Urgent advice needed - 6 dogs potentially homeless in 3 weeks

Montyforever

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 April 2009
Messages
5,706
Location
Kent
Visit site
I live in a block of flats with a shared garden. 3 years ago all of the tenants got together and decided to ask for it to be changed into a "dog friendly block" its owned by a housing society so we had to all write a letter saying we supported the decision to change it into a dog friendly block. A guy from the housing society came out and spoke to us (it was us asking originally due to me being agoraphobic and having a dog to help me get out and about) and sat there in front of us and signed the paperwork to change it into a dog friendly block, as all tenants were happy with the change. He also did us a dog contract for Barney a few months later.

We all had letters saying that we were now allowed dogs. So a few months later we took on a rescue greyhound who is loved by everyone in the block. 3 other tenants also got dogs and we've had no problems in 3 years and no complaints.

A couple of months back the grass cutters refused to cut the grass as there was dog poo in the garden, they then reported back to the housing society and we received a warning letter. This is all the fault of one tenant who doesn't have a dog contract for her dogs. The rest of us signed a contract containing the details of the individual dogs but were never sent the copies we requested.

We received a letter today stating that this block is not a dog friendly block, never has been. It has 3 pictures of poo in grass (so could theoretically been taken anywhere!) and says that we have 3 weeks to rehome our dogs or face eviction.

Of course we will be going to the headquarters of the society first thing Monday and explaining this and asking them to look into it in more detail, but it kind of feels like the axe has already fallen and i have a horrible feeling its already done and nothing will change their minds
We would never have gone out and got a dog from a rescue without having the pet contract in place first, he's lived here problem free for 3 years and there's also my neighbour who recently lost her husband and her dog is all she's got. She will be totally alone if she has to rehome him and i don't know if she will get through that :(

If anyone has any advice or ideas please please let me know, this is a desperate situation 6 dogs are on the line here. Barney will not cope going back into kennels and the thought of having to take him back there just makes me feel physically sick. He doesn't even like being shut in a room let alone a kennel :( I may have someone to look after him short term but it doesn't help the 5 other dogs. 3 weeks to find them all good homes is impossible, we will fight this but i just feel like its fighting a loosing battle already ...
 

Aru

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 December 2008
Messages
2,353
Visit site
Has anyone talked to the repeat offender about not cleaning up her dog ****?
I would fight it as well you have signed agreements.

I would also consider discussing with the neighbours an offer to cut the grass in the shared garden as well as a compromise...and start posting any left poos back throught the offenders postbox.:)P )

Typical that one person ruins the whole agreement for everyone
 

Montyforever

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 April 2009
Messages
5,706
Location
Kent
Visit site
Has anyone talked to the repeat offender about not cleaning up her dog ****?
I would fight it as well you have signed agreements.

I would also consider discussing with the neighbours an offer to cut the grass in the shared garden as well as a compromise...and start posting any left poos back throught the offenders postbox.:)P )

Typical that one person ruins the whole agreement for everyone

Yeah, you just get a mouthful of abuse and told that she picks up everyone elses which is rubbish! Post box idea sounds like an idea!!!
The problem is we never got a copy of the contracts and im looking everywhere for the letters but not found them yet. So don't think ill have a leg to stand on unless we get the hard evidence, know the name of the guy that came out to change the block.over so hoping if we get in direct contact with him he can confirm its a dog block.
 

Fides

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 August 2013
Messages
2,946
Visit site
Unfortunately with there being dog poo there you have breached the terms of the agreement and there is nothing you can do. If there were 3 piles if dog poop, I assume they had been there a while. If it is the same neighbour you could have challenged them, or reported them for not adhering to the terms. People have overcome fines by having the poo DNA tested, which could prove who breached the terms, but that option has passed now.

It's not good but they were doing you (as a block) a favour, and if you (as a block) can't keep to the terms, then the dogs will have to go. That's what contracts are for - to protect both sides. If there had been no dog mess, they wouldn't have had a case.
 

