Update on Micro-Managing a fat pony

Nugget La Poneh

Nugget La Poneh

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
2,477
Location
Cheshire
Visit site
Further to my thread here: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?671862-What-am-I-doing-wrong

Pony had a relapse late last week of severe lethargy, and being far, far too clingy. I had to drag him in, and when in, just stood there looking lost. He sort of picked at his nets, but it looked more like out of habit than anything. Poops were being started and finished with brown water.

Called the vet out, she took bloods, temps, fresh poo sample etc. and the only thing that was a concern was the very noisy hindgut. Left him with vet strength biotics and advised colic watch. Called me within an hour to say he had an excessive worm count, and he needed to be wormed ASAP with Pramox.

So despite him having 'clear' worm counts from a send off worming program, it seems it wasn't actually and as a consequence the hindgut was struggling from potentially lowered pH and also toxins from the worms, and the lami was a symptom of this. He was basically suffering from very mild gassy colic/discomfort continuously, with it being worse in the evenings. Even though I rinse his hay thoroughly, it is still slightly fermented because of the warm weather, and this added to his issues. It has also transpired that the favoured probiotic for feed companys (oligo fructo saccharide) is not good for horses that might, or do have insulin resistance (and I needed Valium after doing a check pretty much every 4 hours over the weekend to check he was still upright).

So, much to the pony's delight, he is now out on 24/7 tracked turnout (well, half tracked as he's having to share with another horse, but that's a livery yard politics issue :D), with dry hay. He has to be worked to either a gentle sweat/raised veins everyday for 30 minute minimum, which he isn't enjoying so much as it's mainly lunging at the moment as I can't ride for another week :(

And you know what? In 3 days he is now about 90% sound now on stones (he has a planings turnout as part of his track, and is in boots during the day, none overnight), with only the big ones causing issues. His gut has calmed right down, and he isn't bloating in the evenings. He has stopped being a snapping turtle (very, very bad after worming) and is back to the lovely, cheeky pony he should be :)

And no need for shoes ;)
 
Very worrying about the false worm count but brilliant that you've got to the bottom of it. I remember being rather baffled in your original thread and to be fair this is a rather baffling solution.
 
ester said:
Out of interest OP when was the last time you sent a faeces sample off?
Click to expand...
April, as that's when the yard advises to worm the group paddocks. He was wormed with equimax in October regardless of any counts as that was the rule of the yard I was on, and I didn't have a choice. He normally gets done as routine around Jan/Feb time for tapeworm, but wasn't this year as he was being treated for heaves and the vet felt would possibly be too much in a short space of time with the antibiotics, and other bits etc.
 
Gosh, OP, what a complicated history. Glad you seem to be on top of it now.

I've taken to collecting poo samples early afternoon, and putting them (suitable packaged!) in a 4 pm collection post box. Westgate text me the results the next morning, so I know that the samples haven't been languishing for too long in transit. I also avoid doing worm counts in a heatwave. Wonder if these precautions are enough?
 
Apercrumbie said:
Very worrying about the false worm count but brilliant that you've got to the bottom of it. I remember being rather baffled in your original thread and to be fair this is a rather baffling solution.
Click to expand...

Probably because when I worry, I do a Dr.Who talking at 80mph trying out different ways of explaining, and then it all gets a bit confuddled, although makes sense to me, in my head :D

As for the solution, I am baffled as goes against what I thought was how you do things. He suffered from concussive lami, and so as a consequence is prone to it. However, I have always been able to manage the minor episodes and come back fairly quickly. The issue this time around seems to stem from moving up here with very different grazing, and ultimately routine. I guess it has been bubbling away, but it all came to a head in Jan/Feb time, and just hadn't got better as he was off more than he was right.
It might just be that the worms aren't the issue, just the final straw. But this is the quickest turnaround in terms of soundness over stones he's had, and kinda goes back to my questioning on the last thread that maybe I am over managing the whole thing, and actually grass for him is not the devils food and that maybe less is more for him in terms of managing his lifestyle :)
 
twiggy2 said:
what worms were they?
Click to expand...
To be fair, I don't know, and I didn't ask. She just said the egg count came in at 1900 and he needs to be done with Pramox asap.
Will ask as curious now.

Nothing really came out in his poo (me and the OH have become the Gillian Mckeiths of the horse world), aside from very fine, about inch long worms that one spotted, you found everywhere, but were very easily missed.
 
