UPDATE - Link between kissing spine & bone spavin

Birker2020

Birker2020

Well-Known Member
Joined
29 October 2008
Messages
23,596
Visit site
Hi. I had the chiro come and take a look at Bailey yesterday and he said he has lots of problem areas. His pelvis had rotated, his axis was dramatically out behind his ears consistent with a fall, and he was sore behind his withers and back of saddle. Most importantly he said he didn't give the impression of a horse with kissing spine and said that he thought a couple of vertebrae had already fused together which I was totally shocked at. He said given chance a kissing spine horse's vertebrae will fuse together anyway. I said that I didn't disbelieve what he said but in that case why did so many people have operations on horses with kissing spine and he said that it is a shortcut, and also that there is money to be made. I was amazed as I didn't know veterbrae would fuse together like that, I know hocks do but not vetebrae.

He looked at my wintec GP saddle and my Wintec dressage and said both had uneven flocking on the panels that sit on the horses back, both saddles had the same appearance in the same place. He suggested getting them reflocked. The dressage is cair - the other is flock. Went to the saddlery shop and they said £103 per air bag for the Cair to be replaced!! However they said if its under 5 years old its in warranty and I actually managed to find the receipt last night and its only 3 years old so I'm having it replaced free of charge. The other one was £70 to have reflocked so I decided to ditch it as I'd only paid £200 for it second hand anyway and buy a second hand lleather GP so I am having a saddle fitting this weekend. I am so nervous as I haven't ridden Bails for over 3 weeks because of the bucking, and I am really worried he will buck with me with a new saddle on his back but there is no real way round it. There is a warm up next door and a show in the next door arena to that so I am feeling a bit apprehensive.
 
The appointment came around quickly
smile.gif


When I was having saddle problems my pony was sore behind the withers and behind the saddle too so that all ties in. The only thing I'm wondering is that both saddles have got the uneven flocking in the same place so I'm guessing it's the horse's way of going that caused this instead of both saddles not fitting right? Perhaps stiff back due to the Bone Spavin? My saddle problems were before the Bone Spavin (the opposite to you) but I often wonder if connected??

Is/when the chiro coming back? Has he given him much time off? I'm so much more aware of how chiro can knock you about since having McTimoney sessions on myself recently
crazy.gif


I think you have done the correct thing getting a saddler fitter out but just wondering you may need to give him a bit more time before getting back on?

Re: axis being out, my pony was v stiff through the neck recently and McTimoney lady asked if he had fallen in field. Obviously I'm not there all the time so not sure but he is v v quiet in field, he just doesn't do running about and getting into trouble. However, he did buck me off just before Xmas (stroppy buck because I held him back and wouldn't let him canter towards fence) and despite landing on my head, my arm hurt more as I held on to the reins - now I'm wondering if the sharp tug down hurt his neck? Not that I have much sympathy for him
tongue.gif
However, just wondering if similar happened to you during the bucking episodes?

Don't really know about the fusing process on the kissing spines but glad chiro thinks your boy is okay, I used to wonder the same about mine and vet/chiro assured me that in their opinion (without x-rays) he didn't have it.

I really hope that the chiro and saddle fitting will get him right for you, Bone Spavin is enough to get used to without the other issues too.

Touchwood, cross fingers etc etc, my 17yo pony's steroid injection is still working, his saddle now fits and the Wintec girth I'm using seems to be doing the trick, he is better (but not perfect) to tack up, schools better and is more relaxed than ever so there will be light at the end of the tunnel
grin.gif


Sorry for the long reply
blush.gif
, good luck and let us know how you get on.
 
I havnt followed this, so sorry if youve already covered this. Do your saddles definately fit? Its just that on more horses than not wintec saddles rise up at the back. This causes a motion like a rocking horse, concentrating pressure on a smaller area. Also, the cair is actually quite hard, it doesnt really move fluently with moving muscles. This could be reason for sore back at back of saddle?
 
Yes, all joints can fuse including the joints in the spine.

I do not particularly like cair, I find it hard and immobile as the panels seem to be over inflated and rock hard. Could you consider a wintec with flocking instead?
 
I would get a vet to confirm and not just listen to a chiro.

strong advise that to be honest. i ended up having to buy a new saddle and it made no difference...physio advised me again surgery saying it was an SI injury i thank god didnt agree and got a second opinion from my vet and he disagreed. i was then referred and i made the correct decision!

its difficult knowing who to listen to and not, i think a lot is on gut but i would always seek the opinion of a vet.
 
