Update on my situation - horse sold as "novice ride"

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Sologirl

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OK this could be long!!

For those who didn't read my previous posts (Disheartened after such a good start) - I bought a horse in mid-October advertised as a "safe and steady horse for novice/nervous rider" and later described by seller as "patent safety" hence his slightly higher price. Tried horse, reiterated that I am not a confident rider and wanted something safe, horse seemed fine at the sellers yards, vetted horse, he came home - all went fine until asked to hack out alone when he spun, napped, spooked at his own shadow. In hindsight when I tried him out originally I should have realised that a man walking by his head the whole time is also "in company" so when asked to be totally alone hacking - he freaked.

Horse was assessed by an instructor who couldn't believe he'd been sold as safe for a nervous rider - he needs a lot of work, schooling and a firm hand.

Informed seller - after a lot of argument she agreed to a refund as horse wasn't as described, this refund was "dependent on the sale of another pony that was DEFINITELY going through, i'd get the money for that one, my horse could be collected this weekend, yada yada" - surprise surprise, the morning the refund/collection was due to take place had a text saying "bank transfer hasn't gone through, will re-arrange for next week" - I asked her when this would take place, smelling a rat - and she accused me of hassling her, insulted my riding, told me to leave her alone, never contact her again, take it up with the guy whose horse it supposedly was (she was just selling on his behalf AKA hiding behind him and her responsibility stopped with falsely advertising the horse, telling me that we'd make a great partnership and taking the cash out of my hand). Managed to track down this other guy (in Ireland) who told me to take it up with her!! Classic buck-passing and I've not heard from him since (shock!!)

Phone Trading Standards and have lodged a case which is still ongoing - I have plenty of evidence that this seller has spun me a huge yarn and it's not an isolated case!! I had him up for sale at a massive loss as he really isn't what I wanted and what I thought I'd bought, but have since decided that I can't lose that sort of money and I'm going to have to hang onto him, at least until the spring. One viewer said that she'd have been surprised if he was even 5, let alone the 6 he was supposed to be.

So instead of the nice steady hacking horse I hoped for, I now seem to have a green baby, even greener than I believed (I know he was inexperienced in the school but had been told he'd hacked for miles and miles with his old owner and knew that job inside out).

So...I need a plan of action. He is a lovely little guy without a bad bone in his body, but I am aware that I will almost need to go back to the beginning with him - I was planning to let him have the winter just being a horse, plenty of handling, ground work, bonding etc and hacking in company ONLY, but would it be worth getting him schooled ASAP or giving him a little more time just to find his feet? He's perfectly happy where he is, calm in the stable if he's brought in alone, fantastic to deal with on the ground and I really don't want to ruin him! I admit this is all new territory for me as I wanted an uncomplicated hack lol.

This has been a nightmare from start to finish so friendly advice would be super!! Best things to do with him? Lunging? In-hand walks? Long-reining? (All with instruction) Send him away for schooling? He's going to cost me a small fortune on top of being hugely over-priced (he's changed shape dramatically in the 6 weeks I've had him, filled out and his saddle doesn't fit him, possible schooling fees, etc) so I'm really hoping it'll all be worth it. Or should I sell him before I make things worse??

If anyone would like to know who NOT to buy a horse from in Scotland unless they want something the complete opposite of its advert I am happy to PM you lol. I feel like I've aged 10 years in a matter of weeks - so any advice would be great.

If you got to the end of this you deserve a blooming medal and a giant slice of cake!!
 
Bless you, you have been through the mill! Turn him away for winter or even just until new year, start over in the spring, with someone who can show you how to restart him. Don't rush him, take your time. If he is sound and well natured maybe you will have a very nice horse at the end of it :)
 
If he is as green as you say, it would probably benefit him to have an experienced rider schooling him once a week or more. You can either have someone come out to where you are, if you have a usable arena, or send him to a pro yard. That would also make him less green. In the meantime, I personally think it is better to keep them in the routine of doing things with you. They can come in, do a bit of work, be away from their pals, and then go back out and all is fine. Most of the horses I have worked with have benefited and improved much more quickly when their owners have done something, groundwork, whatever, several days a week than when the horse would be sitting on its arse until I rode it once a week or fortnightly. If you don't want to ride, groundwork is fine.