Well it is quite easy to get a single false low egg count - which is why I don't particularly like them/think that people get given correct advice/instructions/do them frequently enough and I think the risk of not worming on the basis of one low count (as opposed to a series over a season) is too high. However April is long enough ago that he could have acquired that burden in the meantime too.

twiggy they will have been a mix of worm species - they are not easy to differentiate in egg form!

Equimax in the october would have covered for tapes and 'normal' worms but you have no cover for encysted redworms in that plan either. I think your worming plan needs a bit of an overhaul regardless of what a yard suggests - I think owners need to take responsibility to ensure that what the yard is doing is adequate and take action if not.
 
ester said:
Well it is quite easy to get a single false low egg count - which is why I don't particularly like them/think that people get given correct advice/instructions/do them frequently enough and I think the risk of not worming on the basis of one low count (as opposed to a series over a season) is too high. However April is long enough ago that he could have acquired that burden in the meantime too.

twiggy they will have been a mix of worm species - they are not easy to differentiate in egg form!

Equimax in the october would have covered for tapes and 'normal' worms but you have no cover for encysted redworms in that plan either. I think your worming plan needs a bit of an overhaul regardless of what a yard suggests - I think owners need to take responsibility to ensure that what the yard is doing is adequate and take action if not.
Click to expand...

He was having one every 4 months in Norfolk, with consistantly low results. I think in the 3 years he had maybe 2 readings that were higher than normal for him, but still under 500. He got wormed, then tested again.
He has been in his paddock since November last year, and was on another yard with very strict worming for October. Only one other horse has been in his current paddock, and he hasn't been on the same grass since (other horse was eating it down). My logic would be that with 'clear' results all the way through, would be that I wouldn't need to be unduly concerned if I had missed the count in April (which came back as not needing to be wormed), based on past results. As it was, it was clear - but he wasn't done with Pramox in the New Year like normal. The yard routine means that are advised to worm to the schedule (every 3 months pretty much) if they are on group turnout. When on individual, done as you want providing counts are acceptable and done with Pramox or similar for tapes etc.
 
4 months is a long time. For me not to worm my horse I would want to be taking good quality samples every 4-6 weeks during the summer grazing season to be confident about not worming.

This is because worms have an internal clock and are therefore cyclical in when they produce their eggs, such that they are aggregated in the droppings and the chances of getting a clear sample even when there are a lot of worms are quite high. - It is cases like your chaps which has always made me wary of the push towards FEC because I am not sure it is used properly, so although it will help with the resistance problem the risk to the individual horse of having a high, undetected worm burden is not insignificant. Compare the size of sample you take to the size of a horses whole dropping - it is small, compared to what a horse produces in 24 hours it is very small. Ideally when taking a sample you would take several entire droppings and put them in a food blender first, then take a sample. I hope that makes sense as to why your logic was flawed. If not let me know and I will try again!

It is absolutely imperative that you cover encysted redworm over the winter period too.
 
Ester - don't get me wrong, I can see it is flawed now - but I have had him for 4 years, always done the counts at the same time, got pretty much clear results all the time, wormed with pramox when recommended (so the encrysted redworm would be covered?) so had assumed that if something was to be amiss, it would've come up at some point along the way during those 4 years?

I can't be the only owner to do it this way? However, I have learnt now :(
 
Last edited:
You're certainly not the only owner to do it that way, it is a bit of a bugbear of mine as I see a lot of misinformation out there and get frustrated that owners are making scientific probability decisions without really having all the information they need to be able to do so.

Re. the pramox, you said he didn't get the january dose last year as he was clear on FEC but they encysteds wouldn't have shown up so they need to be treated with either moxidectin (equest/pramox) or panacur 5 day guard regardless of counts some time between the end of the grazing season and when it warms up for them to emerge in the spring. In addition if not testing for tape worm these need treating for in march/april and/or september/october time. IMO If you are only treating once (or one of your doses if treating twice) you should use a praziquantel based product (like the pramox) not pyrantel (pyratape/strongid) as there is reported resistance to the latter.

Just as an example, and since I can't do them myself I don't get worm counts done anymore I opt to do equest in december (12 weeks cover and does the encysted), double dose pyratape P in march, ivermectin june, praziquantel/ivermectin mix in september.
Technically there should be another treatment between march and september but the horses are on a paddock at home that is poo picked daily so I think it unnecessary - which is also why I don't get FEC done as by the time you have done the tapeworm and encysted treatments it is only 1/2 treatments missed and possibly not enough time to build up a good enough picture unless you also did counts when doing the tape/encysted treatments anyway.

