the clear.

Insulin resistance test within normal parameters as was cushings.

Very happy. So the plan is to reduce bute further from the one a day he's currently on and to stop the leg icing and eventually the ultrasound and overnight bandaging, increase the hours out at grass until he's out overnight again whilst making the paddock a little larger every day. He went out for 1.5 hrs earlier and he was very good apart from standing on his back legs on the way up to the field. To give him his due it wasn't at me or even over my head, but just excitement so I let him have that one!

Very happy he can return to retirement livery - timescale about a month. Then its horse shopping time again

 

[Sandstone1]

Im so pleased for you and lari!

 

[Birker2020]

Im so pleased for you and lari!

Thank you. It must have been his sore toe all along and the reason he was pointing it.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Yayyyy finally some positive news

 

[splashgirl45]

Great news .. welldone

 

[Kunoichi73]

Great news about Lari!

 

[meleeka]

Phew! Good news.

 

[Red-1]

Fantastic. Good luck with grass. I have one here on 4 hrs a day, muzzled and the other on 2 hrs a day, not muzzled (and he now looks pregnant despite being worked daily). The grass here is mad!

 

[Fjord]

Good to hear!

 

[Goldenstar]

Good

 

[SEL]

About time you had some good news! Very pleased for you.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Well that is good news!

 

[Birker2020]

Fantastic. Good luck with grass. I have one here on 4 hrs a day, muzzled and the other on 2 hrs a day, not muzzled (and he now looks pregnant despite being worked daily). The grass here is mad!

The grass has gone mental! That's a lot of additional work for you Red-1 but sensible by the sounds of it.

The area behind my friends paddock (it's all hers but she's fenced it off) is where he went last time. She's moved her fencing forwards at the weekend again as she's so concerned about her horse so said it would be ideal for Lari as it's very well grazed. So I told the vet this and he said he'd be ok to continue to graze where he was before when we thought he had laminitis as there was literally no sign of raised insulin levels in his blood which means his body is dealing with it fine.

So I'm kind of still playing it safe just in case. So for the 1.5 hrs yesterday he was in the same area he was last Thursday for that hour before the bloods were drawn and this afternoon for 2 hours he will be on half of that he already grazed yesterday and a new ungrazed strip as we moved the fence along a few feet. Still only 12m x 6m though.

I will be over the next two weeks increasing the paddock size to prepare him for going back to retirement.

 

[Red-1]

The grass has gone mental! That's a lot of additional work for you Red-1 but sensible by the sounds of it.

The area behind my friends paddock (it's all hers but she's fenced it off) is where he went last time. She's moved her fencing forwards at the weekend again as she's so concerned about her horse so said it would be ideal for Lari as it's very well grazed. So I told the vet this and he said he'd be ok to continue to graze where he was before when we thought he had laminitis as there was literally no sign of raised insulin levels in his blood which means his body is dealing with it fine.

So I'm kind of still playing it safe just in case. So for the 1.5 hrs yesterday he was in the same area he was last Thursday for that hour before the bloods were drawn and this afternoon for 2 hours he will be on half of that he already grazed yesterday and a new ungrazed strip as we moved the fence along a few feet. Still only 12m x 6m though.

I will be over the next two weeks increasing the paddock size to prepare him for going back to retirement.

What's worse is that Rigs is doing 2 hrs morning and 2 hours night, and BH is one hour morning and 1 hour night, with work in-between. That is a lot of field transfers. Mr Red, sadly, did something to 'improve' the grass in March, he swears it was not fertiliser, but was some other thing to help the grass be robust with better roots.

I had been lightly dieting BH at the end of winter to prepare for spring grass onslaught and had to see him go from waisted to pregnant tummy is a week and a half!

Thank goodness for all weather turnout (more transferring!) and that I have time to work him daily.

You have a great plan, lucky Lari.

 

[Surbie]

That's really good news - hope it all keeps ticking along smoothly. Playing it safe sounds sensible given how bonkers the grass is this year. Our medical paddock was an overgrazed mudpatch in late March. It's now well over 2ft tall.

 

[eggs]

Great news - so pleased that Lari can return to his retirement livery.

 

[Xmasha]

Great news

 

[PurBee]

The grass has gone mental! That's a lot of additional work for you Red-1 but sensible by the sounds of it.

The area behind my friends paddock (it's all hers but she's fenced it off) is where he went last time. She's moved her fencing forwards at the weekend again as she's so concerned about her horse so said it would be ideal for Lari as it's very well grazed. So I told the vet this and he said he'd be ok to continue to graze where he was before when we thought he had laminitis as there was literally no sign of raised insulin levels in his blood which means his body is dealing with it fine.