I don't think now is the best time to be selling horses but it is possible. If his *only* issues are his greenness and the fact that he doesn't hack alone, then he should be perfectly sellable. The latter can be fixed by more mileage, as a lot of green and inexperienced horses are reluctant to go out alone. But you will probably have to sell him at a loss, as he was sold you as a more experienced, schooled chap than he actually is and training certainly increases the price of a horse.

PM me with the seller. It would be good to know who it is so I an avoid and advise others to do the same, if need be.

Edit: Turning away as per Arizahn's post wouldn't hurt him, but I think if you are keen to sell him, it's probably not the ideal option. I would think that a youngster who's been nicely schooled through the winter will be a more inviting prospect to people than one who has sat in a field.
 
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If you otherwise like him, make him into the hacking horse you want.

Really good hacking horses, who behave for a novice nervous rider, are extremely rare. Plenty of horses who are great to hack for a confident competent rider who they trust though! The horse maybe DID hack well alone with an experienced rider at the dealers. It takes very little to crush their fragile confidence about hacking alone.

Gain his trust amd respect on the ground. Become the leader he needs for confidence out alone.

Taking him everywhere and any where out alone inhand. Initially lead, then longrein. Build his confidence going new and scary places. Show him it's ok to go out alone. Once you're both confident, start hopping on for a short ride and build up.

Learn the best way to deal with his panics and naps. They will die out quickly once they're correctly dealt with.

Your problem is really really common. Horses behave totally differently with nervous novices compared to competent experienced riders, so much so that their behaviour can be unrecognisable. There is a reason that older, been-there-done-that horses are recommended for novice riders by the jaded and cynical ;)

It's not irretrievable though and being good to hack alone can be taught.

Where abouts in Scotland are you?
 
id be thinking a stint at a schooling yard, make it clear that you want said horse to concentrate on hacking alone, would it be more worth your while doing it say over the xmas period so it benefits you? you would be saving on hay/straw/feed so you could off set this, as well as giving yourself a break over the busy period. Make sure you go and see the horse worked, and you ride it yourself too if you opt for this option.
 
If i were you, i would find someone local, experienced & recommended, to come & work with him & you over the next 4 weeks. Ask them to take him back to basics, lunging, long reining, quiet hacks & gentle basic schooling. Ideally they should come 3 or 4 times a week. I would then turn him away for 4-6 weeks from early Jan before getting the same person back to start him again.

I agree with Arizahn, if he's got a nice temperament & is well put together & sound, he will probably make you a really nice horse & will be worth the time & investment put in now.

Good luck.
 
As he is a nice horse i'd be inclined to persist with him but getting lots of help - pretty much your current plan really. The only other thing I can think of is to look for somebody who is an experienced and confident rider but with a safer older horse and do a kind of temporary swop/two-way share. They get the challenge of helping bring your boy on and you get your confidence developed on something safer.
 
