Urgent weanling trimming help please

[Rebels]

I have a TB foal, given to me as too small to prep who i've had for 8wks. Came unhandled except a beating at trim time with ear, neck and tail twitch to hold her down. Funnily enough she is quite an agressive filly around people! I've been doing as much handling as i can and can now pat her and pick up front feet mostly without getting kicked but she has broken several replica hand props around back feet. I doped her to be trimmed before to get her done safely but have been given 'advice' that im too soft, this is normal and just grab her and get her done. My first foal but goes against my gut instinct. Any advice, thanks

 

[DuckToller]

I know lots of people are against doping, but for all round safety - farrier, yours and hers - I would dope again to get them trimmed this time, and work on her handling as you have been doing to get her used to having her feet picked up, so that perhaps by the third trim she will be safer to handle.

It will take time, but it will be time well spent, because you know that being forceful with her won't work in the long term - she will become more aggressive and fearful of people, and you will end up with a 16.1hh massive problem!

Let's see what everyone else thinks...

 

[Maesfen]

No, I wouldn't dope at all, I really don't like how it's become the answer to everything; no wonder we are beginning very nearly to have a nation of ignorant and rude horses, particularly in the amateur sector. That's not a snobby outlook, it's plain fact, not very often that you get rude and ignorant horses in a well run yard that knows how to handle them; it's people pussy footing around them that causes rudeness, they need boundaries and to know that if you want to do anything with them that they do it, no questions which is easy when they've been brought up right from the start that they've never been allowed to be rude to people. By being aggressive she thinks she's the boss, you need to show her in no uncertain terms that you are, not her and if that means a quick sharp clout at the appropriate time then that is what it will take.
That aside, work on her handling and don't let her get away with anything even though she is small and you feel sorry for her. Be firm, no nonsense and do what you set out to do so that she knows you'll take no messing. Wear gloves and hat if you feel it's necessary but brush down her legs every day as far as you can go and keep repeating it every time you go into her stable or field; she'll soon get used to that, then start lifting gently off the floor, count a few seconds and put it down before she objects; keep repeating until you can hold it as long as you like, don't let her win, if she snatches it back simply pick it up again, never let her call the shots. When farrier comes, again be firm with her; she is going to stand and lift her feet up for him whatever it takes and if that means squashing her into a corner sobeit; it can be done without frightening her. I've always found that babies find it easier if they are up against the side of a wall so they can use it as a prop particularly for hinds being done.
Have to say I am surprised at the stud; if they are big enough to prep and send to the sales then they usually have decent people doing them; just because she is small is no excuse for not handling her while on the dam.

 

[elijahasgal]

If you can get some Sedalin from the vets, it takes the worst sting out of it, but they remember the experience, so its not as scary. but the adrenalin can overule it. The only reason that I would push it at all is the importance of straightness in the hoof growth on balancing their feet, and legs, but if it starts going wrong I wouldnt force the issue, and would do a lot more careful work with her. Also would get the farrier to make friends first, as she has had such a bad experience

 

[Rebels]

Maesfen- she weighed less than 33kg at birth, the only reason they let her survive was that it was a maiden mare. Mare was so protective they were kept apart from the other mares as she attacked them. When i got her she was very nervy but when pressurised would come at you with teeth and heels. So we have worked hard to get to the point where i can run my hands over her, pick up her front feet and last night i managed to run my hand down a hind without losing teeth. My issue is that we are improving rapidly but not fast enough to be easy tomorrow. In that respect am i better to pick my battles when i can be 100% sure it will turn out well. If it i had owned her since birth then yes, i would expect more (my others fine, including a 2yr old from the same stud that took months to touch her ears after the farrier beat her round he head with a rasp).
When you confine yours into a corner do you hold them by the headcollar or do you twitch something? Im not into ear twitching unless there is a limb hanging off but i know people diffef.

 

[Maesfen]

You've done very well to get where you are with her then, well done.

No, I certainly wouldn't twitch at least not with a rope/string one, even a humane one but you can easily hold an ear gently if you need anything else. I always use just a headcollar and lead then tend to stand where I can scratch withers or anywhere else they like while this nasty man has hold of their leg; usually they don't notice! Perhaps corner is the wrong word as the farrier has to have room to move their legs forward or back so a plain long wall is preferable and turn them around to do the other side even if he does want to do both fronts at a time and then the backs; it's well worth the effort. It's the only time I'll let them chew on the rope end too, anything to keep them occupied TBH.
As someone else says, it's well worth it if your farrier can make friends with her first; do you have others to be done at the same time as if so, perhaps he could spend a minute in with her to say hello and run his hands over her before he goes onto the next one and then come back to her last when he should have all the time in the world for her. While I won't take any messing, I never knowingly frighten or bully anything either as that way leads to disaster and set backs, quick results aren't worth that IMV as they only remember the bad, just a steady build up of repetition seems to work wonders.