So I'm kind of still playing it safe just in case. So for the 1.5 hrs yesterday he was in the same area he was last Thursday for that hour before the bloods were drawn and this afternoon for 2 hours he will be on half of that he already grazed yesterday and a new ungrazed strip as we moved the fence along a few feet. Still only 12m x 6m though.

I will be over the next two weeks increasing the paddock size to prepare him for going back to retirement.

Thats great news birker, im so relieved for you, and lari.

That paddock looks ideal, i’d agree with your vets advice, especially having had the test to prove longish grass doesnt affect him and especially after reading a study recently.

They did a test on rested long grass fields, and continually grazed short grass fields - there was loads of data in the study analysed, and the results of the long grass sugar levels V the short grass sugar levels wasn’t that radically different.
The study scientists reasoned this is because all grass has sugar stores at the base of the plant, and longer grass therefore has this sugar more evenly distributed along the entire blade length, rather than packed into a short grass blade. The difference in grass lengths were around 10cm, and 20+cm.


This is different to what the equine world regards about long ‘lush’ grass. I have always wanted to see studies proving long grass to be radically higher in sugar and havent found them. The carbs were not radically different, and even the starch was just 1 or 2 points higher.

So in essence , a horse would get more sugar mouthfulls on short paddocks than long grass paddocks as he has to take say 10 mouthfuls of short grass to fill his mouth, whereas long grass would only require he take 4 mouthfuls. Hence the short grass filled mouth actually would have higher sugar content in it, than a longer grass filled mouth, volume for volume. The study has showed blade for blade the carb levels arent radically different, so volume-wise, 1kg of long grass would total less sugars, than 1kg of short grass.

More the point is, if a horse has an established metabolic issue and proven deranged insulin spikes, ANY carb food is going to induce yoyoing insulin levels. ANY grass intake, free-range, is questionable for a highly metabolic horse. (Its the free range element really, as we can feed long grass in a bucket, 10kg per day, but we know when out grazing theyll eat 50kg, and we cant control grass intake, despite muzzles)

Yet the common mindset, that giving a short grass paddock is best for these types, is incorrect, a per such study results. As each very short blade is where sugars are stored. If the green long tips of grass could be eaten and the horses pulled off before they get to eating the lower part of the grass blade, in effect theyd be getting a less sugary grass meal, than eating a short paddock to the soil.

Also very short grass is ‘stressed’ grass, trying to survive, and stressed plants have the capacity to release toxic compounds to prevent grazers from eating too much of them. One chinese study showed short fescue with a higher mycotoxin count than the longer fescue grass field.
Mycotoxins ingestion has similar symptoms to metabolic disease: gut issues, liver sluggishness, fatigue, and then resulting hoof tenderness/laminitis.
We could easily be blaming sugars in grass for metabolic lami-attacks that could infact be raised mycotoxin levels in short stressed grass paddocks fatties are put on.

I’d like to investigate more grass studies and individual grass species tested to really get a clearer view on grass nutrition. There’s a few out there, and it takes a while to compile all the info into 1 easy-to-read article. I share bits and bobs i learn from studies but will post a thread with all info in one place.
But so far, i havent found supporting evidence that a short grass field is best for a confirmed metabolic horse, if anything, all evidence thusfar suggests that to be unwise.

ETA - must mention as we’re there now, the study showed both short and long grass had surged sugar spikes in june of all growing months tested.

Fingers crossed lari goes from strength to strength and easily transitions back to retirement livery. You deserve a win birker

 

[Hollylee1989]

Along with many on this forum, I'm over the moon for you and Lari.

 

[Squeak]

Really pleased to hear this, you deserved the good news.

 

[Birker2020]

Thats great news birker, im so relieved for you, and lari.

That paddock looks ideal, i’d agree with your vets advice, especially having had the test to prove longish grass doesnt affect him and especially after reading a study recently.

They did a test on rested long grass fields, and continually grazed short grass fields - there was loads of data in the study analysed, and the results of the long grass sugar levels V the short grass sugar levels wasn’t that radically different.
The study scientists reasoned this is because all grass has sugar stores at the base of the plant, and longer grass therefore has this sugar more evenly distributed along the entire blade length, rather than packed into a short grass blade. The difference in grass lengths were around 10cm, and 20+cm.


This is different to what the equine world regards about long ‘lush’ grass. I have always wanted to see studies proving long grass to be radically higher in sugar and havent found them. The carbs were not radically different, and even the starch was just 1 or 2 points higher.

So in essence , a horse would get more sugar mouthfulls on short paddocks than long grass paddocks as he has to take say 10 mouthfuls of short grass to fill his mouth, whereas long grass would only require he take 4 mouthfuls. Hence the short grass filled mouth actually would have higher sugar content in it, than a longer grass filled mouth, volume for volume. The study has showed blade for blade the carb levels arent radically different, so volume-wise, 1kg of long grass would total less sugars, than 1kg of short grass.