Sologirl said:
So...I need a plan of action. He is a lovely little guy without a bad bone in his body, but I am aware that I will almost need to go back to the beginning with him - I was planning to let him have the winter just being a horse, plenty of handling, ground work, bonding etc and hacking in company ONLY, but would it be worth getting him schooled ASAP or giving him a little more time just to find his feet? He's perfectly happy where he is, calm in the stable if he's brought in alone, fantastic to deal with on the ground and I really don't want to ruin him! I admit this is all new territory for me as I wanted an uncomplicated hack lol.
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I have read all your previous posts but not commented before as I haven't felt I had anything to add. The above does say alot about how you think of the horse and it does sound like he could be good. It sounds basically like he is a very very green baby who doesn't know what on earth he is supposed to be doing. First off it sounds like you have done the right thing getting your instructor involved. I personally wouldn't send him away for schooling as thats just another change for him. You have said before that you are a decent rider but just a nervous hacker (?). With that in mind, a decent instructor behind you, and the decision made to keep him at least until spring, I would take all the help you can afford to get. Lots of ground work will be incredibly beneficial so that he can build a bond with you and learn to trust you. My first horse was terribly nervous to hack alone and I often used to fall off when she span and had to get off frequently to get past things! That said once we had built up a bond and she was a bit older she would do anything for me. Walking out inhand is very under rated and I walked miles with my youngsters before breaking in. Even better is long reining but start by his head. I would only hack out in company if you are happy to do so - don't scare yourself. If you are happy to hack in company try to get alongside the other horse as much as possible so he is not just following but has a clear view ahead and try a bit at a time to get his head slightly in front....half a head or so. If your instructor feels he is just green I would try to put in the work. I honestly would not be surprised if he had been sat on only a handful of times before you bought him....... If you think of it from that perspective and his view of the world it might help you understand his nervous. Wow cake if you got all that!!!! Good luck whatever you decide.:)
 
Rubbish place for you to be - I do feel for you!
I've had horses forever and used to work with racers and problem horses and my last 1 tested me to the limit! I honestly think it took 18months for us to "bond" and me to not regard doing her as a chore> I can honestly say though that I do love the bones of her now though and she'll be with me forever! :-)

Ok so assuming money is no object look at him as a person. If he's a nice chap and as you say quiet in the box and nice to handle then these qualities are worth their weight. Confidence can be acquired.

So we had a very novice rider at our yard who was sold a "bombproof" cob who could spin or stop dead like nothing on earth! Several falls later she had lost her confidence and he was up for sale but like your guy you couldn't ask to meet a more genuine horse - they just weren't a great pair together at the time. So anyway we chatted and she took him off of the market and got a sharer for him who now virtually loans him (lady at our place then took me with her and we bought a real bombproof coblet for her but I appreciate this is probably not an option for you). Novice rider now even able to have some lessons on her green chap as sharer has done a sterling job of convincing him that life isn't so bad.

Is this an option for you? Or do you have a confident rider who would take him out for you? My girl was an ex racer and had only ridden in a string before I got her so was a loon to hack out alone at first. I'm very confident alone though as always rode my old boy by myself so within 2 weeks she was happily strolling out alone.

Or can someone recommend a good trainer to help you? We have a fabulous "voodoo" man at our yard who does real back to basic long reining with them and gets them going out happily by themselves - could you find someone like that? (if you fancy a holiday to Wiltshire with him you'd be very welcome) :-)

Anyway good luck - and as said don't be pushed into rushing things. Find the right people to help you and him (and they aren't always the most expensive) and just enjoy getting to know him. A nice personality is worth so much x
 
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If you want him to be a bombproof hack then do all of the things you want to do ridden but on the ground.

I would start off with in hand walks as it will be easier for him then to see you as 'leader' and start looking to you . Once you have his trust that way then move to long reining which will give him the confidence to go in front of you and is more similar to being ridden.

If you have someone who can then walk with you I'd progress to that with your 'walker' gradually dropping further and further behind until you are solo.

I'm currently going through this process with a couple of my youngsters as I want them to be confident hacking before I start doing any schooling with them.

Good luck and good on you for sticking with him and giving him a chance :)
 
You have two choices really either leave him or work on him

Personally I would leave him as he is and contact the lady again to say that she was the agent for the horse and it is her details that Trading Standards have been alerted to therefore you will be chasing her for the money that you have proof (if indeed you do) that this has happened to others and that you will be treating her as if she was a dealer and excercising your rights accordingly

If you work with him and make him an infintely better horse with the trading standards case ongoing what is to say that the case will go your way, you get a refund and the dealer will end up with a better horse to sell funded by you

I'm not sure from your post whether you have given up on returning the horse but if you have then I would send him away for the schooling he needs and see him as a long term investment

Good luck with it :)
 
