Urgent help needed on saddle / saddlery problem please

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aregona

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well as usual nothing is going to plan. Im desperatly seeking some advise from all the wise ppl on the forum and dont have much time to make a decision.

After my mares change in character again at monmouth novice on saterday i had a back person out again (mare was treates on tuesday last week too) just incase she had hurt her back in between the last treatment and the event.
Back person came out and was surprised she was so sore again after such a recent treatment. she asked to check my saddles that were fitted originally brandnew 4 yrs ago by a master saddler (very well known) and checked twice a year ever since. they were checked in april and again in august this year as we were having so many problems with her back

To our amazment the saddle was sat so far to the right its not funny. I have the bates caprilli CC with cair and the panels underneath are different sizes!!!!!
I tok it back to the saddler who said it is leather, therefore panels can stretch and the air bags can then move making the panels different sizes!
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After paying so much for this saddle and having it checked so often i cannot belive this has happend.
I have been 'fighting' to keep my mares back right all year not to mention the worsening DR marks and now i guess i know why, my poor mare.

anyway, the saddler wants me to take the mare over, he is going to put the air bags where they should be and then add extra flock to the right hand side to level up the saddle until my mares back is even agian and then remove the flock.
only problem is im not sure if i will trust the cair anymore???? i never ever thought this could happen in the first place. The saddler wil off course not admit that the saddle has cause all her problems and says it is a 'chicken and egg' senario, was her back uneven causing the saddle to go wrong or vice versa, i know which one i belive.

anyway, i have no money to buy a new saddle but really dont want to use the one i have again so im desperatly after some of your opinions and advise. i have 2 more novices coming up in the next 4 weeks and no saddle to ride her in
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I have added some pics to see what you all think, please reply
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Because cair is air around a piece of foam in a sealed bag, the fact that the horse is asymetrical wont actually affect the air bag except there woud be more pressure on the side that has least muscle. In a flocked saddle the flock would compress more on one side but cair shouldnt because its a sealed bag. Unless there is a layer of foam outside of the cair system, which could compress more on one side.

However, your saddle is 4 years old so it may just have deteriorated and there could be a leak in the bag on one side.
I certainly wouldnt ride in it again until its sorted out. I would get the saddler to check the airbags themselves, not just the position. Also get the tree checked as it may be twisted.

Personally i would change the saddle if at all possible. Can you take a picture from the side? Just my opinion but from the photos it looks like the saddle is very high at the front
 
adding 2 more pics now. the airbags have been checked, the saddle is still with the saddler as i said is was fit for the bin as it is, i will not use it on her agian as it is, id rather attempt no saddle! it is in the narrowest gullet, the saddler did this as it tips me forward in anyting widder
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I agree, cair is like a crisp packet. Flair is a much better system because it can be adjusted and it is more like a half filled water balloon than a crisp packet, i.e. the air can move and absorb pressure and can also mould to the horse.
 
Our posts crossed.

That is far too narrow for your horse! no wonder you have had trouble. Bates/wintecs have banana shaped trees, so often if you have the correct width at the front, they sit up at the back. Yours is only sitting on the horse at the back because it is too narrow in front. It tips you forward when you widen it because of the shape of the tree.

Look at the angle of the seat, totally wrong. All your weight is being pushed to a point just behind the saddle flap. The seat should sit level, even if the tree is styled for a high wither.

Change the saddle, sorry but it doesnt fit and never will. changing the front to the correct width will just make the back lift up IMO. Your horses back/dressage marks have been trying to tell you something!

Good luck
 
my tb mare has really high withers, and my Master Saddler said that he would NEVER put anything narrower than a medium fit on her, he'd rather see it made up with flocking, prolite, etc. she is in a medium tree with extra deep gullet, etc.
i agree with teddyt, that saddle doesn't look as if it fits at all.
i'd put a medium fit saddle on that you really trust the tree and flocking of.
Horses have flat backs, therefore flattish trees are best, according to all the saddlers i've ever interrogated about it! also, you don't have the bridging/rocking problems that banana-shaped trees give.
shame you're not closer as i have 1 sitting gathering dust in the tackroom which i'd guarantee would be 100% better than yours. poor mare. poor you. it's a nightmare when you can't trust your saddle or saddler.
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Oh dear, yet another Master Saddler who cannot fit a saddle for toffee
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Sorry, I agree with the others, the saddle does not and never will fit your horse, even if the wonkiness is sorted out.