Montyforever

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 April 2009
Messages
5,706
Location
Kent
Visit site
Unfortunately with there being dog poo there you have breached the terms of the agreement and there is nothing you can do. If there were 3 piles if dog poop, I assume they had been there a while. If it is the same neighbour you could have challenged them, or reported them for not adhering to the terms. People have overcome fines by having the poo DNA tested, which could prove who breached the terms, but that option has passed now.

It's not good but they were doing you (as a block) a favour, and if you (as a block) can't keep to the terms, then the dogs will have to go. That's what contracts are for - to protect both sides. If there had been no dog mess, they wouldn't have had a case.

Totally appreciate this but they are denying the contract/agreement exists in the first place so we are apparently breaching our tenancy having any animals (also have an indoor cat and rabbit) despite the fact we have contracts for all 3. Why would they have given out/signed contracts if they hadn't given us permission??
The person has been reported several times and despite having no contracts/being over the allowed number of dogs no action has been taken, we have all towed the line and kept to the agreement :( 3 poos first thing in the morning is understandable, if the dogs go out after dark and you cant check for poos until its light any other time and i agree its unacceptable.
2 tenants actually take their dogs off the premises to the dog park to do their "business" but we all sit in the garden with our dogs so there's going to be the odd one.
 

Fides

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 August 2013
Messages
2,946
Visit site
But didn't you say you don't have a copy of the contracts? If you don't have a copy you have no proof they existed. Both parties should have copies, and without your copy you have no proof of the existence. If you do have a copy it will state about the poo removal and you have breached it - it's a no win situation :( as for the comment about poos at night - I manage to clean mine up. If not doing so meant I could lose my home I would make especially sure they were removed.
 

Montyforever

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 April 2009
Messages
5,706
Location
Kent
Visit site
But didn't you say you don't have a copy of the contracts? If you don't have a copy you have no proof they existed. Both parties should have copies, and without your copy you have no proof of the existence. If you do have a copy it will state about the poo removal and you have breached it - it's a no win situation :( as for the comment about poos at night - I manage to clean mine up. If not doing so meant I could lose my home I would make especially sure they were removed.

No i don't they took them and told us they would send us a copy - never did :( cctv wont make a difference, they don't care who's doing it we are treated as a block rather than individual flats. We will be moving after this .. Even though we've lived here for nearly 20 years! They've kept the cards in their hands and now we have no evidence.

We've had a meeting today as a block, and decided to fight it. At least to let our friend and neighbour keep her dog as he's all she's got and she has a private garden so doesn't even use the communal garden. It will destroy her to loose him :( one of the dogs will have to be pts as he is completely unable to be rehomed as he's terrified of other people/dogs. Its actually only 2 weeks we've got from the date of the letter. How do you responsibly rehome a dog in that time?!
 

Fides

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 August 2013
Messages
2,946
Visit site
The other option is to keep the dogs and let them try to evict you - if all of you fight the evictions together saying that you were all given contracts. Other than that how could you fight it? You could take them to court but that would cost thousands :( I don't want to be negative but you are in a hard place right now.

What does your tenancy agreement say about pets? That should have been updated at the time of contracts.
 

Montyforever

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 April 2009
Messages
5,706
Location
Kent
Visit site
The other option is to keep the dogs and let them try to evict you - if all of you fight the evictions together saying that you were all given contracts. Other than that how could you fight it? You could take them to court but that would cost thousands :( I don't want to be negative but you are in a hard place right now.

What does your tenancy agreement say about pets? That should have been updated at the time of contracts.

We've all got letters staying its a dog friendly block, which they are still denying. Going to go speak to the organ grinder rather than the monkeys on Monday. They should have it on record that its a dog friendly block, if they don't its a mistake on their part. Im aware it probably wont help, but we can't do nothing :( We cant risk eviction, i have a very young little sister and most of the other residents have kids too so wont risk it either.