Firstly can i appluade you for holding hands up to your limitations and your needs. Im another who thinks if he is good on ground and sound he could well turn into a nice animal that will benefit from investing time and money. again i would spend time showing him life from ground but get a good well reccomened instructor to work with you both in saddle. Keep us updated in how you go and a piccie?
 
jhoward said:
id be thinking a stint at a schooling yard, make it clear that you want said horse to concentrate on hacking alone,
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This ^^^

It’s the one stipulation I made when I sent my girl away for backing and we’ve never looked back. Your chap is so much further along so it probably wouldn’t take more than a few weeks. It would be a good investment if the horse is otherwise what you want.
 
joelb said:
This ^^^

It’s the one stipulation I made when I sent my girl away for backing and we’ve never looked back. Your chap is so much further along so it probably wouldn’t take more than a few weeks. It would be a good investment if the horse is otherwise what you want.
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If you do this, make absolutely sure you will be able to go there and work with the horse before bringing him home and will be available for ongoing support. A good trainer SHOULD be able to school the horse so it is ready for you but, as many people have said on both threads, many horses react significantly to the situation they are in. On a more regimented professional yard, ridden by a competent trainer, he may slip right back into being a gem but YOU need to know now to produce that result when he comes home. This is actually why I prefer to do this sort of work wherever the horse is going to continue living as there can be so many variables - feed, turnout, yard routine, regular handling etc - that affect the horse's state of mind.
 
TarrSteps said:
If you do this, make absolutely sure you will be able to go there and work with the horse before bringing him home and will be available for ongoing support. A good trainer SHOULD be able to school the horse so it is ready for you but, as many people have said on both threads, many horses react significantly to the situation they are in. On a more regimented professional yard, ridden by a competent trainer, he may slip right back into being a gem but YOU need to know now to produce that result when he comes home. This is actually why I prefer to do this sort of work wherever the horse is going to continue living as there can be so many variables - feed, turnout, yard routine, regular handling etc - that affect the horse's state of mind.
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This absolutely. I think much better for him to stay with you & have someone experienced come regularly. No extra disruption for him & you get to learn & see his progress first hand. I hope it works out for you both.
 
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HazyXmas said:
This absolutely. I think much better for him to stay with you & have someone experienced come regularly. No extra disruption for him & you get to learn & see his progress first hand. I hope it works out for you both.
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Double ditto. There is no easy short cut, like sending him off for 6 weeks schooling, because the issue is your partnership. He'll most likely hack like a pro within a week, WITH pro, but that doesn't help you much. Having someone come to you and work with both of you will be fat more useful in the long run.
 
Make sure you keep a record of all costs and make it clear to anyone who comes that the horse was sold as suitable for you, and why it has not been.
If you have to pay £100 or £500 to get it going, then that should not be your cost, let the dealer know what you are are paying, and that ALL costs will be theirs.
I too agree with having someone coming to you, and allowing you to do all handling and tacking up etc, you can warm pony up then she can get on board and show you what what the pony CAN do.
keep it simple, maybe you can only do one thing every lesson, but each lesson is a one step on the staircase towards a higher level.
 
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HazyXmas said:
This absolutely. I think much better for him to stay with you & have someone experienced come regularly. No extra disruption for him & you get to learn & see his progress first hand. I hope it works out for you both.
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This

I would keep him at home, get someone very confident to hack him. If I recall correctly you were getting on fine in the school? Just because others now say he's very very green doesn't mean that he'll be any different in the arena than he has been with you already. So get lessons in the arena to build up a partnership.

I'm sorry you've been let down. I had a similar experience with my first horse. I was a teenager sold a safe 5yo. Turns out he was a 3yo extreme napper. The moment I realised I had been had, was a daunting one.

If I recall correctly, the seller writing on the receipt "not seen in traffic" screams dodgy to me. They must have known there was an issue. Or am I mixing this up with another thread?
 
Kallibear said:
If you otherwise like him, make him into the hacking horse you want.