There is no joint between the tips of the spinous processes.They should not touch - hence they wont fuse in the same way as the hock will - howeer they may fuse anyway - but the spine needs to be flexable hence fusion is not the aim. I think you should be taking advise from your vet not a chiro.
 
Hi chumsmum. The appointment was booked about 2 weeks ago after having a visit from the physio which didn't seem to make much difference to his comfort. I hear what you are saying about the saddle fitting. However, unfortunately the saddlery shop is at a riding club and they don't do off the site saddle fits. As it is a large venue it is extremely busy and they have three arena's which are usually all taken up with a show. They have shows every weekend so trying to book a slot to test ride a saddle is a nightmare unless you go in the week, and I have had so much time off work with Baileys problems recently that I really can't have anymore off, plus the fact we don't get paid as it is a temp to perm position. Ideally I would like to wait until my dressage saddle comes back from being reflocked so I can ride in that for a week or so before having saddles fitted but its not possible. The chiro thinks that Baileys atlas problem was due to a heavy fall, but he also banged his head coming out of the trailer backwards one day (it is a front unload) but about once every six months I like to unload backwards just in case we ever get blocked in at a show and have no choice but to unload backwards, at least he has practiced it before hand. The saddle uneveness the chiro thinks is due to me as I have a very large prolapsed disc for which I was offered surgery for last month (again- been on the list for months) but with a 1 in 500 chance of ending up paralysed and a 70/30 prognosis overall it just wasn't for me. As for the bucking it never escalated into anything massive because I never pushed him through it. If I fall off with my back it could mean that I would be of work for weeks, I remember when it went last April at work and I had to get a taxi 9 miles home as I couldn't walk to the train station, sobbing my eyes out the whole way. I sat on my hands and knees on the lounge floor in sheer agony and had to go for an emergency chiro treatment. So basically as soon as Bails started bucking I just got straight off. Sorry to hear you have a bad back. Going back to the saddle problems I have - I am sure it has been an ongoing problem for some time, as the last time the fit was checked was probably around October 2007. I just hope that the situation resolves it self well. I long reined Bails last night in the menage and he is so different! His bum is swinging from side to side and his head is bobbing up and down and even his mane has changed direction because his neck is not in spasm anymore! Amazing. I left a voice mail message with the chiro last night to see if it was ok to have a saddle fit on Saturday. He advised to lunge on long lunge rein (which I always do anyway due to possible tendon strain) and long rein, but did not say anything about riding. Thanks for your help chums mum, keep in touch.
 
I have a Wintec GP with flocking but have decided rather than pay £70/£90 to have it reflocked when I only bought it off my mate second hand for £200 to go for a second hand leather GP instead.
 
I think I know the saddle fitting place you mean, a friend tried in vain for weeks to book an appointment there as so busy so understand you not wanting to change it!

The difference in him long reining sounds very promising, the more I think about it, the more it seems his saddle is the problem so I wouldn't worry anymore about KS etc at this point. Nearly every person I know has had problems due to saddles, it really is a minefield.

Sorry to hear about your bad back, don't blame you getting off when the bucking starts, I feel quite vunerable with my back atm and it ain't nowhere near as bad as yours. My brother had similar problems to you and though the operation was a success, his recovery was awful (blood clots caused his lung to collapse, ended up on life support) so as a family, it's put us off back surgery for life!

Fingers crossed for you that he feels so much better that he doesn't react when you trying saddles on, if he enjoys his grub take a haynet and bucket of food to take his mind off it, it worked on mine
smirk.gif


Good luck
smile.gif
 
The chiro has just rang me back to say he should be okay in walk and trot but has strongly advised me to find someone else to ride him in case he does start bucking with my back as I will tense up and make him worse. However if last night is anything to go by I shouldn't worry so much. I was so proud of my boy stepping out and swinging his hips, so obviously happier in himself, I was puffing and panting like an old gal trying to keep up with him behind! Four laps of the school on each rein and I was thinking I should get the wheelbarrow out and get him to pull me along in that - my gosh I was exhausted!
 
Thanks Holly P. I think if he continues to buck I will have to look at a possible xray from the vet to get a diagnosis. I just feel a little uncertain about the kissing spine fusion explanation now someone has pointed it out to me but feel certain the chiro is right in his assumption that the horse is very sore in places.
 
