Update on the saddle woes. I'm not convinced. Am I being silly? What Would You Do?

charlimouse

charlimouse

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A bit of an update following this thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=543544.

Harry went to the saddle fitter today, and he thinks the Ideal Impala is essentially fine, but he has put more flocking in the middle of the panels and hammered down the flocking by the gullet to give a little more room. He says to use just a poly pad, without his gel pad. TBH I am not convinced. Saddle fitter also mentioned he may need the tree narrowing, which goes competely against what my physio said (Physio thinks the tree is already too narrow and he needs a wider one :confused:). However my physio is not a saddle fitter, but it is clear that the saddle has made Harry's back very sore, so now not sure what to do :confused:. I guess I will try it and see, but I have a very strong suspicion after being ridden a couple of times in it we will be back to square 1. it was interesting that the saddle fitter asked me why he had lost so much muscle behind his shoulders. It wasn't until I pointed out how the muscled had developed along the spine behind the wither, creating the illusion of a bigger dip.

This fitter is one I have used for years (and was originally recommended by the above physio), and sorted all my previous horse's saddle issues (which were very major) so he does know his stuff, but the horse is telling me the saddle isn't right.

I guess I will try the saddle as it is, and if Harry becomes sore again (it has taken 2 weeks off for the bruising to go!) get a second opinion. Question being who do I trust to get a second opinion from as the saddle fitter I use is widely regarded as the best around (it is a 90 minute drive for me to get there!)? I suppose this is the problem, we can't be experts in all areas, hence we pay 'experts' for a service, but if you aren't and expert yourself how do you know they are doing an 'expert' job :confused::rolleyes:?
 
Go with your gut - if you think it's wrong, personally I'd get another saddler to check it for a second opinion as so much could go wrong! Don't think you're being silly!
 
How wide is the saddle?
I personally think any healthy big horse even if it is a TB should be at least a medium to medium/wide. My 16.1 TB is a generous MW. He is a healthy, well muscled horse but he is not exactly a cob!
 
Are there any fitters in your area that use the Pliance Saddle System? That would give you an acurate reading of any pressure spots and the fit.

The physio would have covered saddle fitting and coupled with anatomy knowledge should be well placed to advice. There are quite a few therapists who offer therapy and saddle fittings/checks; might be worth contacting one of them?

Good luck, it really can be a minefield.
 
probably totally unrelated to your horse but this was happening with Micah for over a year before I found out he had PSD, never showed any lameness or even stiffness in the hinds. Physio would say saddle too tight around the withers but I knew it wasn't at all.
However my vet said it is a fairly common thing to happen with early psd/hock problems especially if they have over developed muscle just behind the saddle. seems they compensate

also I knew it was 'work' that was causing it because when he had several weeks off when I had surgery the muscle built back up, as soon as he was in work it went again, which I guess from physios point of view proved it was saddle, when there was no other symptoms at that time
 
TPO said:
Are there any fitters in your area that use the Pliance Saddle System? That would give you an acurate reading of any pressure spots and the fit.
Click to expand...

I would second this if you can find someone who does it.

Or will your physio speak to saddler/ vice versa? If they recommended, I imagine they have a good working relationship and could work together to get the right solution?
 
i feel your pain re saddle woes! I am still trying to find one that fits me and my mare and i am getting extremely disheartened!

I think that maybe your saddler is fitting your saddle to your horses new shape. If there is atrophy around the shoulder/wither area then your horse may appear to need a narrower saddle to fit that atrophy rather than fit to allow that muscle to re develop.

Maybe suggest a wider tree and pad the atrophied area out with riser pads so you can remove them as your horse re develops muscle. Either that or don't ride, do lots of top line building lunging etc, get him to build that muscle himself (or herself) then fit a saddle to him.

Good luck :)
 
Another who feels your pain, I'm having saddle nightmares as well, two well regarded master saddlers have looked at the saddle and come up with completely different views on the fit!

All I can say is if you're gut feeling is that its not right then there is no harm in getting a second opinion :)
 
Trust your instincts! get a second opinion or even a third and then make your own decision as to which option is best for your horse.
 
Can I join the saddle woes club?