Really good hacking horses, who behave for a novice nervous rider, are extremely rare. Plenty of horses who are great to hack for a confident competent rider who they trust though! The horse maybe DID hack well alone with an experienced rider at the dealers. It takes very little to crush their fragile confidence about hacking alone.

Gain his trust amd respect on the ground. Become the leader he needs for confidence out alone.

Taking him everywhere and any where out alone inhand. Initially lead, then longrein. Build his confidence going new and scary places. Show him it's ok to go out alone. Once you're both confident, start hopping on for a short ride and build up.

Learn the best way to deal with his panics and naps. They will die out quickly once they're correctly dealt with.

Your problem is really really common. Horses behave totally differently with nervous novices compared to competent experienced riders, so much so that their behaviour can be unrecognisable. There is a reason that older, been-there-done-that horses are recommended for novice riders by the jaded and cynical ;)

It's not irretrievable though and being good to hack alone can be taught.
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Totally agree with this
 
MrsD123 said:
Make sure you keep a record of all costs and make it clear to anyone who comes that the horse was sold as suitable for you, and why it has not been.
If you have to pay £100 or £500 to get it going, then that should not be your cost, let the dealer know what you are are paying, and that ALL costs will be theirs.
I too agree with having someone coming to you, and allowing you to do all handling and tacking up etc, you can warm pony up then she can get on board and show you what what the pony CAN do.
keep it simple, maybe you can only do one thing every lesson, but each lesson is a one step on the staircase towards a higher level.
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Definitely on the cost, since you have an ongoing claim. I can see the reasoning in turning the horse away on this point alone but then there could be the argument you've decreased the value of the horse at that point, so it's really no win. If there is a chance you will end up with the horse to keep or to sell you might as well at least start with the work you need to do, keep careful records, and see how it all pans out.

Definitely ask around about who you get to work with you. Make SURE the trainer will get on (there are a surprising number of people who advertise working with difficult horses as a speciality but won't get on!!) and will be available to you on a schedule that works. (I quite often walk out with horses I've been hacking the first few times the owner rides, or we switch half way or similar. Again, the trainer shouldn't just get the horse going for him/her and hand it back, they should make sure it goes for you, too.) Weather may not work in your favour for the next few months but you can at least get going with it.

Good luck.
 
One of my horses is perfect to hack alone once she knows the area and has built confidence leaving the yard. Once she's happy with this she can go new places with no problems but as soon as I move her she refuses to leave the new yard and her hacking alone problems start again. I would therefore recommend you have someone come to you to work towards you being able to hack your horse, yourself, in the areas you will want to go. Tarrsteps helped with my horse on our latest move as I wasn't well enough to ensure she hacked consistently enough alone to get past her problems. It really helped to have TS with me when I rode her myself for the reasons outlined above, no point a pro being able to do it if you can't and no point having a horse that is confident hacking alone in an area you'll never go.
 
Yep sorry amymay, I don't think I replied to your PM? Honestly, my head has been up my backside since this all started - I haven't known whether I was coming or going, let alone the poor lad!!

Thanks so much for all your support and advice - I think it's definitely worth keeping him at home for now, especially with Christmas coming up and the possibility of snow, taking him to yet another new place probably isn't the best idea right now. I'll be enlisting the help of experienced people! Gosh this is a far cry from what I thought I'd be doing with my new horse - but I'm keeping everything crossed that it'll work out OK in the end. x

Just replying to your PMs now lol...
 
Sologirl said:
Yep sorry amymay, I don't think I replied to your PM? Honestly, my head has been up my backside since this all started - I haven't known whether I was coming or going, let alone the poor lad!!