Thanks Glenruby. I think I will get xrays if the bucking continues with the reflocked saddle and leather saddle I am having fitted.
 
I have heard both good and bad comments from Wintec saddle owners. I must admit he has never appeared as comfortable in the Cair as the flocked Wintec but this might be because the Cair is a dressage saddle and therefore I am asking more of him in it. Hopefully I can get a second hand leather saddle on Saturday and try it for a week
 
Firstly, I would not go on the word of a chiro - no matter how good he is. I would always seek the opinion of a vet. the bit about the bones fusing is correct but this is why the surgery is carried out - to shave the bone down so it doesnt touch/fuse. The only way to know if your horse has KS is by xray/scintigrapghy. He actually sounds as though he has a sacroiliac ligament strain - very closely linked with KS.

Secondly, if the horse is in pain, STOP RIDING IT. I just dont understand why people go to the trouble to find out their horse has sore spots, saddle doesnt fit, but then continue to ride the horse.

Thirdly, how on earth can a saddler reflock your saddle without even seeing the horse. I am a saddle fitter and I wouldnt attempt to fit a saddle until I had seen the horse, assessed it, watched it move without the saddle etc. Again, seek the opinion of a good saddle fitter and not a chiro.

Fourth, I dont know which model of wintec you have but if it is the GP500/2000 and the standard dressage they are on the exact same tree so I doubt you would be asking more in the dressage model.

Fifth please get a saddler out to fit the new saddle once you have resolved your horse's pain and physical issues - there is no point getting another saddle to "try out" if the horse is not going correctly to begin with.
 
Ok thanks for your points. I wil ltry to address them in the order you have put them. First the chiro. My vet actually gave me permission to speak firstly to a physio and then when I said I wanted to get a chiro out he was in full agreement as he has been monitoring the horse throughout his bone spavin treatment and believes his problems stem from over compensation of the back muscles due to the spavin. If the chiro had thought for one minute the horse has KS I would have had him in this week to the clinic for xrays. Secondly, I haven't ridden the horse for about three weeks but on the times I rode him prior to this and he was bucking I had to find out whether it was exhuberance due to him being in with the cold weather we had or whether it was a pain issue before I spent lots of money unnecessarily. I rang the chiro today and he has said he will be sufficiently recovered from the treatment he gave him on Tuesday to walk and trot. Thirdly the saddlery shop has always sent their saddles away to be reflocked (whether this is right or wrong) and in the case on the CAIR an air bag is an airbag. It is just being replaced with the one it was sold with so they don't need to see the horse although I will get the saddler to check the fit when it comes back from Weatherbeeta to see if the gullet size is correct and if not I will change the plate as it has an interchangeable gullet system. Fourthly I have the GP 500 wintec saddle and the Wintec GP 500 dressage saddle. When I said I was asking for more in the dressage saddle what I meant is that I only ever use that for dressage tests or schooling which is when I ask the horse to work as a pose to hacking out or going aroudn the club grounds in the GP saddle. If he is sore due to teh bone spavin then he would feel it more in the dressage saddle as that is the only saddle that I ask him to work in. Fifthly the second hand leather GP saddle which I am looking for from the saddle fit on Saturday : the saddler fitter is a fully qualified saddle fitter. She is also a friend who my partner and I know extremely well for many years. I know she will not try to rip me off and sell something that doesn't fit because she will get more money. I trust her implicitly. The horse has never gone better since having the Tildren and joint injections for the bone spavin and the vet is very pleased with him having come out third week in January to see him and said he is fine to jump/compete again. The bucking started afterthat whcih coincided with the bad weather. However I know my horse and knew he was in pain hence the physio and chiro. I knew the chiro talking about the fusing of the vetebrae sounded weird - hence my earlier post when I put that "if that is the case that the spine fuses then why do people have operations on their horses?"

To be honest with you I have heard so much conflicting advice that my head is spinning. I don't know what or who to believe. I am scared for my horse and I am worried about this saddle fit on Saturday but the horse seems so much more comfortable since Tuesday's treatment, the saddle fitter has been warned that the horse may be a little sore, the vet has been notified that the horse was bucking and the chiro was coming out to have a look at him and I am getting the air bags replaced on the Cair dressage saddle as recommended by the saddle fitter and a new second hand leather saddle so I think I have covered all bases. I appreciate your advice however, incidently you are the second person who has mentioned sacroilliac as a possible problem. If the horse continues to buck following a few days of light riding in a new/reflocked saddle then I will ask the vet to come out to talk about xrays. I can assure you of that, I love my horse to bits and intend to do right by him.
 