Tenancy agreement says we are allowed up to 3 dogs so long as they are under dog contracts and don't cause disruption to other tenants (eg constant barking)
 

ChesnutsRoasting

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 December 2009
Messages
3,353
Visit site
You need to get your own evidence. I know it sounds underhand, but gather together the five other tenants & together collect evidence - film, photos, a diary etc of her dogs defecating. Also a visit to CAB should be helpful re legal advice. One bad apple should not be allowed to upset the apple cart. Show the HA this thread aswell.
 

BBH

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 April 2007
Messages
9,357
Visit site
I would fight it, you can't all be wrong about knowing it was a dog friendly block. Collective action is more powerful than fighting individually . Make a fuss , call the local papers , radio to say how devastated you all are to find yourselves in this situation. Really highlight the promises you've made to overcome the objection. Why should all you responsible owners suffer for the actions of one person. Why aren't they evicting the lady causing the problems.

Whether you are legally wrong is irrelevant as any outcome will take months / years etc to come to judgement and it'll give you breathing space to find somewhere else if needs be.
 

Montyforever

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 April 2009
Messages
5,706
Location
Kent
Visit site
I would fight it, you can't all be wrong about knowing it was a dog friendly block. Collective action is more powerful than fighting individually . Make a fuss , call the local papers , radio to say how devastated you all are to find yourselves in this situation. Really highlight the promises you've made to overcome the objection. Why should all you responsible owners suffer for the actions of one person. Why aren't they evicting the lady causing the problems.

Whether you are legally wrong is irrelevant as any outcome will take months / years etc to come to judgement and it'll give you breathing space to find somewhere else if needs be.

We are going to do whatever we can!
Unfortunately just heard that a certain tenant is going up there Monday to no doubt have a raging fit at them .. That's really going to help argh! :(
 

twiggy2

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 July 2013
Messages
11,401
Location
Highlands from Essex
Visit site
The other option is to keep the dogs and let them try to evict you - if all of you fight the evictions together saying that you were all given contracts. Other than that how could you fight it? You could take them to court but that would cost thousands :( I don't want to be negative but you are in a hard place right now.

What does your tenancy agreement say about pets? That should have been updated at the time of contracts.

this is what I would do and look to move in the meantime, I would and have gone through real tough times to keep my dogs
 

Montyforever

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 April 2009
Messages
5,706
Location
Kent
Visit site
this is what I would do and look to move in the meantime, I would and have gone through real tough times to keep my dogs

We are asking around friends to take him in the short term after we have seen and spoken to the person who sent this letter (new housing officer) and the old housing officer who approved it as a dog friendly block (going to hunt him down for answers!)
If we have to move we will, but i know people who have been on the waiting list for years. My mum cant afford to rent privately and i cant afford to live on my own at the moment due to my own health issues. He was first and foremost taken on as an unregistered disability dog for me when i was agoraphobic and panicked the minute i was left alone, he's done so much for me. I owe the little git everything really, he got me out of my rut!

Hopefully if push comes to shove a friend can take him on permanently, he's offered before and it would be an ideal home for him. Barney loves him too. But cant rely on that until we've spoken to him!

Whatever happens we will fight for my neighbour to keep ty, she has her own garden so none of this is her fault! She's recently lost her husband and ty is all she has left, if she looses him i dread to think what will happen :( all.of us are in agreement over that. The dog upstairs will be pts as he's unpredictable and has to be kept away from kids etc so would be a disaster waiting to happen in the wrong hands. The other 3 are staffs, and we all know where staffs end up :(

Ill be gutted if we have to loose Barn, but so long as he's in the right home ill be happy!
 

BBH

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 April 2007
Messages
9,357
Visit site
That's another string to your bow, go down the disability route. Get confirmation of his importance from your doctor and I'd be amazed if a housing association took on a lady who relies on her dog for health issues.
 

_GG_

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 August 2012
Messages
9,037
Location
Gloucester
Visit site
Ok MF...there are a few ways I would go to war on this and I do mean go to war. Don't fight or attack...they are reactionary...war is planned and calculated and you need to have a plan here.