I bought my mare a new saddle last year and having issues with several others, granted it was only a kent and masters but we're still having issues around the wither :( Mctimmoney person has said this is likely to be the saddle still :( Had saddler out said only way to get a better fitting saddle is a new style he designed his self as got alot of so called awkward horses like mine, shame new sadsle is over a grand :(
So not sure what to do myself, whether to get second opinion but then they could say that current doesn't very well either :( although obviously it's not due to issues still (not saying it's a bad fit as everyone says it looks fine etc just perhaps not as comfy as some other make) or whether to try completely diff type of saddle etc.
I have however just bought a ecogold pad so not sure whether to use that for now and see if it helps :(
 
Get a different saddler.

My third Master Saddler told me the saddle fitted. So why did the horse turn her bum on me everytime she saw me coming with it?

The McTimony lady said muscles okay, but not brill. Horse was in and out of work due to lameness, so put the muscle issue down to that, but decided that the horse knew best whether it fitted or not :cool:

Different saddler. Different saddle. Different horse - or at least in her response to the new saddle. No more bum turning. Moving well.

I didn't like the second saddle, but my horse did, so that's the one we had.

Now I have a saddler who finds saddles that fit my very fussy mare (the horse certainly lets me know when she doesn't like the fit!), and which fits me as well :D. Bridlepath International, but I don't know if they go up to Yorkshire.

Good luck!
 
Completely agree with MrsMozart. Go with your gut feeling & what the horse is telling you, not what the saddler is saying.

Had similar situation recently; got a new saddle for my mare, fitted by a qualified saddler & supposedly ideal for her. Within a couple of weeks she was behaving completely differently, so behind the leg and resistant, but I persevered as had been told the saddle was right for her. After a couple more weeks I went back to my old saddle and she was instantly back to her old self, much more forward & elastic, and has continued to be so. Luckily the saddler was very good and refunded my money.
 
I had my new mares saddle reflocked by my saddler who comes highly recommended and I've used happily for a while. There was something not 100% right with her afterwards, nothing bad and I put it down to her being a typical stroppy mare but the next time I jumped her she slammed the brakes on and I have an arm with plates and pins so I would say go with your gut, I wish I had because I'm convinced it was the saddle
 
Firewell said:
How wide is the saddle?
I personally think any healthy big horse even if it is a TB should be at least a medium to medium/wide. My 16.1 TB is a generous MW. He is a healthy, well muscled horse but he is not exactly a cob!
Click to expand...

The saddle is a meduim. The physio has said from the first time he saw him he would expect him to finish up being a mw to w once he has muscled up.

wench said:
Have you tried thermal imaging on his saddle. This may help work out saddle fit?
Click to expand...

Nope, but think it might be a good idea :)!

TPO said:
Are there any fitters in your area that use the Pliance Saddle System? That would give you an acurate reading of any pressure spots and the fit.

The physio would have covered saddle fitting and coupled with anatomy knowledge should be well placed to advice. There are quite a few therapists who offer therapy and saddle fittings/checks; might be worth contacting one of them?

Good luck, it really can be a minefield.
Click to expand...

I'm planning on looking into both pliance and thermal imaging. Does anybody have any experiance of either? What is the difference, and which is best?

soulfull said:
probably totally unrelated to your horse but this was happening with Micah for over a year before I found out he had PSD, never showed any lameness or even stiffness in the hinds. Physio would say saddle too tight around the withers but I knew it wasn't at all.
However my vet said it is a fairly common thing to happen with early psd/hock problems especially if they have over developed muscle just behind the saddle. seems they compensate

also I knew it was 'work' that was causing it because when he had several weeks off when I had surgery the muscle built back up, as soon as he was in work it went again, which I guess from physios point of view proved it was saddle, when there was no other symptoms at that time
Click to expand...

Will bear it in mind if i'm still having problems!

millitiger said:
I would second this if you can find someone who does it.

Or will your physio speak to saddler/ vice versa? If they recommended, I imagine they have a good working relationship and could work together to get the right solution?
Click to expand...

Physio has a 3 month waitlist, and only does clinics, as won't come out as far as me for just a couple of horses. Saddle fitter is in competely the opposite direction, and also doesn't travel as far as me (it is a 90 min drive)!

wench said:
Charlimouse - which bit of Yorkshire are you in? Is it N Yorks?
Click to expand...

Classed as North Yorkshire, but I am pretty much in the middle, about 20 minutes from York in the Selby direction.

PooJay said:
Maybe suggest a wider tree and pad the atrophied area out with riser pads so you can remove them as your horse re develops muscle. Either that or don't ride, do lots of top line building lunging etc, get him to build that muscle himself (or herself) then fit a saddle to him.

Good luck :)
Click to expand...