As you say, you know your horse. If you strongly believe he is in pain, and if his bucking is so out of character I would get the vet out - possibly even another vet from the one who saw the horse originally. I went through 3 vets who told me my horse was fine, he was just a sodding CB. Only the last vet agreed with me that he was in pain and sure enough, sacroiliac ligament strain.

I have seen a lot of badly fitting saddles and a lot of horses with severe muscle wastage from badly fitting saddles. Yes, a lot of them buck due to the uneven pressure etc but the majority will suffer in silence. They may be nappy and incapable of working with a rounded back because of the saddle, but most of them can be ridden pretty much normally. The ones who have really violent reactions are usually the ones who have some underlying problem.

Poorly fitting saddles can cause bad backs, but often the bad back is due to some hind leg injury.

I really do hope you managed to find out what is wrong with your horse, and maybe your saddle fitter on the weekend might be able to help eliminate one of the variables for you. It is very frustrating when you have back/hind leg problems.

Maybe you could discuss a bute trial with your vet to see if your horse really is in pain, or if there is another issue?
 
The spaces between the vertebrae are technically joints and when there is degenerative change, it is possible for them to fuse. There is no joint between the spinous processes, but it is possible for bone to bridge the gap leading to fusion.

I work in orthopaedics and wanted to clarify things, I should have explained it differently.
 
Yes a bute trial is an excellent idea. We were competing in October last year elementary dressage, we have never had a problem with bucking before but then one evening I had a rather intensive lesson where the horse was asked to use his hocks to a greater degree and that set off the already predisposing bone spavin for which he received treatment in early - mid November (joint inj and Tildren by IV). When I was bringing him back into work in late November, December, January he didn't buck at all. Then we had the cold spell and he started bucking during the period he wasn't going out but I wasn't sure if it were high spirits from not going out although he was going on the walker once or twice a day for 3/4 hour at a time. (It could have been stiffness that was causing pain through not going out) Then when the weather was milder he went out and two days later I plucked up the courage to ride him to see if he would continue with the bucking and after 40 seconds or so of sitting on him he went to put in a little buck hence the physio and the chiro. Another thing I have to say is that even the slightest indication of a buck makes me jump right off him whereas a lot of people would try and see if the bucking is really high spirits or pain and would ride a little longer to see (whereas I am not able to for fear of my back becoming worse). The chiro seems to think he should be okay now, but obviously if it is still a problem then my first point of call will be the xrays. The chiro and saddle fitter also seemed to think the saddle problem was more me than the horse due to the large prolapsed disc that I have. I know a lot of horses will suffer in silence and my horse is the type that probably would. Its difficult not to be drawn into the "lets call the vet out" at the first sign of trouble, whereas I like to try and eliminate other possible causes first. It is a bit of a nightmare. I am going to see what happens tommorow. If he walks and trots okay in some different saddles then I will no he is okay and will ask the saddle fitter if she can be almost positive if the saddle fits first before I sit on him to try to eliminate any problems. I am sure he will be find, I am just getting myself worked up about nothing, but I am very anxious I must say - I didn't sleep a wink last night. I don't ever want to fall off and end up lying prone on my stomach sobbing in agony because my back has 'gone' again that's for sure and at the same time I don't want to hurt my lovely handsome boy either.
 
I can understand - I dislocated my left hip years ago and every now and then it pops out. Last year my horse bucked me off (we were in the midst of his investigations and they told me to ride him normally etc etc) and I landed on that hip + got concussion. To this day I still get shooting pains in that hip if I ride too long or in a saddle with too deep a seat, sometimes I lose the feeling in that leg and I have to dismount on the right side as my left hip doesnt swing out anymore.

It is tough if you have an injury and you are trying to figure out if your horse has an injury. I would see if you can get your instructor/confident person to school him and see if he behaves the same with them, then to try and push through the bucks. The other thing would be to do a 10 day bute trial and get the other person to ride him out normally to see his reactions. It was only during this bute trial that we confirmed my horse was in pain, and wasnt (just) a sodding CB.
 
I totally understand the conflicting advice saga, im stuck in one atm but i am listening to my vet instead of physio for the time being....its difficult though as i think people will ...judge is to strong of a word .... but that sort of thing...me for not proceeding with physio at this stage!

do get your vet out, especially if youv been injured recently...!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top