1/ Call the HA first thing Monday morning and tell them that the other tenant is going to be calling them. Tell them that you have authority to speak on behalf of the other tenants and you all disassociate yourselves with her and any of her actions. Ask for the name of the person you speak to and ask for an email address, either that persons or another HA email address and email a letter of disassociation to them to get it on record.

2/ Contact the National Housing Federation and the HCA (Homes and Communities Agency) and ask for advice.

3/ Make an appointment with your local CAB office

4/ Make an appointment with your GP to discuss, as BBH says, the possibility of a medical reference attesting to the importance of your dog to your mental and physical health or....possibly, something along the disability line as BBH says.

5/ Write to the head of your local HA, cc it to the contacts you already have AND your local MP. When you cc in the next person up the hierarchy, they cannot and will not ignore you. Go by the advice given by the CAB, NHF and HCA and lay out concisely, what has happened. Include copies of the letters you received saying that it was now a dog friendly block and give them 14 days to respond. Basically, add any information you receive from your GP, say that you do not wish to make a big thing out of this, but, if it comes to it, you will be left with no choice but to use any media means available to you to secure support in your case.

I believe that it is against the law in England and Wales to withold a tenancy contract, so check this with the CAB. If it is the case, by law, they have to send you copies of any amendments to a contract, so if you have letters confirming the change to a dog friendly block, but not the contracts containing that update, they have failed you.

Knowledge of cold hard facts are your weapons in this war...not anger, frustration or retaliation. Be calm, be consistent, be ALWAYS polite, disassociate yourselves from the problem tenant and use what you learn from the regulatory bodies and the CBA to win yourselves both time and a successful outcome.

Do not re-home your dogs, I absolutely believe you can win this. You need to call a meeting with the other tenants and all stand as a united front in this. It is very tempting to go down the emotive route and try to appeal to their better nature, but don't. Stick to the facts as they are. They might personally be very sympathetic to you and your neighbour who lost her husband, but no matter how sympathetic the individual, it will not affect the official decisions, so they have to be manipulated with fact and authority.

The emotion of it should only be used if you do need to go to media, but do not do that without legal advice and do give the HA a period of time to resolve this to your satisfaction before doing anything like that.

Don't get angry, get organised.

Good luck xx
 

Clodagh

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 August 2005
Messages
24,948
Location
Devon
Visit site
Best of luck wth the fight but also, if it was me, I would poo pick the whole lawn twice a day to clear up all the mess, it would be worth it to stay there and keep my dog.
 

JillA

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 May 2007
Messages
8,166
Location
Shropshire
Visit site
I agree with -GG- - explore the discussions etc before getting adversive. Speak to the HA, take along your letters as evidence, tell them about the neighbour who isn't towing the line and be prepared to let their parent body know (I think it is the Housing Trust but you can find that out).
 

Montyforever

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 April 2009
Messages
5,706
Location
Kent
Visit site
Ok MF...there are a few ways I would go to war on this and I do mean go to war. Don't fight or attack...they are reactionary...war is planned and calculated and you need to have a plan here.

1/ Call the HA first thing Monday morning and tell them that the other tenant is going to be calling them. Tell them that you have authority to speak on behalf of the other tenants and you all disassociate yourselves with her and any of her actions. Ask for the name of the person you speak to and ask for an email address, either that persons or another HA email address and email a letter of disassociation to them to get it on record.

2/ Contact the National Housing Federation and the HCA (Homes and Communities Agency) and ask for advice.

3/ Make an appointment with your local CAB office

4/ Make an appointment with your GP to discuss, as BBH says, the possibility of a medical reference attesting to the importance of your dog to your mental and physical health or....possibly, something along the disability line as BBH says.