 

[foxy1]

I wouldn't trim her until you have got her feet handled, if she were mine.

 

[Rebels]

Foxy1, i havent really got a choice, looks like one front leg is just starting to turn in a tad. Will be straight if trimmed so cant risk her being wonky otherwise i could end up with a stroppy broken foal.

 

[CBFan]

On this occasion, I would dope her. It then gives you another 6 weeks to work on her and get her confidence up before you have to think about it again. Some sedalin should do it.

I think under the circumstances it is best to make the experience as stress free as possible.

 

[foxy1]

Ah ok, fair enough. Although I have read that foals can turn a foot out as the chest widens and straighten up as they widen behind the elbows, that was the case with one of mine.
Best of luck

 

[JanetGeorge]

Ah ok, fair enough. Although I have read that foals can turn a foot out as the chest widens and straighten up as they widen behind the elbows, that was the case with one of mine.
Best of luck

They do! I've had a few whose front feet turn in and out on a monthly bass as they grew. We DID trim them to make sure the feet stayed balanced.

If this filly is stupid about back legs and kicks, I would get the hose on her back legs. I find that a VERY safe and simple way of desensitising back legs! They can kick and kick at the water - it stays there! After that, a soft rope passed around the fetlock, dust below the joint., Hold the ends. Pick up the foot with it and let her kick unil she gets bored.

 

[cundlegreen]

Time, time and more time! I know you say that you HAVE to get her done very soon, but better to leave several weeks even if she has got a slight turn, until she is much happier about the whole thing. I find that scratching is a very good distraction, and if all else fails, try getting hold of a fold of skin just in front of the shoulder, far better than twitching at this age. Sounds like she's learn't her behaviour towards you from her mother. If she came at me like that, I would really go in to her as another horse would, with my head lowered and stamp a foot at her. That will make nearly any foal run for it. This sort of behaviour really needs to be sorted out now. Its a balance between giving them some room as they are so young and nipping any bad habits in the bud. Good luck!

 

[AdorableAlice]

I went through the same problem a couple of months ago, with a yearling carthorse. His feet had never been touched when he landed with me. The fronts resembled shoe boxes and viewed from the side, made his fetlocks look like they had dropped. The hinds had not grown any where near as long.

He was very nervous and unhandled. I did sedate to get the fronts done (acp) purely because the quicker his limbs could be got straight the better. His feet did not turn in or out, but he is a big boy and the angle between the fetlock/pastern was huge. No sedation has been used after that first emergency trim.

The horse is not at all aggressive but he was petrified and as such kicked like fury when his hinds were touched. I have worked with him using a walking stick with a bit of vet wrap on the handle. I just keep putting the handle up and down his hinds, if he allows me to do it I remove the pressure, if he kicks it off I just keep putting it back on until he gives up. It has taken 4 months but the farrier can trim him all round now.

This is probably complete drivel, but my farrier showed me a trick he uses with tricky hinds. Rather than grab the fetlock or pastern area and lift the limb behind the horse, my farrier stands at the carthorse's hip facing backwards, he then puts his outside hand on the point of the hock, apparently the reaction of most nervous horses is to lift the limb forwards under the tummy, with his other hand he then gently grasps the toe and keeps the foot off the ground. He then gives the carthorse a moment to adjust to standing on 3 legs, and the farrier also turns himself round, still keeping a hand on the toe, remember the farrier still has not grabbed the leg, then he starts dressing the foot with the pinchers, still with the foot forward and by now on his knee, as the horse relaxes he starts to handle the fetlock/canon/pastern still with the foot off the ground, and eventually turns the limb and himself around again and works on it with the foot behind the horse. It was very interesting to watch, I can only assume my little carthorse feels less trapped if his legs are not touched until the foot is off the floor. He improves every time and no doubt the issue will fade altogether soon. The farrier also handles the carthorse's legs/feet everytime he is on the yard doing other horses, in the hope that repetition turns into boredom for the carthorse.

We had a foal with a club foot, she had to be trimmed every 2 weeks and I had exercises to do with her when she was little. The trimming was done every 2 weeks until she was about 6 months, then onto 4 weeks, she is 17 months now, the foot is fixed, but she got very peed off and became very rude with the farrier. She received a good smack and immediately gave up. We can do her in the paddock now, no issues and very polite.

 

[kinskycookie]

Hi, I have a weanling who has been quite hard work to touch/pick up his back feet. Managed to trim fronts but not back ones yet.