For your chap has the vet advised doing a second count in a week or so time to check cleared?
 
ester said:
4 months is a long time. For me not to worm my horse I would want to be taking good quality samples every 4-6 weeks during the summer grazing season to be confident about not worming.
Click to expand...

How much do you pay for FEC? I simply couldn't afford to have an FEC done every 4 weeks (60 CHF) for 2 horses

We do an FEC 4x per year and worm for tape/encysted red worms (yard wide policy)
 
I pay 8 quid I think. The yard pays for it and sticks it on my bill so I'm not 100% on the exact figure. I'm always careful to pick tiny bits from all over, probably 15 to 20 pinches from one dropping. I still dont rely on them though :)
 
ester said:
You're certainly not the only owner to do it that way, it is a bit of a bugbear of mine as I see a lot of misinformation out there and get frustrated that owners are making scientific probability decisions without really having all the information they need to be able to do so.

Re. the pramox, you said he didn't get the january dose last year as he was clear on FEC but they encysteds wouldn't have shown up so they need to be treated with either moxidectin (equest/pramox) or panacur 5 day guard regardless of counts some time between the end of the grazing season and when it warms up for them to emerge in the spring. In addition if not testing for tape worm these need treating for in march/april and/or september/october time. IMO If you are only treating once (or one of your doses if treating twice) you should use a praziquantel based product (like the pramox) not pyrantel (pyratape/strongid) as there is reported resistance to the latter.

Just as an example, and since I can't do them myself I don't get worm counts done anymore I opt to do equest in december (12 weeks cover and does the encysted), double dose pyratape P in march, ivermectin june, praziquantel/ivermectin mix in september.
Technically there should be another treatment between march and september but the horses are on a paddock at home that is poo picked daily so I think it unnecessary - which is also why I don't get FEC done as by the time you have done the tapeworm and encysted treatments it is only 1/2 treatments missed and possibly not enough time to build up a good enough picture unless you also did counts when doing the tape/encysted treatments anyway.

For your chap has the vet advised doing a second count in a week or so time to check cleared?
Click to expand...

He didn't get the pramox in the new year because he was on elephant dose antibiotics, ventipulmin and danilon and the vet felt to worm him at the same time might be a bit much all in one go. Poop will be tested again when they are out to pull more bloods for IR, and will get them to test for worms too.
 
Casey76 said:
How much do you pay for FEC? I simply couldn't afford to have an FEC done every 4 weeks (60 CHF) for 2 horses

We do an FEC 4x per year and worm for tape/encysted red worms (yard wide policy)
Click to expand...

Which is why I don't have them done since I lost access to the equipment to do it myself, and why I question quite how fit for purpose they are at time.

I think essentially the suggested dosing rate is 6-8 weeks for a lot of wormers and counts should be at least that frequency.

Frankiecob, good plan :) it is about mitigating the risks and understanding what they are I think, I mostly worry when people don't understand what they are and therefore can't do the mitigation bit or keep an eye on things knowing they might not be fully covered.

ah yes I remember now NLP :) sorry! Seems like vets have it covered now too :) The worms should all 'die' but with a high infestation the possibility of a few 'hiding' and avoiding the wormer rather than being resistant is a bit higher.
 
Firstly I from your other thread your pony is beautiful is he a haflinger? He also looks a good weight in that photo.

With the mild winter this year has been very bad for worms. Also as you missed your encysted red worm treatment the high worm count could have been a result of this. Encysted red worm don't show up in worm counts and once they awaken they become redworms and lay eggs. It could be in April the redworms were "sleeping" as they were encysted, then later on they woke up and started laying eggs.

Additionally if he has been unwell his immunity to worms might not be so strong.

You might also want to be a bit careful with pramox because there appears that there might be a link between Promox and laminitis in ponies that are prone to laminitis. Equest on its own seems to be fine it is the combination wormer that may be troublesome.
 
Last edited:
Just a quick(ish) update:

Since the above, nugz has gone from strength to strength and not one day lame since *frantically touching wood*
His soles have risen, zero thrush, mud fever (his track is pure mud bar the hardstanding) and he's rockcrunching to rival a mustang :)

I don't 'manage' him any more - he's been out 24/7 on his track, fed pretty much ad-lib hay and that's it. Up until about 2 weeks ago he's been relaxing over winter since before Christmas so he's not needed anything. As he's now at boot camp he'll be put back on the metaslim and salt. He's had grass, carrots apples etc. and he's been completely fine.

Even though he's on a grassed paddock overnight at bootcamp, he's being worked 2xday so I think he will be just fine :)

And wormed with no gut issues too :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top