5/ Write to the head of your local HA, cc it to the contacts you already have AND your local MP. When you cc in the next person up the hierarchy, they cannot and will not ignore you. Go by the advice given by the CAB, NHF and HCA and lay out concisely, what has happened. Include copies of the letters you received saying that it was now a dog friendly block and give them 14 days to respond. Basically, add any information you receive from your GP, say that you do not wish to make a big thing out of this, but, if it comes to it, you will be left with no choice but to use any media means available to you to secure support in your case.

I believe that it is against the law in England and Wales to withold a tenancy contract, so check this with the CAB. If it is the case, by law, they have to send you copies of any amendments to a contract, so if you have letters confirming the change to a dog friendly block, but not the contracts containing that update, they have failed you.

Knowledge of cold hard facts are your weapons in this war...not anger, frustration or retaliation. Be calm, be consistent, be ALWAYS polite, disassociate yourselves from the problem tenant and use what you learn from the regulatory bodies and the CBA to win yourselves both time and a successful outcome.

Do not re-home your dogs, I absolutely believe you can win this. You need to call a meeting with the other tenants and all stand as a united front in this. It is very tempting to go down the emotive route and try to appeal to their better nature, but don't. Stick to the facts as they are. They might personally be very sympathetic to you and your neighbour who lost her husband, but no matter how sympathetic the individual, it will not affect the official decisions, so they have to be manipulated with fact and authority.

The emotion of it should only be used if you do need to go to media, but do not do that without legal advice and do give the HA a period of time to resolve this to your satisfaction before doing anything like that.

Don't get angry, get organised.

Good luck xx

Really helpful, thank you GG x
 

Montyforever

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 April 2009
Messages
5,706
Location
Kent
Visit site
Getting more suspicious by the minute! Have been on the phone all day to the housing society, all the correspondence except for our original letter asking for it to be changed into a dog friendly block and a few dates in the guy who came out several times to confirm it, diary. Its all either been deleted from their system or not been put on in the first place.

They are going to get the guy to ring us in the next 24hrs to see if he can explain what exactly has happened. Will be treated seriously if he never recorded it all in the first place which is good to hear!

The new housing officer who sent us the letter .. Is not in work today. Bit suspicious sending a letter to arrive on a Saturday then taking the following Monday off!
 

View

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 March 2014
Messages
3,662
Location
exiled Glaswegian
Visit site
They are going to get the guy to ring us in the next 24hrs to see if he can explain what exactly has happened. Will be treated seriously if he never recorded it all in the first place which is good to hear!

The new housing officer who sent us the letter .. Is not in work today. Bit suspicious sending a letter to arrive on a Saturday then taking the following Monday off!

That's promising - keep documenting all conversations, and confirm what you discussed/agreed with whom.

However, experience has taught me over the years that coincidence is usually just a coincidence and not the conspiracy that it's all too easy to imagine. Honestly, I often send out correspondence without realising when it might land on a doorstep and I won't be in that day to deal with a phone call. And there is no point in me trying to time it either because either
a) Royal Mail will take four days instead of three to deliver it or
b) The recipient may not receive it until after I have gone home for the day or
c) The recipient may be away for a couple of days
 

Montyforever

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 April 2009
Messages
5,706
Location
Kent
Visit site
That's promising - keep documenting all conversations, and confirm what you discussed/agreed with whom.

However, experience has taught me over the years that coincidence is usually just a coincidence and not the conspiracy that it's all too easy to imagine. Honestly, I often send out correspondence without realising when it might land on a doorstep and I won't be in that day to deal with a phone call. And there is no point in me trying to time it either because either
a) Royal Mail will take four days instead of three to deliver it or
b) The recipient may not receive it until after I have gone home for the day or
c) The recipient may be away for a couple of days

Yeah i know :) but several blocks have received the letter on the same day from what i can work out so can imagine there will be a fair few phone calls/turning up at the head quarters today! I think id be legging it if i was her :p
 