More the point is, if a horse has an established metabolic issue and proven deranged insulin spikes, ANY carb food is going to induce yoyoing insulin levels. ANY grass intake, free-range, is questionable for a highly metabolic horse. (Its the free range element really, as we can feed long grass in a bucket, 10kg per day, but we know when out grazing theyll eat 50kg, and we cant control grass intake, despite muzzles)

Yet the common mindset, that giving a short grass paddock is best for these types, is incorrect, a per such study results. As each very short blade is where sugars are stored. If the green long tips of grass could be eaten and the horses pulled off before they get to eating the lower part of the grass blade, in effect theyd be getting a less sugary grass meal, than eating a short paddock to the soil.

Also very short grass is ‘stressed’ grass, trying to survive, and stressed plants have the capacity to release toxic compounds to prevent grazers from eating too much of them. One chinese study showed short fescue with a higher mycotoxin count than the longer fescue grass field.
Mycotoxins ingestion has similar symptoms to metabolic disease: gut issues, liver sluggishness, fatigue, and then resulting hoof tenderness/laminitis.
We could easily be blaming sugars in grass for metabolic lami-attacks that could infact be raised mycotoxin levels in short stressed grass paddocks fatties are put on.

I’d like to investigate more grass studies and individual grass species tested to really get a clearer view on grass nutrition. There’s a few out there, and it takes a while to compile all the info into 1 easy-to-read article. I share bits and bobs i learn from studies but will post a thread with all info in one place.
But so far, i havent found supporting evidence that a short grass field is best for a confirmed metabolic horse, if anything, all evidence thusfar suggests that to be unwise.

ETA - must mention as we’re there now, the study showed both short and long grass had surged sugar spikes in june of all growing months tested.

Fingers crossed lari goes from strength to strength and easily transitions back to retirement livery. You deserve a win birker

Thank you for your detailed reply. Very interesting. This was his paddock today.

 

[Birker2020]

Mr Red, sadly, did something to 'improve' the grass in March, he swears it was not fertiliser, but was some other thing to help the grass be robust with better roots.

My partner wanted to put down some fertiliser in Bailey's paddock a couple of years before she was pts. I said 'no way'. It had gone very sparse for a short time but I knew it would end up being too rich so glad we didn't go that way!

Our grass is of a very good quality, it previously housed a dairy herd for over 100 years, presumably it's very nitrogen rich. It's a blessing in one sense, a curse on the other. I loved my paddock, we always weeded it and poo picked it and took care of it. As long as you strip grazed it there was always enough grass, 14 hrs a day turn out was enough. Over the years on the various yards I've been on I've noticed a lot of liveries don't bother with their paddocks, it's a shame.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Tend to agree with PurBee. If you watch a horse graze, he will walk along nipping the top off the grass. By choice, a horse won't eat the stalk of the grass. If you can move his paddock daily so that he can do this, he will regulate his own sugar intake to a point. Long grass can be a problem, as more gets trampled than eaten. We have this battle every year with our landowner, who likes to 'save' the grass until May and turn out on a green sward. We would prefer to start grazing at the end of March to stop the lush overgrowth. Sigh. Life isn't perfect is it?

 

[Birker2020]

Well he was out for 2 hrs yesterday and 3 today, planning on doing 6 hrs tomorrow and then turning him out overnight Friday around 9pm to get in at 5.30am Saturday.

 

[Highmileagecob]

How is the thrush doing? Have his feet started to come right? I am loving the progress reports, he is doing so well.

 

[tristar]

you deserve a medal, well done

not as scientific as pur bee, very clever that one, but simplistically, food is food, less food means less calories, at this time of year i go the small meals route, out for a breakfast on old unfertilized grass for 1 hour, then to the short paddock all day, then maybe another hour grass, or a small bin of hay, all purely precautionary because the grass at this time of year is so shall we say unreliable, its shooting up in sugar, carbs, and i have some very good doers.

interestingly the cob who is the best doer, has been on a sort of track area and needs to walk a lot to eat, its bare but green but he is just right at the mo

but they all come into the yard at night and it is labour intensive but worth the effort, i don`t feel under pressure to work them hard, but feel its like having to up your game all the time, hard work

when i read about others it just shows keeping on top of things is the way to go.

 

[Birker2020]

How is the thrush doing? Have his feet started to come right? I am loving the progress reports, he is doing so well.

Yes the vet said the thrush had cleared up, must be all the hydrogen peroxide and the dry shavings
He needs a trim but I'm struggling to find someone.

He went out for 6.5 hrs today. His bad leg was very slightly puffy so I will keep an eye on it.