Thanks so much for all your support and advice - I think it's definitely worth keeping him at home for now, especially with Christmas coming up and the possibility of snow, taking him to yet another new place probably isn't the best idea right now. I'll be enlisting the help of experienced people! Gosh this is a far cry from what I thought I'd be doing with my new horse - but I'm keeping everything crossed that it'll work out OK in the end. x

Just replying to your PMs now lol...
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Oh, no - I didn't mean it like that. Was just wondering the other day how things were going x
 
Leaving the dealer thing aside, I bought my new girl at the beginning of October. When I went to test ride, she hacked out perfectly by herself on the buckle end. We've also gone out with a friend of mine on our own, friend riding/me walking alongside, and swapping half way. Although she was a little less relaxed than when schooling at home, she was still very good.

I tried to ride alone down our little track last night, and she was clearly unhappy about it. It's me. I'm not very brave out hacking and I know I'm communicating that to her. She didn't do anything terrible but was on her toes and looking at everything like a giraffe. It scared me, so we went 20 more steps and came home with me hoping we'd stay in walk! We did, but only just!

I know she can do it and I know it's me. Just got to find a solution! I think it will involve calmer for me and her but might wait til we have more of a bond and go back to accompanied hacking for now.

Sounds like it's the same for you OP - I hope you and your boy can get it sorted out. Might start a new thread on it, as I'm not sure of the best way forward myself!
 
I've ridden many horses for people in similar situations - you are certainly not alone!!

In one case, the owner bought a cob type who had done loads of hacking - photos and videos to prove it. She hacked him when she viewed him, good as gold.

When she got him home she found being on a strange yard with a strange horse to be somewhat more daunting than anticipated. So she fell back on the advice of fellow liveries, most of whom were not much more experienced. They suggested a few weeks of taking the horse around the fields in company, which went fine despite the rider's nerves.

Until she tried to turn left out of the farm gate. The horse was having none of it. He had accepted the farm rides as 'home' and sussed the new rider out enough to know she did not have the confidence or conviction to lead him into new territory. All it took was one day of him turning home - an option he had literally never even been aware of previously - and it was a done deal. She soldierd on a bit but it actually made the situation worse.

Luckily, it wasn't hard to fix. I hacked the horse out 2 days - first very anxious, second much better - then the owner came out and WATCHED him go all the places he 'wouldn't' go. Then she rode him in those areas with me watching, offering tips. A couple of weeks in we had expanded to roads and she had set practice routes and exercises to do in between. I also suggested a move because, frankly, being on a yard where everyone else was too anxious to take advantage of their great hacking was not helping!

Don't assume it will necessarily take an epic journey to sort this out. find someone who gives you confidence and use that until you build up a bit more of your own.
 
When I bought my girl, also in Scotland, she was sold as being quiet to ride, hack, used in a riding school etc and when I tried her she seemed fine, admittedly she seemed a wee bit non plused by everything but she was only 5 so it's not unusual I thought. Got her home, fed her up a bit and then the problems started. She didn't seem to want to accept the contact in any way whatsoever, would run in trot, canter transitions were impossible and were just faster and faster trots. And then the bucking started. I put this down to me being a hopeless rider! Her breeders name was still in her passport and I contacted them just to see if they had any pics of her as a foal etc. turns out she was only properly backed a couple of weeks before she came over from Ireland and that was only a few weeks before I bought her. She wasn't being naughty or bad, she just didn't understand what I was asking. So my ideas of taking her to shows this summer went out of the window and I just treated her like the 'baby' she was. I spent time lunging and lomgreining, getting her to respond to voice commands etc. gradually progressed to riding her and now walk and trot are properly established and we are just starting canter. I'm taking it slowly and I'm not even sure we'll compete next year at this rate but the point is that I wouldn't have missed all this for the world. Yes she wasn't what I thought I was buying and had I known how little she had done I would probably never have looked at her. But I have found the whole thing so rewarding. I've put absolutely no pressure on me or her to do anything other than at our own pace, if we spend another 6 months getting canter right, who cares? We'll get there in the end...I really hope you find the same enjoyment and satisfaction as I did.
 
Thanks so much everyone. Horsebenny - this is similar to my lad, I have a suspicion now that he hasn't been backed all that long!!

Spookypony, you'll need to empty your PM inbox, it's full and I can't reply :) x
 
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