Montyforever

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 April 2009
Messages
5,706
Location
Kent
Visit site
Spoken to the organ grinder today .. Finally! Had to ring them again as she had "no intention of even reading the email from customer services and was not wavering in her decision" back tracked pretty quick when we said we are seeking legal advice and let us explain the situation. She has agreed that if we can find out what's happening with the problem persons dogs, and can get her to agree to rehome them within the next week or so .. She will reconsider her decision.
Difficult situation for us now but one we have to try as apparently they cannot stop one tenant individually but have to do the same with the whole block?
It still all sounds pretty dodgy to me, and i have no idea if she will keep to this "agreement" but have recorded the call and have the name of her boss too so will be taken to him if she doesn't stick to it. Frankly i still think its fighting a loosing battle, she insisted there is only one dog friendly block on our road when there are at least 3 others that we know of!
 

_GG_

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 August 2012
Messages
9,037
Location
Gloucester
Visit site
Spoken to the organ grinder today .. Finally! Had to ring them again as she had "no intention of even reading the email from customer services and was not wavering in her decision" back tracked pretty quick when we said we are seeking legal advice and let us explain the situation. She has agreed that if we can find out what's happening with the problem persons dogs, and can get her to agree to rehome them within the next week or so .. She will reconsider her decision.
Difficult situation for us now but one we have to try as apparently they cannot stop one tenant individually but have to do the same with the whole block?
It still all sounds pretty dodgy to me, and i have no idea if she will keep to this "agreement" but have recorded the call and have the name of her boss too so will be taken to him if she doesn't stick to it. Frankly i still think its fighting a loosing battle, she insisted there is only one dog friendly block on our road when there are at least 3 others that we know of!


No, no, no...you are not responsible for dealing with the other tenant. I would take this above her head immediately and question why it is deemed acceptable to ask tenants to police other tenants and you are now left with no choice but to pursue legal advice unless you receive it in writing in the next 48 hours that THEY will deal with the other tenant and enforce the contract as you have previously said that you all got permission to keep a dog and she didn't.

Totally unacceptable in my opinion.
 

Montyforever

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 April 2009
Messages
5,706
Location
Kent
Visit site
No, no, no...you are not responsible for dealing with the other tenant. I would take this above her head immediately and question why it is deemed acceptable to ask tenants to police other tenants and you are now left with no choice but to pursue legal advice unless you receive it in writing in the next 48 hours that THEY will deal with the other tenant and enforce the contract as you have previously said that you all got permission to keep a dog and she didn't.

Totally unacceptable in my opinion.

Thanks, exactly what my first thoughts were! She's still insisting the dog contracts don't exist though, although we have a guy upstairs who has carers and they said they file all the letters so should have a copy of all of the correspondence at their office so should have copies by Saturday!
It just gets dodgier everytime we talk to someone
 

_GG_

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 August 2012
Messages
9,037
Location
Gloucester
Visit site
Thanks, exactly what my first thoughts were! She's still insisting the dog contracts don't exist though, although we have a guy upstairs who has carers and they said they file all the letters so should have a copy of all of the correspondence at their office so should have copies by Saturday!
It just gets dodgier everytime we talk to someone

What you are experiencing is a HA that is desperately trying to cover their arses and cover up the fact that one of their own has not done things properly. Good luck getting the letters from the care agency, but don't mention those to anyone at the HA just yet...wait until you have copies in your hand.
 

Montyforever

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 April 2009
Messages
5,706
Location
Kent
Visit site
What you are experiencing is a HA that is desperately trying to cover their arses and cover up the fact that one of their own has not done things properly. Good luck getting the letters from the care agency, but don't mention those to anyone at the HA just yet...wait until you have copies in your hand.

Will wait :) yep i think that's exactly the issue, still waiting to hear back from the guy who did the original dog contracts etc so think the blame is with him (the HA policy is to call back in 24hrs, it was 24hrs at 11am today!) going to make an appointment with CAB asap :)

Eta - lady at customer services admitted original guy is "pretty lapse with paperwork and probably forgot to scan it into the system" ... Another fault there!
 
Last edited:
Top