This is what Physio is recommending, and alternate riding a lunging in a pessoa.

Thanks for the ideas and thoughts guys. I rode Harry in the saddle today and he was no more or less resistant than normal :o. Although he didn't seem sore after (I gave his back a bit of a poke :rolleyes:), there were only sweat marks in the hollows behind the shoulders, and no sweat marks anywhere else along his back. Which makes me think that some thermal imaging/pliance testing will probably be the best way forwards to help find out exactly where the pressure is. As mentioned above any thoughts on either of the 2 methods would be apreciated!
 
If your after a second opinion I use Karen Moxon she is near Holme upon Spalding Moore, so shouldn't be too far from you, (I think she used to work at R & R).
I found her very good she fitted my mare who's a very awkward shape and she even lent me girths and pads etc until mine arrived so I could start riding.
 
My mare has recently been sore round her withers and it was because she had actually muscled up on her back so she was actually more toned and the saddle was therefore a little wide and therefore rocking back and forth. This may be similar to why your saddle fitter thinks he needs a narrower saddle. My mare is a big 17hh ISH and she is currently MW but is veeriing more towards medium as she gets fitter! This is a bit counter intuitive to me but my saddler showed me her template against the templates that the saddle makers give out!

My saddler (who is very reputable) also highly recommends prolite pads - he says the pressure tests on them are remarkable. Have you considered riding with one of them to see if it helps?
 
charlimouse said:
This is what Physio is recommending, and alternate riding a lunging in a pessoa.
Click to expand...

This is what i'm having to do :rolleyes: is abit of a pain for planning comps esp if you want to do two in a week and have a lesson etc :rolleyes:
Anyway I just had a flatwork lesson and instructor actually let me ride in her dressage saddle, c went alot better in it :) so I may be heading down the route of two diff saddles :)
 
Supanova said:
My saddler (who is very reputable) also highly recommends prolite pads - he says the pressure tests on them are remarkable. Have you considered riding with one of them to see if it helps?
Click to expand...

I have tried the prolite pad (in fact I own 2!) as a previous horse had one with her jumping saddle, but with Harry it just makes the gullet too narrow and makes the saddle pearch when I have tried it in the past. Basically the physio said he needs a pad that willl pad up the hollows, but that leaves the gullet free, as that is where he is at his widest.
 
One of the memory foam options? There are a couple out now - none are cheap but they're all lovely and good "every day" pads, too.
 
Thermal imaging does work... Showed my saddle did not fit horse at all, and it was bridging. There is a chap in hull that does it now. He looks like he's fairly new on the Market, but can get you website details?
 
may be a good idea to try a saddle with a wider twist than an Impala. However, finding saddles with wider twists is very difficult due to saddle makers' love of rider comfort over horse comfort. Your photos remind me of three of my horses (TB x WB). They are all TB where the points of the tree lie and WB (wider) at the base of the wither. Have been told to fit them at the widest point and then pad the gaps.

Good reading:

http://advancedsaddlefit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Advanced-Saddle-Fit-Website-TreesRev2.pdf

http://advancedsaddlefit.com/saddle-fitting/subpage/

http://advancedsaddlefit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Advanced-Saddle-Fit-Website-Measuring2.pdf

It would be great if all saddle fitters showed us the actual trees of the saddles they were placing on our horses' backs (and charging us thousands of £ for) so they could prove that the saddles they were selling were actually suitable for our horses.
 
Quote from one of the links in the above reply:

The key to good fit is understanding the match between the geometry of the tree, the shape of the horse’s bearing structure, and the basic physics of the back in motion.
Though glossed over by the conventional “seven rules of saddle fitting,” it is vitally important that the tree fit well at its neck, where the bars run parallel to the wood rails.
A mismatch between horse and tree at the base of the withers may create a range of serious problems for the horse in motion.
The cushion the panel provides between tree and horse is relatively thin at the base of the withers. Bars and rails that lie at the wrong angle for a particular horse can bruise muscle and inflame connective tissue around the horse’s spine.
The effects of a stricture here often get worse when the horse tries to engage his back correctly.
In consequence, the horse may be reluctant to use his back properly; he may rush or bolt in anticipation of pain, or show resistance in other ways that manifest discomfort. Worse, he may just quietly suffer.
 
There are brands and fitters out there who understand that narrowing the twist for the rider is not in the best interest of the horse - the saddles I fit, and there are others I'm sure, tend to have medium to wide twists, so fit our mainly wide equine clientele :).
 
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