I have just taken some pictures of a pony with the worst saddle damage I have ever seen - I pointed it out to the owner 12 weeks ago, she took pony and saddle to a "Master Saddler", who told her the saddle fitted well and there were no problems with the pony's back. The pony actually has a saddle shaped indentation in the muscle tissue, and you can't touch its back without it hitting the ceiling
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So much for the Master Saddler
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I would strongly recommend you change your saddle asap
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The gullet in your saddle is too narrow and therefore it can not sit 'down' on your horse but sits on top. This is not just the front of the gullet but all along where it sits along the spine. I had the same with my horse though I had a stubben siegfried. Had loads and loads and loads of back trouble with my lad not just from the saddle but it sure didnt help! Finally got a different saddler who explained to me about the different gullets etc. She said not to go for a stubben or kieffer on my horse as the gullets are too narrow in these. I am currently selling all my saddles and am going for an albion. I am now borrowing a wintec pro dressage with wide gullet until I can afford a new one. I really miss not having a jumping saddle but not worth the risk. The wintec is slightly too wide but saddler said that was ok. She said if your riding multiple horses with the same saddle always fit the widest horse then the others can just use an extra pad. Not ideal but will work when you cant afford a saddle for every horse. Try and sell your saddle and buy a differebt one would be my advise as otherwise you'll ruin your horse completely!! Forget the competitions for now cause if you have no horse it will be worse alltogether!! Spend the money not on entry fees but on a different saddle, I learnt the hard way and my horse was out of action for nearly 8 months with all his backproblems. goodluck!
 
I've got Cair and really like - had a lot of improvement since moving from a flocked saddle. However, I am lucky to have a horse with an even 'regular' shaped back.

I can quite imagine how it would be difficult to fit for an uneven shape back.

When I bought mine I looked into the guarantee for Cair systems and they are only guaranteed for 5 years but the Cair panels/sections can be replaced by the trained saddler.
 
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Oh dear, yet another Master Saddler who cannot fit a saddle for toffee
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there are some great saddle fitters out there, it's difficult to sort them out though.
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it's taken a long time but i now only trust 1 opinion on saddles - the horse's. s/he is the REAL expert.
if they are used to a very comfy saddle, they'll soon tell you, but unfortunately some are extremely tolerant, or extremely resigned, and it can take a long time for their symptoms to whisper through.
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Oh dear, yet another Master Saddler who cannot fit a saddle for toffee
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there are some great saddle fitters out there, it's difficult to sort them out though.
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it's taken a long time but i now only trust 1 opinion on saddles - the horse's. s/he is the REAL expert.
if they are used to a very comfy saddle, they'll soon tell you, but unfortunately some are extremely tolerant, or extremely resigned, and it can take a long time for their symptoms to whisper through.
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I totally agree with you Kerilli - I have lost count of the number of people who I have seen with "saddle issues" who say to me "if only my horse could talk" and I reply (mildly I promise
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) "He/she has been screaming at you that there is something wrong!" - most people seem to think it is a behavioural problem
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this is the problem, it is a symptom manifesting itself as a behavioural issue.
there aren't many bad/evil horses out there, most of them are happy to try to interpret what we ask and do it to the best of their abilities, more or less, imho.
but when the interface between horse and rider is completely ******, i really do feel for them.
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I think saddle fitting is an art and nothing is as black and white as the forum makes it out to be

Do your weight to one side? Have you squished the panels? Well its worth thinking about. A wonky rider is the primary source of most problems!

Plus horses are not symmetrical, so putting that perfect saddle on a wonky horse, may mean it can sit to one side even if everything is A ok with the saddle.

I don't actually think your saddle looks that bad considering its not girthed up, take a look at the amerigo DJ not girthed up:
http://www.amerigosaddles.ch/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=31

Are you using much padding under the saddle?
 
only a thin numnah to keep the saddle clean as instructed by my saddler. i have felt like im compensating my balance when riding in this particular saddle but as i have 3 other horses and a DR for this horse i do not feel like it on any of the others. But the others are 16.2hh plus TB types and this mare is only 15.2hh CB x TB so as she does not follow my usual trend of horses i thought it was just me.

After spending so much time and money i never dream't the saddle would be at fault and so yes i unfortunately put it down to my 'rude' little mare being a madam. i quite like the look of the albions, they seem to fit very well.

as you are all so cleaver, another question. she also has an ideal suzanna 17.5''. she is 15.2hh, short - rug size 6'0''-6'3'' depending on the rug. also fitted by the saddler, whats the chances it is too long in the back for her?
 
