'Uphill'

B

Bossanova

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General ramble for the day, can you tell I'm bored?!!

Lots of people comment that a horse is uphill/ put together uphill/ needs to work more uphill. Great, uphill is good.
But then since when has uphill become a neck set on high? Surely uphill means the horse is carrying weight on the hindquarters and lightening the forehand.....
So many modern warmbloods seem to be bred with necks set ridiculously high to give an optical illusion. People think this is correct and certainly the horse is more able to work poll high. But watch these horses and there's no lightening of the forehand.

Grrr, really annoys me!!

I will shut up now
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know what you mean Boss!! Hattie has a typical TB neck which is set on fairly low and she finds it difficult to work "uphill" at the moment. However the more she propells herself forwards from behind the more she is lightening in front and in a month or so i think she will be much more "uphill" than she has been - no optical illusion here. Shame that dressage judges at intro and PN are looking for warmbloods with huge paces and high head carriage - i dont stand a chance until i can get H more "uphill" than she is now!
 
I know- it must be really hard in the space of 4 1/2 mins to asses whether a horse is working truly correctly, as well as judging all the other things. However, a flashy horse will always create the illusion of working properly. Usually these are horrid to ride if they havent been produced well yet they still win.

Give me my flat, boring mule anyday- she's light and a pleasure to ride!! Maybe dressage should involve the judge riding the horse as in showing.... *runs away and hides*
 
I tend to find the more uphill horses tend to be fixing themselves more and not 'connected' properly.

Connection is way more important imo and the carriage develops from there...
 
I totally agree, we have seen a couple recently that look like they would be great in a carriage and almost giraffe like. Some judges are marking them high even when really tense and unbalanced but other judges do recognise they are not correct lets hope judge training teaches what to admire and mark highly. This is very difficult because if they invited a horse that is getting good marks and is not correct I think the owner would not be happy.Lets just hope judges realise that connection is the way forward, I know our trainer teaches this way.
 
Its such a shame especially as Hattie is very light and works well with light paces (for an ID X TB) but because she's more "strung out" - neck wise and not uphill she constantly gets "on the forehand" and "not working from behind" comments and get 6s and 7s throughout where in places she deserves 8s.
 
I agree. My share horse Cookie is a "flashy warmblood" type and has a high-set neck. He is however a bugger to ride forwards properly from behind and into a proper connection, he tends to draw up his neck and back off from the contact. He is also usually on the forehand quite a lot until I can work him into achieveing that lightness and connection from behind. However I reckon if I went and did a prelim test, rode like a complete numpty and just made him "look pretty", I'd still get a decent score... just because he "looks" the part!
Then again, isn't that the point with dressage, it's just an optical illusion unless you get a judge that really knows their stuff and can look past the warmblood type "built" for dressage and see how well the horse is actually working?
Gosh can you tell I've been doing too much jumping recently, I seem to be going off dressage!!
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well i hope dressage isnt just an optical illusion
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surely because the judge can see you properly for 4 and 1/2minutes they should be able to see through the flashy paces? i guess this isnt the case though. I understand that in the showring its the case of good showmanship and showing even a badly schooled pony/horse off well - but the judge has their eye on atleast 15 ponies so you can sort of forgive them. Why in dressage do they still go for flashy types rather than those that actually work properly ( i know i have a LONG way to go with Hattie but i know that because she is an irish horse rather than a warmblood she'll never have the help of big movement and large expressive paces)
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obviously there is nothing wrong with a flashy horse that is schooled well
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Ok, you know i don't have a clue - but from a eventing perspective, it's not like you get that many flashy warmbloods, and more TB, TBx types, have I been missing all the fancy dressage horses at events?
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There seem to be more and more warmbloods out eventing now - especially at intro and PN - ive noticed more and more recently. Certainly at the intro champs there were loads of huge moving warmbloods!
 
That's a bit crap then.
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You've had some really positive feedback from judges in the past, sure some more will love Hats in the future!
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Thanks BB2 - i think we've got to the difficult stage - the teenager stage (we went through it for a couple of months with fiddler) where he tried to flex his muscles and see what tricks he could play! Dressage wise she's doing exactly the same on less of a grand scale! i think by next season we'll be away (well im hoping anyway! hehee!)
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Nah I think I'm just getting a bit disillusioned with dressage at the mo seeing as I'm not allowed to do any with Cookie, don't mind me!
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When I was dressaging my mare (only unaffiliated prelims) I got a few really bad marks, a lot of middling ones, and a couple of really good ones. The bad ones were obviously the judges who took one look at my badly-built (straight legged, long backed, short striding) mare and instantly disliked her thinking that she couldn't do dressage if she tried. The high marks I got though really praised her and marked her well for her paces - not the freedom and stretch but for the regularity and correctness, especially of the trot. She has the MOST fantastic spanking working trot and the judges who marked me well overall, tended to give Maiden high marks for her trot. So obviously there are some judges that can see a good, correct pace when one presents itself, although obviously there are still some judges who just see a carthorse like mine and probably don't bother watching the test other than the first centre line! Maiden was always so easy to ride in trot, because the pace was just "there". And you really couldn't find a horse built more downhill than Maiden if you tried, her neck is set pretty much onto her knees!
Cookie tends to get averagely good marks from whoever is judging, but when he works properly and engages he's more than capable of winning novices and getting placed at elementary. Although I suppose there's a difference there as I was doing unaff with Maiden, whereas Cookie's owner is doing BD with him. And Cookie, as opposed to Maiden, is difficult to ride as although all the paces are there (not just the trot like Maiden), I have to really work to get them correct, rhythmic and working forwards and off the forehand.
I do see why people prefer jumping though, it's just so much better to compete against something that can be judged properly (pole up/ pole down type thing!) - I never thought I'd say that I prefer jumping!
 
Haha it must be ranting day today! One of the liveries on my mum's yard copped a rant about coloured horses this morning. (before anyone gets the wrong idea, I dont dislike any colour of horse its just that people are sometimes so blind to hideous faults just because of a horses markings!)
Yes I entirely agree with you Boss!
Another one that makes me chuckle/frown is the 'teenaged' horses in H&H that are advertised as potential ........!
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In my honest opion, you have to look at German training scales; relaxation, contact, FORWARD, Rhythmn, balance, engagement etc... then you start to get good carriage, build on building muscle to support, then you get power, then you get consistency, then you can get the rest...blah blah!! I have a warmblood who is NOT easy to keep together and keep uphill but when you do , you know you have it..as elevation comes into force too, the ab muslces are showing supporting the back and a shortening of the frame upwards... there is no bulging of the jowel and hocks way back in Narnia!!! That is my perception of it anyway!!!
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I see what you mean. Shad is a welsh D x TB but she has a TB neck and paces. Our comments recently are that she needs to engage her hindquarters more - which we are working on and hopefully she'll become lighter on the forehand and more 'uphill', but she'll only look uphill if she actually is. In the last prelim we did there were some really flashy warmbloods and I thought we had no chance, so I was gobsmacked when we won - maybe the WB's weren't as correct as they looked and the judge could see through it.
 
I know exactly what you mean - people think 'uphill' means its neck is set on so high that it cant possibly go 'downhill' anyways!!

To me a good example of a horse built uphill is one that has a good backend, and nice long front legs, with a well set on neck (not too high and not too low!)

I like to imagine (!) that Archie is built nice and uphill (excuse my mum in the picture - its about 4months old aswell, so he looks much better now!):

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