We have had the most sucess by using a rope. He didn't mind the rope around his leg at all (which helped). I passed it through and lifted foot with rope behind the fetlock as someone explained earlier. If he kicks out I am at a safe distance but can still maintain the pressure on him using the rope (not necessarily with foot lifted) until he is still again. I release the pressure on the rope when he is holding his foot up nicely

I progressed to holding the rope still, running my hand down his leg but then picking up foot with the rope. Then running hand down leg and picking foot up with hand. If he's having an off day I return to using the rope so never a battle! I also find it's helping him to balance himself as he cant put any weight on me when using the rope to pick feet up . . . and he is fairly unflappable with ropes/snakes around his legs

 

[Rebels]

Thank you for all of the advice. This is the first horse i have met where when you tell her off she comes back at you worse. She jumped onto my back the other night as i was picking up buckets so i turned round, stamped, yelled then she backed up 2 steps then flew at me with teeth, spun and went to kick. At that point she met a feed bucket across the backside and i chased her out of the group throwing more buckets (i didnt want to get too close). Mirrors the behaviour her mother displayed to people as well. To get her to accept any touch is progress, she plays ball up to a point but if she feels it isnt going her way then she kicks off. There is a certain art to our training sessions!

 

[Truly]

I would have done the same thing as you did.

I personally wouldn't take the time desensitising her...she isn't scared ...she's throwing a tantrum!

The sooner you get her respect the better...otherwise she will be bigger and harder to handle.

I would make sure your farrier has another strong experienced man with him to be able to hold on to her and not let go....without getting aggressive of course.
Sometimes like this situation you do need someone strong but is also calm and quiet that can hold her in a corner so your farrier can pick her feet up and hang because everytime she snatches a leg away or kicks out she has got her own way and you are back at square one.
I will often get my other half to hold onto the foals as sometimes I'm just not strong enough...I'm 5'1" and weigh 8st and he is 6'5" and weighs 15st !

I find after the first tantrum where they don't win...the next time is sooo much easier.
So even if they are throwing a hissy fit...carry on calmly and don't give up until they are still and you have got the job done.

Just because she is a 'special' foal don't treat her any different than other foals.
I have an orphan and don't let her get away with anything as I want her to grow up a nice well mannered normal horsey

 

[Rebels]

Quick update on foal. We trimmed both fronts after a short paddy followed by standing nicely (i did grab her neck when she went to create) but as we were trying to wipe back feet to see them she made really lashed out to the point she was going to get hurt so we wiped them off and did her fronts. Quite pleased with part of her behaviour but no way anyone could hold those hinds without hog tying her esp as she turned to kick after (yes, she was told off). Tried a firm slap but that met absolutely no response.

 

[First Time Mum]

My foal was well handled but when it came to back feet trim at weaning (was a superstar before) had a complete temper tantrum. We hooked a very soft rope around her back pastern and let her kick herself out then was totally fine to do. I would try this with her and see what the reaction is. It may take more than one attempt until she learns that kicking isnt going to get her anywhere and that she isnt going to get hurt.

 

[Worried1]

This has been very useful, thank you. Just acquired a young in handled colt, his feet are horrific!
Going to have to Sedalin him as although he's much better he's still pretty wild and I just can't leave his feet any longer.

 

[Rebels]

Worried1, i gave my filly Domosedan, its as strong as iv sedative and just knocks them out, mine fought Sedalin and it made her a danger to herself. Vet was quite happy to give it to me.

 

[Worried1]

Thank you Rebels, how big is your filly and what doseage? Muddles is barely 11hh and very underweight.

 

[Rebels]

She is around 12 hh,, had 1 1/4mls (then a nearby vet topped her up, she really isnt great with those legs!). Id ask your vet in case there is any problem with him being underweight. Found Domosedan to be very useful though.

 

[Worried1]

Thank you will let you know how we get on

 

[Sandstone1]

How did you get on with foal? just interested as in a simalar situation. Are vets happy to dope foals? Does it work? Im working on my foal but like you really need feet trimming asap.

 

[chrissie1]

Vets will dope foals, we had to have one doped to give plasma when he was less than 24 hours old. Another one is being done for a different reason (obviously) next Monday, he is 6 months old.

 

[Sandstone1]

Thanks, dont really want to do it. foot handling is coming on but feet do need doing now. Im thinking its bet to use sedative than foal having a bad experience.

 

[sallyf]

Thanks, dont really want to do it. foot handling is coming on but feet do need doing now. Im thinking its bet to use sedative than foal having a bad experience.

Better to use dope and get the job done properly than struggle and do a poor job ,with a bad experience

 

[hayinamanger]

Better to use dope and get the job done properly than struggle and do a poor job ,with a bad experience

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Gingerwitch]

At what age do most people start handling a foal's hooves ? or rather at what age should you start to handle a foal's hooves?

 

[Rebels]

When my filly was first done (after having her a few days) we doped her as she also had to get stitches out. The domosedan was fine for that but as soon as the farrier came near her the vet had to top her up with IV sedative in order to get her done safely. Didnt upset her at all and actually improved her, next time we did fronts without. As for the hinds i can't wait until the behaviourist meets her as I'm having no luck!