I would say there is a chance that a 17.5 could be too long. You need to put the points of the tree behind the shoulders. Feel for the shoulders, dont just go by eye. Then check to see if the saddle extends beyond the last rib.

Cotswold- i have to strongly disagree. Girthed up or not, the saddle looks awful to my eyes! It is far too narrow and there will be pressure points under the tree points and just behind the flap because the saddle is tilted backwards. I dont think your example of the amerigo fits either, although it has a more level seat than the bates in this thread. However it is off the horses back at the back, meaning it will rock like a rocking horse. The saddle should be like this (-) not like this (\) or this (/) or this (U)!

The saddler made a very schoolboy error, which most horse owners make but arguably thats not their job. Thinking the width at the front is all there is to fitting a saddle. The rider felt tipped forward 'Easy, just lift the front'! So then the horse cant move its shoulders and instead of pressure being spread over as wide an area as possible it is concentrated on four points. No wonder the horse 'misbehaved'.

OP- sorry that you have been advised so badly. I hope you manage to find another saddle
 
My opinion is:

- forget cair, flair etc. They magnify any problems and sometimes cause there own problems.

- look for a wider saddle with a flatter tree. I find Barnsby's good for high withers but still a fairly flat tree.

-listen to saddlers, but trust no-one except your horse.
 
I have to say that I AM a fan of cair....

However the airbags can squish or deflate, and this may well be what has happened to yours. They are easily replaced (have to be sent to bates though) for about £130 (though yours may still be just within its warranty).

Our mare's bates GP went from needing a med plate to a narrow one and was still too low in front. I did a bit of research on the bates/cair websites, and then took saddle to the saddler I bought it off. He agreed that both front airbags had deflated significantly (fortunately both by roughly the same amount) and saddle was sent off to bates. Returned within a week with all airbags replaced, and I am back to the med gullet plate and a properly fitting saddle again.

TBH - I think your saddler is the problem rather than the saddle.

Good luck.

Fiona
 
All i can say is that I am in a similar position at the moment with my 18 month old sue Carson saddle, so you have my full sympathies. I had the bates caprilli cc, same as yours, for one of my TB's. I found mine did exactly the same thing as yours after I had had the saddle for about 4 years! So maybe a problem that this paritcular saddle gets. I thought mine went like that because my mare is very wonky, after an old injury she aquired in racing, now i'm thinking differently! Have you spoken to bates England directly, when my 4 yr rolled on my 5 yo bates GP i gave them a call, and they said to send the saddle to them, which I did. I got a call the next day tellig me the tree was fine, just the changable gullet was a bit bent, so the replaced it, and sent the saddle back. I got my saddle back in 4 days from sending it to bates, and they didn't charge me a penny, even tho I told them my horse had rolled in it. That is what I call good service! Wish the same could be said about Sue Carson!
 
Charlimouse - very interesting. my saddle was also in the med gulet when first fitted and now four years on in a narrow plate and still too wide so in april this year the saddler added small padds in the front to lift it some more. he is adament the cair bags are fine, he has done a lot of work with bates testing the saddles i believe so in theory he should really know when the cair bags are still in working order or not.

All i can say is this is a nightmare and you guys have prity much cleared up all the niggling doubts i had. I was not that happy about the route the saddler is going down hence the reason for the post and now i diffinatly know its not right.
will try and ring bates in the morning and see what they have to say about it, just as i think i deserve an answer from them as to what has gone so badly wrong with my saddle and then off on the hunt to the other saddlers to see what they have in stock and try and swap the one i have once it has been returned from the saddler repairing it.

Until then i think it will be some bare back riding for me!!!!! do you think BE will let me compete with a prolite pad held secure with an over girth???????
 
Just a thought aregona but maybe because the saddle doesnt fit, the muscles have atrophied. This has lead to a narrower and narrower gullet which may hve just perpetuated the problem. Pressure cuts off blood flow to muscles and hence oxygen and nutrients. A muscle under such pressure can therefore not work correctly. With less muscle becomes even less ability to absorb pressure because you get closer to the skeleton. less muscle = less natural padding.

A horse can lose fat and need a narrower gullet but usually if they build muscle they need a wider one. So unless the horse is super super fit and is losing every ounce of spare fat (like a 4* eventer/racehorse) it is unusual to have to go so much narrower.

Your horses worsening performance and frequent back treatments say a lot to me. Maybe the fact that your saddler has done alot of work with bates makes him a fan, when the saddle just doesnt suit your horse and he hasnt seen it.
 
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